Author Topic: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k  (Read 8193 times)

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Offline DaveBarbier

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Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« on: May 12, 2014, 04:35:55 AM »
So you guys can point me to the right post at anytime, but I looked around and couldn't find any info for my specific set up.

My bike is pretty much stock right now. Stock 4-4 chrome exhaust, stock air box with UNI filter. I have an unknown 4-1 header (maybe the stock 4-1 that came on some 550's? I don't know.) with an 18" Dime City Cycles Stainless Steel "Quiet-core" Universal Cone Muffler that I intend to put on the bike. I am also keeping the stock "plenum" that goes between the air box and carbs and putting a K&N filter directly on that with a bracket I made. See picture.

Where do you guys think I should be starting with jets and needles and all that stuff? Right now the bike feels like it runs well. Starts right up, idles good, revs good and has good power all throughout the RPM range.

I haven't opened up the carbs yet to make sure they're stock. The PO never said anything about them being altered and everything else is stock on the bike. My carbs are PD 46c.

Need any other info? I don't know much about carb tubing but am trying to learn as much as I can.





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1978 Honda CB550K

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2014, 04:41:19 AM »
Quote
Right now the bike feels like it runs well. Starts right up, idles good, revs good and has good power all throughout the RPM range.

Well, there's your answer.
Ride on.
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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2014, 04:48:34 AM »

Quote
Right now the bike feels like it runs well. Starts right up, idles good, revs good and has good power all throughout the RPM range.

Well, there's your answer.
Ride on.

But it's not subjectively "cool" enough! It has to be cooler. I'm doing this because I'm also moving the electrics under the seat and fitting a smaller battery. Cafe, minimalistic appearance, empty triangle under the seat with no side covers. I'm that kind of guy.


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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2014, 04:59:22 AM »
Ah, I see... you can expect quite some people that are interested in your stock 4 in 4.
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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2014, 05:28:35 AM »

Ah, I see... you can expect quite some people that are interested in your stock 4 in 4.

I know. After I get this new setup all situated I'll part with them. All the more reason for people to help me, haha. I won't use them so I'd rather they go to someone here.


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Offline Bankerdanny

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Re: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2014, 08:34:07 AM »
You will probably need to do some trial and error tuning (a pain since changing the jets with the carbs on the bike is very difficult).

I would assume you will need to bump your jets up a size or two. You can try just changing the needle position and idle air screws at first, but the '78's were tuned lean to begin with so I think you will probably not be able  to richen the mixture up enough with that alone.

Make your changes incremental, that is, don't change to many things at one time. And learn how to do a plug chop (search the forum, there are several threads on how to do it).
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 10:20:20 AM by Bankerdanny »
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Current: '76 CB750F. Previous:  '75 CB550F, 2007 Yamaha Vino 125 Scooter, '75 Harley FXE Superglide, '77 GL1000, '77 CB550k, '68 Suzuki K10 80, '68 Yamaha YR2, '69 BMW R69S, '71 Honda SL175, '02 Royal Enfield Bullet 500, '89 Yamaha FJ1200

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2014, 09:25:46 AM »
Ok, plug chop, that doesn't seem too difficult. I think I have a decent stretch of road with a commuter lot for that.

Have any good resources for jets that won't break the bank? I'm assuming you guys get a few different sizes all at once then start experimenting.

Before each plug chop do you always put in new plugs? Even if I'm doing like 10 plug chops? Seems like that can get expensive, ha.


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1978 Honda CB550K

Offline Gman

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Re: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2014, 10:15:39 AM »
Dibs on the exhaust.  If/when you decide to part with it, I'd be very interested.

With that said, be judicious in a) messing with a great running bike, b) parting with your exhaust on the chance you want to revert to stock.

Cheers,
G
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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2014, 04:41:45 AM »

Dibs on the exhaust.  If/when you decide to part with it, I'd be very interested.

With that said, be judicious in a) messing with a great running bike, b) parting with your exhaust on the chance you want to revert to stock.

Cheers,
G

I hear you, if it ain't broke don't fix it. But this can also give me time to learn hands on. I was one of those kids that took apart my fathers electronics and broke them and almost burn the house down.

And I will definitely be holding on to the exhaust for a little while after I get this rejecting and tuning done, just to be sure. But after that I'll ship it out.


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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2014, 04:42:31 AM »
Anyone else have a similar setup as I'm planning on doing that has experience that could potentially get me in the right ballpark?


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1978 Honda CB550K

Offline evanphi

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Re: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2014, 05:17:41 AM »
You won't get a quick fix. You have to experiment! Bankerdanny said it already.

You will probably need to do some trial and error tuning (a pain since changing the jets with the carbs on the bike is very difficult).

I would assume you will need to bump your jets up a size or two. You can try just changing the needle position and idle air screws at first, but the '78's were tuned lean to begin with so I think you will probably not be able  to richen the mixture up enough with that alone.

Make your changes incremental, that is, don't change to many things at one time. And learn how to do a plug chop (search the forum, there are several threads on how to do it).
--Evan

1975 CB750K "Rhonda"
Delkevic Stainless 4-1 Header, Cone Engineering 18" Quiet Core Reverse Cone, K&N Filter in Drilled Airbox
K5 Crankcase/Frame, K4 Head and Cylinders, K1 Carbs (42;120;1 Turn)

She's a mix-matched (former) basket case, but she's mine.

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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2014, 06:52:18 AM »
Ok, so just to be sure, what I'm ultimately looking for is no flat spots while accelerating and the plugs to be a light brownish toast color, right? My thoughts with not going to pods but rather utilizing the plastic "plenum" is that I won't have too far to go, as far as tuning goes. At least that what I've heard from a few people.

I've only rebuilt one set of carbs before so I need to do research on what exactly I'm supposed to change and why. On to the internets I go.

Thanks


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1978 Honda CB550K

Offline jamesbekman

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Re: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2014, 07:04:25 AM »
Dont mess with anything.  Just some gas treatment in to help clean out the carbs since its running good, plenty of people here will tell you what to use to combat the ethanol in our gas...  The only thing I would mess with is what you are doing and is what I want to do myself, disconnect the air fliter housing and run a single K&N air filter in the oval hole.  Im not sure what that bracket is going to do that you designed but I would like to hear and see how it goes for you.

Again...  Dont touch the carbs.... DONT touch the carbs.... Dont touch the carbs....

If you want more power get another bike, or buy a spare engine and build it while you ride your bike that runs good...


Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2014, 07:39:18 AM »

Dont mess with anything.  Just some gas treatment in to help clean out the carbs since its running good, plenty of people here will tell you what to use to combat the ethanol in our gas...  The only thing I would mess with is what you are doing and is what I want to do myself, disconnect the air fliter housing and run a single K&N air filter in the oval hole.  Im not sure what that bracket is going to do that you designed but I would like to hear and see how it goes for you.

Again...  Dont touch the carbs.... DONT touch the carbs.... Dont touch the carbs....

If you want more power get another bike, or buy a spare engine and build it while you ride your bike that runs good...

I'm essentially going to run a single K&N in the oval hole, but without the airbox around it. So it won't have as much restriction. The bracket will just interface the filter to the oval hole.

Are you saying don't change the exhaust either? Or change the exhaust but don't do any carb stuff?

I'm not looking for more power but instead a bike that I think looks "cooler". That's why I got the bike to begin with. Something to customize and make my own so I can be proud and have fun while learning more about bikes. I know there are two types of people here: go ahead and learn and try things out. And the other: don't mess with it, Honda did way more engineering and figuring out than we could ever do and they came up with this, so best not to change it.

I'm of the first mind set. Always have been, always will be. Not to say I don't like stock. I have a stock restored 74' CB125 that I love. But this 550 is a toy project.

Thanks for the insight, though. I seriously do appreciate it, but I am going to respectfully not heed your advice. Gods didn't make this bike, just people. And I am a person. I'm going to try and learn by doing.

Thanks


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1978 Honda CB550K

Offline jamesbekman

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Re: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2014, 08:03:13 AM »
Basically, cosmetically... do whatever you want.  If the bike is running fine, let it be that way till you finish everything else, then mess with the carbs if you would like.  When you do get to the point of making changes mechanically, change one thing at a time, then run the bike for alittle while, then change something else after a while and see how it responds etc... 

Its easy enough to put on a different gas tank and put a cafe seat on the bike...  If you are looking to change the looks id start there and learn about what all that entails.  Maybe have a go at painting her yourself, thats a whole rabbits hole in itself you can go down...  Fitting a fiberglass tank... that in itself poses some questions on just how are you mounting the dang thing etc....  Where are you going to hide the electrics on the bike, where are you going to get the wire for the electrics(do you want the wire coloring to match? can you solder etc), are you going to rewire anything or just extend the wiring to be able to have enough length to tuck it under your cafe seat...  where are you going to mount the battery?  Those nice shiny pictures on the internet are photoshopped, ever see a battery in those really cool ones?  You have to have a battery to run our bikes, just cause its kickstart doesnt mean a thing.  Where abouts are you going to put that battery if you are trying to go for the look you are going for?  Turn signals?  Tail light?  These are things you should be looking into first before ever messing with those carbs...  Just loosing weight on the bike is going to make the bike go faster....  Alluminum rims will reduce weight as well making your bike "faster"  I would look into those things first then get into looking into jetting your carbs and further tuning...  When you do get to that point, expect to not get it right over and over and over again and realize that you are learning every time you fail.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 08:06:16 AM by jamesbekman »

Offline Bankerdanny

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Re: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2014, 08:20:59 AM »
The tuning issue with pods is partially due to the lack of velocity stacks, which results in inconsistent airflow that can be difficult to tune for. Adapting the K&N to your existing airbox (which others have done as well) solves that issue.

I don't think that the K&N by itself will flow enough additional air to necessarily require richer jets and that brand of header by itself also doesn't usually require changing jets. However, the two combined plus the already lean setup of the stock carbs likely means a jet change.
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Current: '76 CB750F. Previous:  '75 CB550F, 2007 Yamaha Vino 125 Scooter, '75 Harley FXE Superglide, '77 GL1000, '77 CB550k, '68 Suzuki K10 80, '68 Yamaha YR2, '69 BMW R69S, '71 Honda SL175, '02 Royal Enfield Bullet 500, '89 Yamaha FJ1200

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2014, 04:30:27 PM »

Basically, cosmetically... do whatever you want.  If the bike is running fine, let it be that way till you finish everything else, then mess with the carbs if you would like.  When you do get to the point of making changes mechanically, change one thing at a time, then run the bike for alittle while, then change something else after a while and see how it responds etc... 

Its easy enough to put on a different gas tank and put a cafe seat on the bike...  If you are looking to change the looks id start there and learn about what all that entails.  Maybe have a go at painting her yourself, thats a whole rabbits hole in itself you can go down...  Fitting a fiberglass tank... that in itself poses some questions on just how are you mounting the dang thing etc....  Where are you going to hide the electrics on the bike, where are you going to get the wire for the electrics(do you want the wire coloring to match? can you solder etc), are you going to rewire anything or just extend the wiring to be able to have enough length to tuck it under your cafe seat...  where are you going to mount the battery?  Those nice shiny pictures on the internet are photoshopped, ever see a battery in those really cool ones?  You have to have a battery to run our bikes, just cause its kickstart doesnt mean a thing.  Where abouts are you going to put that battery if you are trying to go for the look you are going for?  Turn signals?  Tail light?  These are things you should be looking into first before ever messing with those carbs...  Just loosing weight on the bike is going to make the bike go faster....  Alluminum rims will reduce weight as well making your bike "faster"  I would look into those things first then get into looking into jetting your carbs and further tuning...  When you do get to that point, expect to not get it right over and over and over again and realize that you are learning every time you fail.

I totally know what you mean. And I'm pretty much there already. I built a custom leather seat, stripped my tank, altered the frame, fitted all LED's minus the headlight, cleaned all electrical connections. I'm going to change the battery over to a smaller lithium ion Shorai in the near future and mount it somewhere. I don't mind having it exposed.

The REAL reason other than aesthetics for doing exhaust and intake is that after that I can remove the side covers, which will make the bike significantly thinner. I'm only 5'5" so that'll make it easier to "taxi" the bike around my dirt driveway and parking lots. That was also the reason I made my custom thinner seat, so I would be closer to the ground.



I appreciate the knowledge drop. I don't think I'm reckless. I'm a Swede and we tend to do things more methodical, haha.

Thanks


---
1978 Honda CB550K

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2014, 04:35:23 PM »

The tuning issue with pods is partially due to the lack of velocity stacks, which results in inconsistent airflow that can be difficult to tune for. Adapting the K&N to your existing airbox (which others have done as well) solves that issue.

I don't think that the K&N by itself will flow enough additional air to necessarily require richer jets and that brand of header by itself also doesn't usually require changing jets. However, the two combined plus the already lean setup of the stock carbs likely means a jet change.

That's what I was thinking. Would it be horrible to just throw that stuff on and see what happens before a jet change?

I need to learn more about carbs and why we change jets to try and figure out what I need to do. Right now it feels like a shotgun, just throwing jets at it until it runs well. I wish there was a calculation I could do to get close.

I'm sure there's something written by Two Tired or Hondaman on here that can answer a lot of my questions. Just a matter of finding it.


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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2014, 07:29:40 PM »
The pod change reduces the amount of fuel delivered by the carbs.  Carb fuel delivery works on pressure differential, and if nothing else, shortening the duct between inlet and carb throat brings the pressure closer to what is impressed on the top of the fuel in the float bowl.  Less pressure differential = less fuel flow.  The air restriction difference, pods to air box, is an imaginary myth for RPMs outside of 1000 rpm from red line.  The pressure difference is very real though and why jets must become larger to restore the fuel volume delivery.

That said, the pressure drop characteristics across the filter membrane can easily vary from pod design to pod design.  If you know the pressure drop comparison between the stock design and the design being installed you might be able to approximate what needs to change regarding fuel delivery orifices.

The stock 4 to 4 exhaust has a little back pressure, which is useful for idle mixture settings.  But, there is only one reflection source (from the baffle) per each cylinder.

A 4 into 1 reflects pulses back to all the other carbs, fouling their exit flow for all RPMs other than at a narrow band (near or at red line).  If they are properly tuned, the pulses reflect back at the designed RPM to reverse pack some fuel air charge into the cylinder's exhaust port, allowing a power boost with the proper carb jetting to compensate for the altered mixture.  At any RPM other than what the 4 into 1 is tuned for, the exhaust scavenge effect is ruined completely, making the cylinders fire even more inefficiently, and somewhat unpredictably.

At idle, back pressure helps hold some of the unburned hydrocarbons in the chamber. This allows leaner carb delivery.  Take away the Back pressure and the jetting that worked well before now needs enrichment.  This is why race pipes work like crap on the street where low and mid range operation is dominant.  The only exceptions I know of are the stock F model pipe and mufflers.  These are quiet high pressure pipes that work really well on the street, but are almost certainly down on comparative power at or above red line.  (wish I had a dyno)

Race pipes can work well on the track where the operational RPM band is limited, and the engine is expected to be refurbished frequently due to the routine flogging.
Pods and loud pipes may be a convenient style statement for artists and rebelious interests.  But, the physics and scientific principles are constants and spit in the eye of art projecteers that still need their art subject to function as well as before the stylistic massaging of functionally integrated components.

Ideally, you'd learn how and why the currently working system functions before making alterations which change things you never previously monitored.  Only then can you make changes that might follow a predictive outcome.  Of course that's a lot more boring for many than just changing things whimsically to see what happens.  But, be prepared for "ripple effect" where one change leads to another and then another to compensate for the previous change.

But then, aren't artists expected to suffer for their art?  (as well as remain impoverished.)   ;D

Maybe that's why I generally ignore aesthetics in favor of functionality.  :-\

Think I'll go for a ride.... ;D
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2014, 04:57:12 AM »

At idle, back pressure helps hold some of the unburned hydrocarbons in the chamber. This allows leaner carb delivery.  Take away the Back pressure and the jetting that worked well before now needs enrichment.  This is why race pipes work like crap on the street where low and mid range operation is dominant.  The only exceptions I know of are the stock F model pipe and mufflers.  These are quiet high pressure pipes that work really well on the street, but are almost certainly down on comparative power at or above red line.  (wish I had a dyno)

Any idea which 4-1 headers I have then? Curious if these ever came stock on the 550 or if the PO bought them somewhere else. What I gathered by this paragraph is that a Honda stock 4-1 will be better for the street than a different "race" 4-1. And possibly...dare I say easier to tune? Or at lease give better results. Although maybe not because I'm changing the muffler from stock...

Any other advice for a starting point as far as jets go or the above posts are as good a place to start as any? I know you wouldn't do this at all, but if you could imagine you were a suffering art projecteer you'd do what? After a little wax poetic, that is.

Thanks! :)





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1978 Honda CB550K

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2014, 06:27:44 AM »

Looks like a Mac or Kerker. For carbs with pods and 4:1, try 105's. Get several sets of plugs, make certain the battery and points, and timing are perfect before you begin.

Vacuum synch the carbs after each jetting change to insure optimal testing. And be ready for plug chop after plug chop after plug chop after... Don't waste time withing to save and re-use sooty plugs. Replace and get the very best reading you can.

But be certain bike is otherwise running perfectly to minimize chasing your tail.

Would you say 105's even if I'm not using pods? If you see the first post I have a picture of what I'm using...a K&N filter adapted to the plenum which feeds the carbs.

And do I not need to change the slow jets (aka idle jets?)? All I would possibly have to change would be the main jets, needle positions and idle mixture screws?

Similar to this intake setup.




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1978 Honda CB550K

Offline Lostboy Steve

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Re: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2014, 06:38:52 AM »

Basically, cosmetically... do whatever you want.  If the bike is running fine, let it be that way till you finish everything else, then mess with the carbs if you would like.  When you do get to the point of making changes mechanically, change one thing at a time, then run the bike for alittle while, then change something else after a while and see how it responds etc... 

Its easy enough to put on a different gas tank and put a cafe seat on the bike...  If you are looking to change the looks id start there and learn about what all that entails.  Maybe have a go at painting her yourself, thats a whole rabbits hole in itself you can go down...  Fitting a fiberglass tank... that in itself poses some questions on just how are you mounting the dang thing etc....  Where are you going to hide the electrics on the bike, where are you going to get the wire for the electrics(do you want the wire coloring to match? can you solder etc), are you going to rewire anything or just extend the wiring to be able to have enough length to tuck it under your cafe seat...  where are you going to mount the battery?  Those nice shiny pictures on the internet are photoshopped, ever see a battery in those really cool ones?  You have to have a battery to run our bikes, just cause its kickstart doesnt mean a thing.  Where abouts are you going to put that battery if you are trying to go for the look you are going for?  Turn signals?  Tail light?  These are things you should be looking into first before ever messing with those carbs...  Just loosing weight on the bike is going to make the bike go faster....  Alluminum rims will reduce weight as well making your bike "faster"  I would look into those things first then get into looking into jetting your carbs and further tuning...  When you do get to that point, expect to not get it right over and over and over again and realize that you are learning every time you fail.

I totally know what you mean. And I'm pretty much there already. I built a custom leather seat, stripped my tank, altered the frame, fitted all LED's minus the headlight, cleaned all electrical connections. I'm going to change the battery over to a smaller lithium ion Shorai in the near future and mount it somewhere. I don't mind having it exposed.

The REAL reason other than aesthetics for doing exhaust and intake is that after that I can remove the side covers, which will make the bike significantly thinner. I'm only 5'5" so that'll make it easier to "taxi" the bike around my dirt driveway and parking lots. That was also the reason I made my custom thinner seat, so I would be closer to the ground.



I appreciate the knowledge drop. I don't think I'm reckless. I'm a Swede and we tend to do things more methodical, haha.

Thanks


---
1978 Honda CB550K

That seat looks really nice!
1968 Honda Z50
1977 Honda CB550K
2018 Indian Scout

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2014, 07:53:48 AM »




That seat looks really nice!

Thanks! I think so too, ha. I've done some other leather work but building a seat was foreign and fun.


---
1978 Honda CB550K

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2014, 08:02:37 AM »


Ok, so I JUST noticed that the carb bowls are different. 1 and 2 don't match 3 and 4. There is a little spout where the hoses connect which isn't on the others Not sure how I missed this. I checked and all carbs are the same PD46C. Is this normal? The PO didn't mention changing anything but now I'm not sure. Could just be different float bowls.

I'm thinking of opening them up and cleaning and putting back to stock if they're not already before doing any rejetting. Bad idea considering it seems* to run fine as is?

*Maybe I'm nit picking but I might feel a slight hesitation right off the line.
 
Where are some good resources for my bike for rebuild kits and jets? I can't seem to find any yet for my specific year. Only up to '77.


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1978 Honda CB550K

Offline Bankerdanny

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Re: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2014, 09:31:38 AM »
Someone put the wrong bowl on carb 2. the 1 and 2 carbs (from left to right sitting on the bike) should have drain screws facing left. The 3 and 4 carbs should have drain screws facing right. Having a 3-4 bowl on your #2 carb won't impact performance, but it will make it more difficult to drain the bowl.
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Current: '76 CB750F. Previous:  '75 CB550F, 2007 Yamaha Vino 125 Scooter, '75 Harley FXE Superglide, '77 GL1000, '77 CB550k, '68 Suzuki K10 80, '68 Yamaha YR2, '69 BMW R69S, '71 Honda SL175, '02 Royal Enfield Bullet 500, '89 Yamaha FJ1200

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2014, 10:01:29 AM »

Someone put the wrong bowl on carb 2. the 1 and 2 carbs (from left to right sitting on the bike) should have drain screws facing left. The 3 and 4 carbs should have drain screws facing right. Having a 3-4 bowl on your #2 carb won't impact performance, but it will make it more difficult to drain the bowl.

Ah, that explains it. Thanks. When I do the rebuild I'll put them back in the right place.


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1978 Honda CB550K

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2014, 12:11:03 PM »
Any idea which 4-1 headers I have then?  Curious if these ever came stock on the 550 or if the PO bought them somewhere else.
Definitely not stock.  I'd guess yours are MACs, as they are the cheapest aftermarket system available.

What I gathered by this paragraph is that a Honda stock 4-1 will be better for the street than a different "race" 4-1. And possibly...dare I say easier to tune? Or at lease give better results. Although maybe not because I'm changing the muffler from stock...
Let me introduce you to the concept of "systems".
The header and pipe make up an exhaust "system".  Technically, the exhaust valve, its timing, and port characteristics are included in that system.

If you change a part in the system, the behavior of the system changes overall, and the tuning changes vary in unpredictable ways unless you know what the characteristics of the components within the system were before and after the change.  In the stock muffler case, there are pressure characteristics, as well as baffle impulse reflection distances from the exhaust valve to consider.  An aftermarket muffler is unlikely to replicate those parameters on their build-to-a-price-point offering. 

The stock systems are easier to tune because Honda did all the characterization for you, and made a "recipe" to fit the parts of the system.
Change a part's characteristics and you change the recipe.  Restore to fit the recipe, and it works as originally predicted without much bother.

I feel comfortable in saying the MAC exhaust components, are built for easy, quick, and cheapest assembly parameters.  Pipe diameters, baffle reflection points as well as overall pipe pressure level are whatever happened to be assembled on the day of production.  Their part control measures are likely limited to a fixture, that holds the pieces in a position where they can fit on the bikes they intend to have them fit, and the overall end product looks like what they show in the catalog (very artsy!).

Any other advice for a starting point as far as jets go or the above posts are as good a place to start as any?
You mean without knowing which exhaust you will eventually choose or it's characteristics?

OK then, a W.A.G.  Main jet; 100-102, Slide needle; 2nd clip position from bottom, #42 pilot jets,  IMS at 3 -4 turns out.

I know you wouldn't do this at all, but if you could imagine you were a suffering art projecteer you'd do what? After a little wax poetic, that is.
Actually I might do this.   ...After an apocalyptic event that made proper parts unobtainium.  ;D

I was thinking about your statement that you wanted a finished bike that was unique and could call your own as original.  ...And the thread begins with asking tuning advise from someone whose has the same set up.
This forum is a hoot sometimes...   ;D

*Maybe I'm nit picking but I might feel a slight hesitation right off the line.

IS this occurring with what induction and what exhaust?

Anyway, the symptom description is that of classic too lean an idle mixture (caused by a pods change and/or loss of exhaust back pressure), possibly cured with more outward turns on the pilot screws.   However, the slide needle and main jet "leak" a bit at idle and larger orifices do have an effect on idle mixture.  Another adjustment to have an effect over all throttle positions, is the carb float bowl fuel level. 12.5mm brings the level upward and makes fuel enter the throat chambers more easily.

The rejet carb process is best begun with determining the correct main jet size.  This sets the maximum flow required for the engine from the carbs.
The two extremes are min. and max.  The pilot system sets the minimum, and the Main sets the maximum.  The slide needle addresses the throttle positions in between.

Mechanical slide carbs (without accelerator pumps) must be over rich at idle, as they naturally lean when the slide is first raised.  The slide raising not only makes more air available, it also allows outside air pressure to reach into the carb throats.  Since it is the differential pressure between what exists in the carb throat and outside air pressure that drives the fuel into the carb throat, reducing the differential pressure reduces fuel volume at the same time raising the slide makes more air available to the intake.  The result: stumble.  The cure: make the pilot mixture over-rich and limit the amount of throttle twist from the operator. 
The 77-78 PD carbs were very stingy on the pilot mixture to meet EPA exhaust sniff requirements.  The high pressure exhaust was used by Honda as a way of reburning hydrocarbons left over from the previous burn cycle.  Reburning allowed this otherwise stingy mixture to idle and accelerate smoothly.  Change the 77-78 high pressure exhaust to a low pressure system and the stock carb instantly provide less than needed fuel from the pilots, effectively leaning the idle mix and inducing throttle twist stumble.  PD carbs with the 42 pilots should have enough adjustment to restore over rich idle (much to the chagrin of the EPA and the majority of breathing mammals).  I'm not so confident about the PDs with #38 pilots, but it is worth a try to simply tweak the IMS.
Note that you may have to also stretch the pilot screw springs to keep the pilot screws from vibrating out of the carb body.

It is assumed that the bike's ignition system and valve adjustment are in proper working order.  And that the carbs are vacuum balanced for the engine.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2014, 02:30:27 PM »

Re:105's - misunderstood that you weren't running pods... My bad. What are your current carb settings? If you don't know, then if you do take them down, take notice of everything and start a log. Then as you go, you know how to adjust them.

Harisuluv has parts and is a great source of carb advice.

I don't know my current carb settings. And I already have a book that I'll be documenting everything I do. I was assuming that the carbs are stock but since the float bowls were messed with then they might have been altered. Plus, when I got the bike the PO had my 4-1 headers with an open "muffler" with no air filter. It idled very high, like 3500, but when I test rode it it didn't sputter or lag. When I got home with the bike I put the Uni foam filter in it and put the original exhaust back on that he gave me. Then it ran very nicely. So he MAY have altered the jetting to compensate for the lack of air filter plus free flowing exhaust, but I won't know until I open them up.


---
1978 Honda CB550K

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Carb Tuning Advice CB550k
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2014, 02:56:28 PM »

Any idea which 4-1 headers I have then?  Curious if these ever came stock on the 550 or if the PO bought them somewhere else.
Definitely not stock.  I'd guess yours are MACs, as they are the cheapest aftermarket system available.

What I gathered by this paragraph is that a Honda stock 4-1 will be better for the street than a different "race" 4-1. And possibly...dare I say easier to tune? Or at lease give better results. Although maybe not because I'm changing the muffler from stock...
Let me introduce you to the concept of "systems".
The header and pipe make up an exhaust "system".  Technically, the exhaust valve, its timing, and port characteristics are included in that system.

If you change a part in the system, the behavior of the system changes overall, and the tuning changes vary in unpredictable ways unless you know what the characteristics of the components within the system were before and after the change.  In the stock muffler case, there are pressure characteristics, as well as baffle impulse reflection distances from the exhaust valve to consider.  An aftermarket muffler is unlikely to replicate those parameters on their build-to-a-price-point offering. 

The stock systems are easier to tune because Honda did all the characterization for you, and made a "recipe" to fit the parts of the system.
Change a part's characteristics and you change the recipe.  Restore to fit the recipe, and it works as originally predicted without much bother.

I feel comfortable in saying the MAC exhaust components, are built for easy, quick, and cheapest assembly parameters.  Pipe diameters, baffle reflection points as well as overall pipe pressure level are whatever happened to be assembled on the day of production.  Their part control measures are likely limited to a fixture, that holds the pieces in a position where they can fit on the bikes they intend to have them fit, and the overall end product looks like what they show in the catalog (very artsy!).

Any other advice for a starting point as far as jets go or the above posts are as good a place to start as any?
You mean without knowing which exhaust you will eventually choose or it's characteristics?

OK then, a W.A.G.  Main jet; 100-102, Slide needle; 2nd clip position from bottom, #42 pilot jets,  IMS at 3 -4 turns out.

I know you wouldn't do this at all, but if you could imagine you were a suffering art projecteer you'd do what? After a little wax poetic, that is.
Actually I might do this.   ...After an apocalyptic event that made proper parts unobtainium.  ;D

I was thinking about your statement that you wanted a finished bike that was unique and could call your own as original.  ...And the thread begins with asking tuning advise from someone whose has the same set up.
This forum is a hoot sometimes...   ;D

*Maybe I'm nit picking but I might feel a slight hesitation right off the line.

IS this occurring with what induction and what exhaust?

Anyway, the symptom description is that of classic too lean an idle mixture (caused by a pods change and/or loss of exhaust back pressure), possibly cured with more outward turns on the pilot screws.   However, the slide needle and main jet "leak" a bit at idle and larger orifices do have an effect on idle mixture.  Another adjustment to have an effect over all throttle positions, is the carb float bowl fuel level. 12.5mm brings the level upward and makes fuel enter the throat chambers more easily.

The rejet carb process is best begun with determining the correct main jet size.  This sets the maximum flow required for the engine from the carbs.
The two extremes are min. and max.  The pilot system sets the minimum, and the Main sets the maximum.  The slide needle addresses the throttle positions in between.

Mechanical slide carbs (without accelerator pumps) must be over rich at idle, as they naturally lean when the slide is first raised.  The slide raising not only makes more air available, it also allows outside air pressure to reach into the carb throats.  Since it is the differential pressure between what exists in the carb throat and outside air pressure that drives the fuel into the carb throat, reducing the differential pressure reduces fuel volume at the same time raising the slide makes more air available to the intake.  The result: stumble.  The cure: make the pilot mixture over-rich and limit the amount of throttle twist from the operator. 
The 77-78 PD carbs were very stingy on the pilot mixture to meet EPA exhaust sniff requirements.  The high pressure exhaust was used by Honda as a way of reburning hydrocarbons left over from the previous burn cycle.  Reburning allowed this otherwise stingy mixture to idle and accelerate smoothly.  Change the 77-78 high pressure exhaust to a low pressure system and the stock carb instantly provide less than needed fuel from the pilots, effectively leaning the idle mix and inducing throttle twist stumble.  PD carbs with the 42 pilots should have enough adjustment to restore over rich idle (much to the chagrin of the EPA and the majority of breathing mammals).  I'm not so confident about the PDs with #38 pilots, but it is worth a try to simply tweak the IMS.
Note that you may have to also stretch the pilot screw springs to keep the pilot screws from vibrating out of the carb body.

It is assumed that the bike's ignition system and valve adjustment are in proper working order.  And that the carbs are vacuum balanced for the engine.

I don't really know how to do the multiple quote thing you did...let's try this:

You mean without knowing which exhaust you will eventually choose or it's characteristics?

In my first post I list the intake and exhaust changes I want to do.
I chose the Dime City Cycles 18" Reverse Cone Quiet Core muffler on the unknown, but probably MAC headers. K&N cone filter on plastic "plenum".
I know you can't know my exact setup's characteristics but hope that helps. Maybe more than a WAG?

Maybe I'm nit picking but I might feel a slight hesitation right off the line.
IS this occurring with what induction and what exhaust?

Airbox with Uni filter and stock chrome 4-4.

It is assumed that the bike's ignition system and valve adjustment are in proper working order.  And that the carbs are vacuum balanced for the engine.

That is all done except the carb balance. (I just recently built a manometer) I was debating just balancing them now or opening them up and cleaning them and checking if they're stock inside then balancing.
Let's say they're not stock but the bike runs fairly well. Would you recommend just using this as a starting point or changing the carbs to stock and use that as a starting point?


---
1978 Honda CB550K