Topic: gun massacre

[calj737]

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you, Australia  And for a parting gift, tea. (And beer).

[nightpoison]

Our constitution gave us the structure or frame work for our government.  The Bill of rights set limits on government, as our founders knew that government was an enemy of the people, but some government was necassary. The Bill of Rights set the limits, or attempted to in order to create a small functioning government while setting guidelines that guaranteed the people's individual rights the government had no control over.

A lot a people forget it was our founding fathers who may have wrote these documents, but it was approved by the states. I believe 10 out of 14 was the final count that approved the Bill of Rights.

Each of the amendments have purpose, created because all governments will turn on the people they were created to protect, in some or all ways. Our founders knew that.

Throughout history, it can be argued that some of the biggest atrocities came at the hands of big government, that carried to much power over its people. And I use government as a loose term, as any organization of power of a populace can fit the role.

All of the Amendments were written to protect its people, written by a few approved by all.

Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk

[demon78]

So it begins to look like you've got too many people, for small government to be effective and that the founding father's couldn't conceive of all the evil that lurks in the heart of man or that you would get so big, so they put together something that would work for the time, which is reasonable because they needed something that might work then just not for all time, so then the key for mass killings might be a review and revamp of your constitution and amendments so that gun ownership and use could be given the importance that is needed for a civil society to function.
Bill the demon.

[calj737]

Bill - not sure that is the answer. How on earth could you legislate morality and behaviour? I offer the following:

With the rise of global terror by a small faction of the human population, we are advised to NOT judge ALL Muslims by the actions of a few lunatics,
but we are encouraged to judge ALL gun owners by the actions of a few lunatics.
Funny how that works.

As has been stated many times, removing guns doesn't solve the problem. At least not here in the US. These lunatics will simply move to another device or weapon to continue their assaults. We need to remove or re-orient these lunatics. That is a permanent solution.

As for "updating" our Constitution, it's lived for 200+ years and is doing quite well when adhered. The only current climate correction "I think" it needs, is a tighter observance of it. You'd be surprised how well things can work when you keep them simple, well thought out, and well executed. KISS, right?

Attempting to provide as legislation, a provision for every nuance you mean inflating our Constitution to above and beyond our Tax Code. We'd all be screwed then...

Bear in mind, our Constitution is structured to do 2 things in its essence: declare and provide "inalienable rights" to all US citizens and visitors, AND limit the scope of the Federal government, by creating individual state's authority. This then allows each state to self-govern, without superseding Federal law, and to prevent the Federal government from usurping State's rights. It's a pretty neat system, not perfect, but well executed.

There are numerous examples of Federal laws needing to be passed to correct historical State laws that prevented the Constitutional protections. But there are also nearly as many times that State judiciary es have isolated themselves from conflicting Federal laws that infringe on States protected self-governing rights. That's why we have Federal District Courts, and even a Supreme Court. It's a system of checks and balances that "normally" works pretty dang well.

I'm sure as a border neighbor, the perceptions of our misbehaving society is quite alarming, and I too would be very interested in "keeping it across the street". Fortunately, international borders are far better regulated than our state lines. So, I think, unless stupidity and mental illness are contagious, you're quite safe.

Was a beautiful weekend here for riding. Hope many others enjoyed some great two-wheeled time!

Enjoy your week everyone-

[kmb69]

+1 Well said.

[calj737]

Written, not said. 

Being a smart-a$$ is not restricted to my tongue as my fingers are surgically connected to my mouth.

But I do appreciate the acknowledgement, kmb.

I'm just trying to be as civil, and open-minded as possible. And reading the commentary and observations from so many international members, has given me a different perspective. While I believe strongly what I've written in all these posts, I do believe it's also well past time to re-consider our stance on what is contributing to this plague. And I do call it a plague as it seems to be locally (US-centric) concentrated. It's true, other countries have similar outbursts of this violence, but nowhere near as frequently.

Is it the size of irony population, the diversity of it, the numerous regional cultures, our political history? What is it that's causing this to the degree here, but not so rampant in other very similar countries. Sure, a common denominator is the number of guns here, but I'm not sure that simple statistic is "the" answer. It can't be, because historically, we had more guns prevalent in our society, being handled by kids, and no where the calamity that now occurs.

The times have changed, but people's behavior has de-volved. That's the interesting dynamic to me. Is our national mentality as Retro points out? Not convinced is that's simple. I believe it must be part of it, but there's something deeper, more evil at work. Has to be. I sure hope we discover how to change our behaviour soon so that no more atrocities like this spring up.

[ekpent]

One thing I see as a common denominator in a lot of these young lunatics is their internet ramblings, manifesto's etc. It gives them what in their mind is a very large soapbox to stand on to vent their rage and the publicity to think that they will live on in infamy. If the Police would have checked the last young mans facebook and heeded the parents warning they would have seen many red flags.  These parents just need to be more involved also instead of just giving their kid a blank credit card and a nice BMW car.

[70CB750]

I said it earlier, mass shootings are mostly done by liberals, or at least by people who vote democrats.  They take a fetus as a "thing" they have the right to dispose of as they please and human being is for them another "thing". 

WOW. Come on people this was a quite constructive thread, blatantly stupid posts like this one above do absolutely nothing for anyones point of view. Sorry Prokop, but mate....that wasn't very good. You made the point clear that you came from a far worse experience in your home country to the United States, you obviously went forward from your situation, I find myself in a  safer country here so in my experience it would be like going backwards for me {conflicting points of view already}, just because your situation has improved doesn't mean its better than mine or anyone else's here, also singling out a whole base of people, Liberals as the problem is only shoving your political beliefs down everyones throat and not needed, i would say that that was a typical right wing comment based on nothing as was your "fetus" comment, how about "people" for a label, thats the problem with society these days, its been divided up into competing factions by our wonderfully inept politicians, thats what they want, we are all just people, working to a common cause would be far more productive than pursuing selfish ideals.... Lets keep this constructive and on track for once...

Good work Cal for trying to keep this rational and on track.......

I did not blame it on liberals, I stated that it is more common for mass shooters to be liberals than right wingers.  Even though the mass media in USA is more often than not trying to pin any shooting on NRA, republicans - you name it.  How is that for labeling?

I believe that if you value life, you are not selective about it - and abortion is killing just the same as any other killing.

[demon78]

As far legislating morality goes I'm not suggesting that, what I'm saying is that responsible use, is rewarded and I don't judge Muslims by a few crazies I judge them by the same criteria that I judge all religions, the border neighbor thing it doesn't alarm me I just think it's #$%*ing stupid and I don't want the stupidity to be perpetuated here by some that hold what happens in America is important and good. As for the various amendments and twists and turns of state versus federal gov I guess what I think about that, is illustrated by what happens when a new fighter is introduced to a squadron, it's wonderful, flies beautifully, fast, maneuverable except for a couple of minor glitches so there are mod's made then after a bit we need it to do this, not so good, so a few more mods then after a bit more, other mods and finally the thing that soared like an eagle is now a kludge, flies like a cement outhouse. So more mods or a redesign? Look what's happened to the Catholic church and now there's a new Pope trying to bring it in line with modern morality so nothing is cast in stone. This is not to offend but clarify.
Bill the demon.

[calj737]

Bill - an interesting analogy about the Pope. Some would argue, that he is actually trying to "restore" the tenets of Catholicism: tolerance, sacrifice, selflessness, compassion and a life devoid of material pursuits. I think it's more evidence that, the more we tinker with, the more we dilute the value of. In it's most raw form, most frameworks perform better. Our Constitution is one example, your cited example of Catholicism is certainly another. Designed by conscience, perverted by man. Too much tinkering by the corrupted and greedy.

I've always counseled my children to not let Religion get in the way of your faith. Meaning: keep it pure, keep it honest, remain humble. Works better if your heart/conscience is your guide, not a dogmatic decree of what you should do. I'm not down on religion, but I also don't want to diverge into a religion thread (mostly out of massive respect to all others).

I agree, we have become a world (or at least the US. a nation) of whining, greedy little sycophants. As Retro put it, labels and finger pointing get us nowhere.

[demon78]

 Not dilute, encumber, if you hang too many things on it sinks from it's own weight. Popster comes from a different sensibility yes he's trying to renew but he's also thought about it and has made the judgment there needs to be modernization, I mean after all there's not as many angels that can dance on the head of a pin anymore because reality says they've gotten fatter.
Bill the demon.

[BobbyR]

These types of shootings are not new, where they are taking place is new. The Post Office was popular for a wile and the phrase " Going Postal" was popular in the 1980's. Then it moved to other places of work. The common denominator a very sick mind following the example of another sick mind.

Columbine allowed the sick mind to comtemplate the previously unthinkable, which is killing children in School. Sadly, these people have killed themselves and escaped imprisionment or execution, which they may find friegntening. There is no simple fix unless we turn our Schools into firebases.  This may run it's course, hopefully quickly.

Before the US Constitutuion was ratified single States had their own and actually still do. The States retained rights to make their own local Laws governing certain areas. There is a pushback by States on many issues they feel is Federal encrouchment. They take the Feds to court all the time over this.

Colorado has passed a Law which is totally illegal on a Federal level. The Feds have decided to ignore that....for now. I see this going to Court in the future.

The United States is confusing with our differing Laws from State to State.  Each State Government feels it is serving the will of it's Citizens as it should. New Mexico has no real interest in the problems in NYC.

The EU is sort of a United States model, and they are having problems between it's member Countries. This discussion is very enlightening and debate, it will be circular since there is no easy or quick fix.     

[grcamna2]

Bill - an interesting analogy about the Pope. Some would argue, that he is actually trying to "restore" the tenets of Catholicism: tolerance, sacrifice, selflessness, compassion and a life devoid of material pursuits. I think it's more evidence that, the more we tinker with, the more we dilute the value of. In it's most raw form, most frameworks perform better. Our Constitution is one example, your cited example of Catholicism is certainly another. Designed by conscience, perverted by man. Too much tinkering by the corrupted and greedy.

I've always counseled my children to not let Religion get in the way of your faith. Meaning: keep it pure, keep it honest, remain humble. Works better if your heart/conscience is your guide, not a dogmatic decree of what you should do. I'm not down on religion, but I also don't want to diverge into a religion thread (mostly out of massive respect to all others).

I agree, we have become a world (or at least the US. a nation) of whining, greedy little sycophants. As Retro put it, labels and finger pointing get us nowhere.

calj,
I think it's good what you're saying here;I personally see what you just wrote(imo)for myself..., 'put your heart in the right place(or at least 'want to'  )and stay on track'  I appreciate how this can challenge me to 'look on the good side'  I'd rather improve my own life as I age, it's better than complaining how 'the world is going to hell in a handbasket' type of attitude.
                                      Thanks for the encouragement Man 

[calj737]

It's kind of a "the older I get, the smaller the world becomes" mentality for me. I refuse to allow the changing socially accepted norms become tolerated and still insist upon treating people without preconceived notions. At least, I'm trying like hell to raise my kids this way.

I have instilled in them the old adage, "Best to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and confirm it".

Yes, at the end of the day, despite all that's wrong in the world, there's some truly miraculous stuff still happening. Keeping an eye on that has helped me keep some perspective. Things change. Not necessarily for the better, and progress isn't assured. Just gotta keep pushing the stone up the mountain with my nose until I get to the other side.

Be well-

[Retro Rocket]

I said it earlier, mass shootings are mostly done by liberals, or at least by people who vote democrats.  They take a fetus as a "thing" they have the right to dispose of as they please and human being is for them another "thing". 

WOW. Come on people this was a quite constructive thread, blatantly stupid posts like this one above do absolutely nothing for anyones point of view. Sorry Prokop, but mate....that wasn't very good. You made the point clear that you came from a far worse experience in your home country to the United States, you obviously went forward from your situation, I find myself in a  safer country here so in my experience it would be like going backwards for me {conflicting points of view already}, just because your situation has improved doesn't mean its better than mine or anyone else's here, also singling out a whole base of people, Liberals as the problem is only shoving your political beliefs down everyones throat and not needed, i would say that that was a typical right wing comment based on nothing as was your "fetus" comment, how about "people" for a label, thats the problem with society these days, its been divided up into competing factions by our wonderfully inept politicians, thats what they want, we are all just people, working to a common cause would be far more productive than pursuing selfish ideals.... Lets keep this constructive and on track for once...

Good work Cal for trying to keep this rational and on track.......

I did not blame it on liberals, I stated that it is more common for mass shooters to be liberals than right wingers.  Even though the mass media in USA is more often than not trying to pin any shooting on NRA, republicans - you name it.  How is that for labeling?

I believe that if you value life, you are not selective about it - and abortion is killing just the same as any other killing.

You want to know what i think, Politics has sweet fcuk all to do with it, people kill people. How about , rich republicans don't kill anyone, they pay others to do it..? I think its pretty unreasonable to bring abortion into this, for a start, what makes you think you can yell from the tree tops pro choice {i want my guns and less restrictive laws} then wanting to take choice away from someone that has just as much right to make their own choice, what a mess we would be in if every fetus produced was born, look at Africa and welcome to your future, do you think raped women should no abort...?, too much hypocrisy in this world, its not about choice, its all about selfishness, as in "i'll do whatever i fcuking want"... Virtually no one cares about anyone else but everyone has an opinion...

[BobbyR]

Maybe here is part of the problem:

An estimated 12 percent of all children in the United States suffer some sort of confirmed neglect, physical, sexual, or emotional abuse by the time they reach age 18, says new research from Yale University.

Even more troubling, one out of every five black children and one in seven Native American youth face maltreatment during the same period of time in thier lives, according to a paper published in the June 2 issue of the journal JAMA Pediatrics.

A university research group arrived at the cumulative estimate of mistreated American children by examining the National Child Abuse and Neglect Data System Child File, which includes data on every child in the country with a confirmed report of maltreatment.

Case reports accumulated between 2004 and 2011 showed over 5.6 million children had experienced maltreatment during that specific seven-year span.

"Confirmed child maltreatment is dramatically underestimated in this country. Our findings show that it is far more prevalent than the 1 in 100 that is currently reported," Christopher Wildeman, an associate professor of sociology at Yale, a faculty fellow at the Institution for Social and Policy Studies and the study's lead author, said in a news release.

[calj737]

Perhaps decent, but anecdotal support for my premise of licensing parents??? I know, a little too China-esque for the US. But something's gotta give-

[BobbyR]

Yale and Jama don;t do anecdotal. Abused kids are angry kids. Angry kids become bullies, or withdraw.  Kids with a pent up anger act out. This may not be the total answer, but it is a good start.

[calj737]

I wasn't suggesting the research is anecdotal, only that the causal relationship to later in life violence could be connected "anecdotally" as this research doesn't draw that conclusion. I was connecting the dots, gently.

[nccb]

Perhaps decent, but anecdotal support for my premise of licensing parents??? I know, a little too China-esque for the US. But something's gotta give-

You could restart the eugenics programs like we had until 1970 (if you can believe that #$%*), but you know no good can come out of that.

[demon78]

Bobby I don't think it's that much different here and I know anecdotally the Indian kids are abused here my wife worked for a native literacy organization and the stories that used to come out were horrendous to the point where if it was me there would at least public outing if not blood on the streets, as far as negro kids went the only ones I knew were in the RCAF so I couldn't say. Parent licensing for sure. Any how guys age and digging up weeds have gotten to me  I'm off to Morpheus's grip. ( insert whine about aches, pains and age) [or good night sweet prince may flights of angels sing thee to thy rest] I think the first is more appropriate.
Bill the demon.

[demon78]

No one want to play damm I'll have to go out and do some more weeding.
Bill the demon.

[calj737]

We could derail this thread and introduce a less hotly contested topic like, I dunno, Steampunking a survivor CB. Just spitballing ideas...   

[Spanner 1]

Long discussion about gun laws, religion and politics contributing to the gun massacre problem misses the actual cause IMO and that is simply a complete lack of mental health care in this country..... all the shooters in these atrocities were profoundly mentally ill and sending cops to 'evaluate' a young man's state of mental health is totally wrong and would never happen in any other society. While the latest young man to go ballistic had warnings about him issued by his parents, his father should have gone to his apartment and taken his weapons away, don't care what age he is, over 21 or not. So, parents failed and passing the liability over to 'law enforcement' was the second mistake. All very sad and easily stoppable with ACTION by those close to him.

[Duke McDukiedook]

I said it earlier, mass shootings are mostly done by liberals, or at least by people who vote democrats.  They take a fetus as a "thing" they have the right to dispose of as they please and human being is for them another "thing". 

WOW. Come on people this was a quite constructive thread, blatantly stupid posts like this one above do absolutely nothing for anyones point of view. Sorry Prokop, but mate....that wasn't very good. You made the point clear that you came from a far worse experience in your home country to the United States, you obviously went forward from your situation, I find myself in a  safer country here so in my experience it would be like going backwards for me {conflicting points of view already}, just because your situation has improved doesn't mean its better than mine or anyone else's here, also singling out a whole base of people, Liberals as the problem is only shoving your political beliefs down everyones throat and not needed, i would say that that was a typical right wing comment based on nothing as was your "fetus" comment, how about "people" for a label, thats the problem with society these days, its been divided up into competing factions by our wonderfully inept politicians, thats what they want, we are all just people, working to a common cause would be far more productive than pursuing selfish ideals.... Lets keep this constructive and on track for once...

Good work Cal for trying to keep this rational and on track.......

I did not blame it on liberals, I stated that it is more common for mass shooters to be liberals than right wingers.  Even though the mass media in USA is more often than not trying to pin any shooting on NRA, republicans - you name it.  How is that for labeling?

I believe that if you value life, you are not selective about it - and abortion is killing just the same as any other killing.

You want to know what i think, Politics has sweet fcuk all to do with it, people kill people. How about , rich republicans don't kill anyone, they pay others to do it..? I think its pretty unreasonable to bring abortion into this, for a start, what makes you think you can yell from the tree tops pro choice {i want my guns and less restrictive laws} then wanting to take choice away from someone that has just as much right to make their own choice, what a mess we would be in if every fetus produced was born, look at Africa and welcome to your future, do you think raped women should no abort...?, too much hypocrisy in this world, its not about choice, its all about selfishness, as in "i'll do whatever i fcuking want"... Virtually no one cares about anyone else but everyone has an opinion...

Of course they want a say in what happens in a female's uterus with no say from her.

I'll put it as simple as possible about the abortion thing- IF IT WAS A MALE PHYSICALLY CARRYING THE BABY ABORTION WOULD BE LEGAL, NO QUESTIONS ASKED.

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