Author Topic: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k  (Read 8229 times)

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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2014, 10:01:29 AM »

Someone put the wrong bowl on carb 2. the 1 and 2 carbs (from left to right sitting on the bike) should have drain screws facing left. The 3 and 4 carbs should have drain screws facing right. Having a 3-4 bowl on your #2 carb won't impact performance, but it will make it more difficult to drain the bowl.

Ah, that explains it. Thanks. When I do the rebuild I'll put them back in the right place.


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1978 Honda CB550K

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2014, 12:11:03 PM »
Any idea which 4-1 headers I have then?  Curious if these ever came stock on the 550 or if the PO bought them somewhere else.
Definitely not stock.  I'd guess yours are MACs, as they are the cheapest aftermarket system available.

What I gathered by this paragraph is that a Honda stock 4-1 will be better for the street than a different "race" 4-1. And possibly...dare I say easier to tune? Or at lease give better results. Although maybe not because I'm changing the muffler from stock...
Let me introduce you to the concept of "systems".
The header and pipe make up an exhaust "system".  Technically, the exhaust valve, its timing, and port characteristics are included in that system.

If you change a part in the system, the behavior of the system changes overall, and the tuning changes vary in unpredictable ways unless you know what the characteristics of the components within the system were before and after the change.  In the stock muffler case, there are pressure characteristics, as well as baffle impulse reflection distances from the exhaust valve to consider.  An aftermarket muffler is unlikely to replicate those parameters on their build-to-a-price-point offering. 

The stock systems are easier to tune because Honda did all the characterization for you, and made a "recipe" to fit the parts of the system.
Change a part's characteristics and you change the recipe.  Restore to fit the recipe, and it works as originally predicted without much bother.

I feel comfortable in saying the MAC exhaust components, are built for easy, quick, and cheapest assembly parameters.  Pipe diameters, baffle reflection points as well as overall pipe pressure level are whatever happened to be assembled on the day of production.  Their part control measures are likely limited to a fixture, that holds the pieces in a position where they can fit on the bikes they intend to have them fit, and the overall end product looks like what they show in the catalog (very artsy!).

Any other advice for a starting point as far as jets go or the above posts are as good a place to start as any?
You mean without knowing which exhaust you will eventually choose or it's characteristics?

OK then, a W.A.G.  Main jet; 100-102, Slide needle; 2nd clip position from bottom, #42 pilot jets,  IMS at 3 -4 turns out.

I know you wouldn't do this at all, but if you could imagine you were a suffering art projecteer you'd do what? After a little wax poetic, that is.
Actually I might do this.   ...After an apocalyptic event that made proper parts unobtainium.  ;D

I was thinking about your statement that you wanted a finished bike that was unique and could call your own as original.  ...And the thread begins with asking tuning advise from someone whose has the same set up.
This forum is a hoot sometimes...   ;D

*Maybe I'm nit picking but I might feel a slight hesitation right off the line.

IS this occurring with what induction and what exhaust?

Anyway, the symptom description is that of classic too lean an idle mixture (caused by a pods change and/or loss of exhaust back pressure), possibly cured with more outward turns on the pilot screws.   However, the slide needle and main jet "leak" a bit at idle and larger orifices do have an effect on idle mixture.  Another adjustment to have an effect over all throttle positions, is the carb float bowl fuel level. 12.5mm brings the level upward and makes fuel enter the throat chambers more easily.

The rejet carb process is best begun with determining the correct main jet size.  This sets the maximum flow required for the engine from the carbs.
The two extremes are min. and max.  The pilot system sets the minimum, and the Main sets the maximum.  The slide needle addresses the throttle positions in between.

Mechanical slide carbs (without accelerator pumps) must be over rich at idle, as they naturally lean when the slide is first raised.  The slide raising not only makes more air available, it also allows outside air pressure to reach into the carb throats.  Since it is the differential pressure between what exists in the carb throat and outside air pressure that drives the fuel into the carb throat, reducing the differential pressure reduces fuel volume at the same time raising the slide makes more air available to the intake.  The result: stumble.  The cure: make the pilot mixture over-rich and limit the amount of throttle twist from the operator. 
The 77-78 PD carbs were very stingy on the pilot mixture to meet EPA exhaust sniff requirements.  The high pressure exhaust was used by Honda as a way of reburning hydrocarbons left over from the previous burn cycle.  Reburning allowed this otherwise stingy mixture to idle and accelerate smoothly.  Change the 77-78 high pressure exhaust to a low pressure system and the stock carb instantly provide less than needed fuel from the pilots, effectively leaning the idle mix and inducing throttle twist stumble.  PD carbs with the 42 pilots should have enough adjustment to restore over rich idle (much to the chagrin of the EPA and the majority of breathing mammals).  I'm not so confident about the PDs with #38 pilots, but it is worth a try to simply tweak the IMS.
Note that you may have to also stretch the pilot screw springs to keep the pilot screws from vibrating out of the carb body.

It is assumed that the bike's ignition system and valve adjustment are in proper working order.  And that the carbs are vacuum balanced for the engine.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2014, 02:30:27 PM »

Re:105's - misunderstood that you weren't running pods... My bad. What are your current carb settings? If you don't know, then if you do take them down, take notice of everything and start a log. Then as you go, you know how to adjust them.

Harisuluv has parts and is a great source of carb advice.

I don't know my current carb settings. And I already have a book that I'll be documenting everything I do. I was assuming that the carbs are stock but since the float bowls were messed with then they might have been altered. Plus, when I got the bike the PO had my 4-1 headers with an open "muffler" with no air filter. It idled very high, like 3500, but when I test rode it it didn't sputter or lag. When I got home with the bike I put the Uni foam filter in it and put the original exhaust back on that he gave me. Then it ran very nicely. So he MAY have altered the jetting to compensate for the lack of air filter plus free flowing exhaust, but I won't know until I open them up.


---
1978 Honda CB550K

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2014, 02:56:28 PM »

Any idea which 4-1 headers I have then?  Curious if these ever came stock on the 550 or if the PO bought them somewhere else.
Definitely not stock.  I'd guess yours are MACs, as they are the cheapest aftermarket system available.

What I gathered by this paragraph is that a Honda stock 4-1 will be better for the street than a different "race" 4-1. And possibly...dare I say easier to tune? Or at lease give better results. Although maybe not because I'm changing the muffler from stock...
Let me introduce you to the concept of "systems".
The header and pipe make up an exhaust "system".  Technically, the exhaust valve, its timing, and port characteristics are included in that system.

If you change a part in the system, the behavior of the system changes overall, and the tuning changes vary in unpredictable ways unless you know what the characteristics of the components within the system were before and after the change.  In the stock muffler case, there are pressure characteristics, as well as baffle impulse reflection distances from the exhaust valve to consider.  An aftermarket muffler is unlikely to replicate those parameters on their build-to-a-price-point offering. 

The stock systems are easier to tune because Honda did all the characterization for you, and made a "recipe" to fit the parts of the system.
Change a part's characteristics and you change the recipe.  Restore to fit the recipe, and it works as originally predicted without much bother.

I feel comfortable in saying the MAC exhaust components, are built for easy, quick, and cheapest assembly parameters.  Pipe diameters, baffle reflection points as well as overall pipe pressure level are whatever happened to be assembled on the day of production.  Their part control measures are likely limited to a fixture, that holds the pieces in a position where they can fit on the bikes they intend to have them fit, and the overall end product looks like what they show in the catalog (very artsy!).

Any other advice for a starting point as far as jets go or the above posts are as good a place to start as any?
You mean without knowing which exhaust you will eventually choose or it's characteristics?

OK then, a W.A.G.  Main jet; 100-102, Slide needle; 2nd clip position from bottom, #42 pilot jets,  IMS at 3 -4 turns out.

I know you wouldn't do this at all, but if you could imagine you were a suffering art projecteer you'd do what? After a little wax poetic, that is.
Actually I might do this.   ...After an apocalyptic event that made proper parts unobtainium.  ;D

I was thinking about your statement that you wanted a finished bike that was unique and could call your own as original.  ...And the thread begins with asking tuning advise from someone whose has the same set up.
This forum is a hoot sometimes...   ;D

*Maybe I'm nit picking but I might feel a slight hesitation right off the line.

IS this occurring with what induction and what exhaust?

Anyway, the symptom description is that of classic too lean an idle mixture (caused by a pods change and/or loss of exhaust back pressure), possibly cured with more outward turns on the pilot screws.   However, the slide needle and main jet "leak" a bit at idle and larger orifices do have an effect on idle mixture.  Another adjustment to have an effect over all throttle positions, is the carb float bowl fuel level. 12.5mm brings the level upward and makes fuel enter the throat chambers more easily.

The rejet carb process is best begun with determining the correct main jet size.  This sets the maximum flow required for the engine from the carbs.
The two extremes are min. and max.  The pilot system sets the minimum, and the Main sets the maximum.  The slide needle addresses the throttle positions in between.

Mechanical slide carbs (without accelerator pumps) must be over rich at idle, as they naturally lean when the slide is first raised.  The slide raising not only makes more air available, it also allows outside air pressure to reach into the carb throats.  Since it is the differential pressure between what exists in the carb throat and outside air pressure that drives the fuel into the carb throat, reducing the differential pressure reduces fuel volume at the same time raising the slide makes more air available to the intake.  The result: stumble.  The cure: make the pilot mixture over-rich and limit the amount of throttle twist from the operator. 
The 77-78 PD carbs were very stingy on the pilot mixture to meet EPA exhaust sniff requirements.  The high pressure exhaust was used by Honda as a way of reburning hydrocarbons left over from the previous burn cycle.  Reburning allowed this otherwise stingy mixture to idle and accelerate smoothly.  Change the 77-78 high pressure exhaust to a low pressure system and the stock carb instantly provide less than needed fuel from the pilots, effectively leaning the idle mix and inducing throttle twist stumble.  PD carbs with the 42 pilots should have enough adjustment to restore over rich idle (much to the chagrin of the EPA and the majority of breathing mammals).  I'm not so confident about the PDs with #38 pilots, but it is worth a try to simply tweak the IMS.
Note that you may have to also stretch the pilot screw springs to keep the pilot screws from vibrating out of the carb body.

It is assumed that the bike's ignition system and valve adjustment are in proper working order.  And that the carbs are vacuum balanced for the engine.

I don't really know how to do the multiple quote thing you did...let's try this:

You mean without knowing which exhaust you will eventually choose or it's characteristics?

In my first post I list the intake and exhaust changes I want to do.
I chose the Dime City Cycles 18" Reverse Cone Quiet Core muffler on the unknown, but probably MAC headers. K&N cone filter on plastic "plenum".
I know you can't know my exact setup's characteristics but hope that helps. Maybe more than a WAG?

Maybe I'm nit picking but I might feel a slight hesitation right off the line.
IS this occurring with what induction and what exhaust?

Airbox with Uni filter and stock chrome 4-4.

It is assumed that the bike's ignition system and valve adjustment are in proper working order.  And that the carbs are vacuum balanced for the engine.

That is all done except the carb balance. (I just recently built a manometer) I was debating just balancing them now or opening them up and cleaning them and checking if they're stock inside then balancing.
Let's say they're not stock but the bike runs fairly well. Would you recommend just using this as a starting point or changing the carbs to stock and use that as a starting point?


---
1978 Honda CB550K