Author Topic: gun massacre  (Read 27239 times)

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Offline JeffSTL

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #300 on: June 06, 2014, 06:56:43 pm »
Well, JeffSTL, it just proves you don't know a sihte.

Did you ever study economy?  Do you know anything about late Soviet Union? Did you ever study anything above high school level?

From here it looks like you did not.

Right, from the genius that has contributed absolutely nothing to the conversation.  What exactly do you question? Maybe I could help clarify it for you. You have been a trove of useful info on this thread, I'm sure you would understand.(sarcasm totally intended)

Btw, I did happen to put myself through school and have a degree in mechanical drawing/CAD, thank you. Maybe you just can't see very well looking from over there.

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #301 on: June 06, 2014, 07:24:14 pm »
Let's put an end to personal attacks, shall we?
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #302 on: June 06, 2014, 07:53:48 pm »
I'm glad to see after almost 300 posts that folks are getting away from the '#$%* the evil bastards' for doing that to a realization that here in the USA access to mental healthcare and general recognition of obvious mental issues are overlooked and positioned as 'well he's different, isn't he ' even if he's ranting about mass killing on social media. Again sending cops to evaluate someone's mental state was an incredible surprise to me and unheard of anywhere but here !... just 'wow'... :-\
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Offline demon78

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #303 on: June 06, 2014, 08:00:47 pm »
Jeff I have friends 45-50 years that call me worse and I suppose the only thing that gets to me is ignorance, you know the type of thing where some one tries to pigeon hole me into their version of reality and now that I approach 75 after a reasonable eventful life the things that could be said about me is I'm a #$%* disturber and free thinker, my late wife would confirm that, my friends would agree, as far as being anything pro/anti gun I'm neither, the gun people say that guns don't kill the anti gun people say guns kill, what do the victims say is my question, also does taking away your gun trump taking away my life as far as bad goes, we are still not trying for a solution because we are side tracking ourselves about other things. Gun people haven't come up with a good argument about the rights of shot people. What I'm saying why is their right to gun more important than my right to life ? I'm most likely rambling and being a fuzzy thinker and I know that my plumbing is giving me the gears so it's #$%*sville again, #$%*ing pills any how enough for to night. The other thing for the newcomers the "demon" in my name has dick all to do with the dark side and has more to do with the Squadron I was in, 407 sqdn RCAF who's moto was to hold on high with a picture of a demon with a trident spearing a sub and it's easy to remember for me.
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Ps Bob I'm not being personal, see I'm even being relatively polite
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 08:09:30 pm by demon74 »

Offline JeffSTL

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #304 on: June 06, 2014, 09:23:13 pm »
I'm most likely rambling and being a fuzzy thinker and I know that my plumbing is giving me the gears so it's #$%*sville again, #$%*ing pills any how enough for to night.

Bill, there certainly didn't seem to be anything fuzzy about your post.

I think the quote above was totally worth waiting through 13 pages of nonsense.
To share, I had to leave "band" practice (I try to play bass) tonight to head to #$%*sville myself.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 09:26:51 pm by JeffSTL »

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #305 on: June 06, 2014, 10:45:12 pm »
That's a very good point Bill, what rights do victims of gun crime have, compared to the rights of gun owners? How do you test someone to confirm that they're not going to use their guns against innocents?

As part of my selection for service in Special Forces, I had to undergo a full day of psychiatric testing to ensure that I wasn't nuts, then I had to attend a selection course (with an average 80% failure rate) then I had to pass a heap of physical tests, and other specialist courses, including specialist weapon training, but it seems that all a US civilian needs to obtain a lethal weapon is fill out some forms, pay a fee, wait for a "cooling off" period, and then go buy whatever guns are legal to own.

Wouldn't a psyche test for current and potential gun owners be a good start to weed out the nuts from genuine gun owners? Sure, some folks would have their guns taken off them, and some wouldn't be allowed to own guns at all, but why should their second amendment rights outweigh the rights of their potential victims, to live?

I see that a loony in Georgia has just been dispatched after he shot a deputy and tried to drive his bomb laden car into a court house. Luckily the cops were able to use their guns to kill the would be mass killer before he was able to carry out his plan. This is a good example of folks who should have guns using them to thwart the atrocities of those who obviously shouldn't. Cheers, Terry. ;D
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Offline JeffSTL

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #306 on: June 06, 2014, 11:28:49 pm »


As part of my selection for service in Special Forces, I had to undergo a full day of psychiatric testing to ensure that I wasn't nuts, then I had to attend a selection course (with an average 80% failure rate) then I had to pass a heap of physical tests, and other specialist courses, including specialist weapon training, but it seems that all a US civilian needs to obtain a lethal weapon is fill out some forms, pay a fee, wait for a "cooling off" period, and then go buy whatever guns are legal to own.



Actually Terry, it's not even that difficult. Most states allow private person to person gun sales without any kind of background check at all. All you are required to do is verify the buyer is of legal age. No fees, no cooling off, no paper work, no record of the transaction even has to be kept and no one would have any knowledge of the sale. A law passed in the 1980's allows for this. The firearms owners protection act. It is this provision that is sometimes called "the gunshow loophole". Only licensed dealers are required to perform background checks and such.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 11:34:24 pm by JeffSTL »

Offline calj737

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #307 on: June 07, 2014, 04:04:24 am »
Terry - you make excellent points with respect to victims rights. In the US, our judicial tends to be more concerned with the rights of huge accused than the rights of the victim. If this weren't the case, I doubt very seriously if any former prisoner of a violent crime would ever see the light of day again. And many who face trial, would never walk the streets again.

It's definitely an imperfect system with too many protections for the wrong-doers.

Jeff is correct, for a private sale of a firearm, there is not a background check or waiting period required. Just as with a car, a boat or a dog. But I doubt very seriously that many guns are actually sold this way by "lawful" sellers to "unlawful" buyers. Some, sure. But not enough to warrant the wholesale change in my opinion. I've certainly not heard of it being the source for a steady stream of illegally used guns if it is occurring.

With respect to the question of "rights" and which is a "priority", I don't know that our Constitution constructed them in any sequence to establish that. I do know, that their assemblage in their entirety, is constructed to provide "the pursuit of life, liberty and freedom" without assurance from risk. When violated (these rights) there is punishment, but there are no guarantees in our system.

We certainly have a long and rich tradition of hunting, shooting (sporting) and firearm ownership here. It definitely stems from our original beginnings as a country. And regardless of which set of facts you believe, violence has been on the decline as an incident rate nationally since the late '80s. What has been on the increase, is the type of shooting and the persons doing it.

This bizarre occurrence of a young person, obviously troubled, shooting up a school is most troubling. Perhaps it says something more about the social climate and mental environment of our kids and their environment than it does about our mental health system? I haven't considered the problem from that perspective, nor have I heard much about it in that way either.

There is little evidence that those who buy guns lawfully commit these atrocities. But there is evidence that a parent who has purchased a weapon, and then allowed their child to wield it in these crimes, has done so with neglect. Aside from 1 or 2 instances, the source for how these shooters obtained their guns is often not disclosed or verified. But if suspect that many of them are lawfully purchased by their parent as I said.

So we go back to a lack of parenting, to mental health/mental strain issues, grossly affecting our younger generation. It's a sad state of affairs that this epidemic is on the rise, and now, in our infinite wisdom, we've begun to legalize marijuana. And we wonder why our social health is in rapid decline...

A nation of nit-wits we are becoming!
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Offline demon78

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #308 on: June 07, 2014, 05:06:17 am »
What were they saying when they penned the words life liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Life except if it interferes with a gun owners right and where's the pursuit of happiness with a hole in me? It seems to me that we are descending into angels on pin mode. Liberty I won't go there other than dead people usually don't have much liberty they mostly go where others put them.
Terry, mostly I had to do the same thing all though not as intense as you, after all a slack and lazy pigeon was never supposed have anything more dangerous in their hands than a screwdriver or a beer, but I had to take training on weapons and they did check on my mental stability before I was allowed to play. So why does some rambot wannabee get to go and pick up something that'll shred and turn to bloody jelly their fellow citizens with no mental evaluation or training in the name of gun owners rights. Yes I know the villians don't care about rights so crush them if they use a weapon to maim, kill, intimidate.
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« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 05:26:30 am by demon74 »

Offline 70CB750

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #309 on: June 07, 2014, 05:17:32 am »
What were they saying when they penned the words life liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Life except if it interferes with a gun owners right and where's the pursuit of happiness with a hole in me? It seems to me that we are descending into angels on pin mode. Liberty I won't go there other than dead people usually don't have much liberty they mostly go where others put them.
Bill the demon.

But that is USA, how about the Canada shooting and yours Canada liberties? It did not quite work out now, did it?  All the people who face red tape just to buy a hunting rifle on top of it the great health care system and it just happens in the same way as in the USA.

Apparently the Canada way does not work either. Or does it?

Offline demon78

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #310 on: June 07, 2014, 05:35:28 am »
70 cb of course our system doesn't work, what I've being doing all a long is look for an alternative and I believe I've said that in a prior post because I can see the edge coming up, if you are trying to say that the US system is better go for it, I disagree and am trying to use your collective (American) experiences and others to make our system better.
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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #311 on: June 07, 2014, 05:39:06 am »
Your point is well put and despite my emotive "put them down comment" I'd have to agree with you.

Where I struggle, is how do we identify and prevent these atrocities using mental testing? Do we line everyone up and administer exams? Is there some universal screening process that is accurate enough and equally agreed to? Who sets the standards of unwell, wacky, or likely to be grossly violent?

It's this chasm that creates the divide between my perspective and some others. I'm not sure there is a remedy to the above, hence my emotive, "If you can't prevent this, make certain it never happens again". Inhumane? Perhaps. Uncivilized? I'll concede that too. But sometimes, harsh punishments can be sufficient deterrent to potential criminals.


I'm not sure there is a way to identify them. And harsh punishment as a deterrant could work maybe in some cases. What we CAN do is, and it'll take a generation or two, is TEACH our kids that this kind of stuff is just plain WRONG and EVIL. Something in these nut cases past, and I know there are exceptions, has caused them to be the way they are. Neglected, bullied, etc. Start when they're young, and plant good seeds.

Offline 70CB750

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #312 on: June 07, 2014, 05:51:55 am »
70 cb of course our system doesn't work, what I've being doing all a long is look for an alternative and I believe I've said that in a prior post because I can see the edge coming up, if you are trying to say that the US system is better go for it, I disagree and am trying to use your collective (American) experiences and others to make our system better.
Bill the demon.

Bill, I am not saying USA system is better, my point wad that whenever the USA health care is criticized and the gun ownership, Canada often comes as the good example.

Ok, i was being smug about, my apologies.

DH: in my experience, that is NRA. Teaching kids how to use a gun and teaching them respect to weapons.  Also hunting. Seeing the effect of gun shot on living being makes you very selective in your target.

 Now to respect human life thst would be Christianity. Put it together and you have the southern type of redneck everybody picks on  - but they dont go shoot up schools.

Offline 70CB750

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #313 on: June 07, 2014, 05:55:12 am »
Unfortunately the hip today is respect nothing, moral values are mocked and freedom to do as you please is evrybodys right.

Off my soap box now.

Offline calj737

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #314 on: June 07, 2014, 06:15:17 am »
Bill - respectfully, I think you mis characterize those who do evil deeds with those who have a strong connection to our rights, all of them in fact.

I still have not heard anyone offer to sacrifice a single pledged right from our Constitution in exchange for removing the 2nd Amendment. Anyone? So before you assail gun owners and their strict defense on their right, please understand this: the 2nd Amendment is the only right that guarantees the persistence of all the others. That is to say, that a government can not overthrow or put into subjects, it's citizens, when those citizens can and will defend themselves with firearms. Period. History proves this point without exclusion.

Now, that does not insure that all citizens with guns will behave accordingly. But does insure that the government will. Despite the horrors of these public shootings, as a percentile of the population, you can not and should not infringe the rights of ALL to address the actions of a very limited few.

US population by all common accounts = 320,000,000
Using srust's post of total gun deaths (some/many of which are lawful) 32,000.

32,000/320,000,000 = 0.0001%

That is beyond the tail wagging the dog! Please do educate me on the society that would strip it's citizens of their rights based upon that mathematical rounding error?

As for the psychological evaluations that soldiers and special forces undergo, that is far more oriented to whether under extreme stress, can they still perform and adhere to orders. Yes, there's an element of weeding the homicidal maniacs out, but moreover, it's performance under stress and the capacity to endure that is sought.

Purchasing a firearm does not infer that you will be under stress ever. So a psych test to ferret out a potential loon, well, noble idea, but who defines the criteria and administers the exam? Would I as a staunch believer in the Constitution be considered unworthy because I'd be willing to use the firearm in a dire situation? That I have no latent desire to be "Harry Callahan" discredit me? If there could be reasonable and uniformly acceptable criteria, I'd submit.

But damn, we can't even agree whether homosexuals should be allowed to marry or whether showing a state issued ID card to vote is Constitutional? And you expect us to solve our problems with guns? Someone ring the wake up bell please!
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline demon78

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #315 on: June 07, 2014, 06:55:47 am »
I could make many replies to that some flip some nasty, but it gets down to there has to be a better way, you guys for the last 30 years have portrayed yourselves as # 1 to the world, something to emulate, but there are cracks, citizen gun violence is one and it is being exported to the world now you are running up against the clash of rights and which takes precedence. I am seeing it from the perspective of a "brother" that doesn't live at home and it worries me that it (gun violence) is spilling out all over the world, so to some extent you have a responsibility to try to come up with a solution for your selves and that the rest of the world can go with. Yes your constitution is a wonderful document so was the bible and yes both have been subject to modifications, unfortunately some of the mods are not working. As far as assailing gun owners tell them not to assail me and I'm fine. I don't think that writers of the constitution had any idea what it would descend into. If you agree there is a problem rounding errors don't come into it. Pill time.
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Offline calj737

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #316 on: June 07, 2014, 07:43:00 am »
I'm not sure "crazy" is contagious with all due respect. And the gun violence plaguing the world has existed before, during and will after, what occurs here in the States.

Any claims as to the US being the worlds leader, being the #1 in anything, is boastful at best, but also true in some respects. But they are very limited examples. And I for one, don't view any of those as exempting us from social problems as a by product of our culture or social norms.

We do have a process for amending our Constitution, but it is intentionally very difficult to effect those amendments. Not sure that anything needs to be amended to it anyway. Federal laws don't need to be Constitutional amendments to be enacted. But they do need to not interfere with our Constitutional rights (all of them).

I hope you haven't inferred anything I've written as personally attacking you. Never my intention. I've found our dialogue constructive and illuminating (for me) about the perspectives of others, especially international members. If I've "rebutted" some postings, it has been solely with the intention of providing clarity (as I understand it) from the "opposing view" (even when it's not my own).

Regardless of my position on the 2nd Amendment, I cherish the 1st and 4th even more. We practice the 1st all day, every day. The 4th keeps up free from willful prosecution by an over zealous government. These two with the 2nd in my opinion, keep us a free society. With all our problems and short comings.

Hope you use sufficient lubrication when swallowing those pills. I hear Bourbon works really well! Let me know if you run short, I'd be honored to share some Southern hospitality with you.

Best-
Cal
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline BobbyR

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #317 on: June 07, 2014, 07:46:57 am »
I have said this before. This is a circular argument which will have no resolution. It is not about Canada, Australia or anywhere else in the World. it has to do with the US that has had a history of very liberal gun ownership since it's founding. It has not been much of a problem until recently.

I have posted what is believed to be the number of Guns in private hands, but the number is probably higher. No one knows and no one will find them all.

I posted a piece of a report to Congress that clearly showed that the sales skyrocketed with all of the rhetoric and people I have known all my life that never owned a Gun came to me for a recommendation and now own one.  I can tell you it was hard to get a box of Ammo around here. That has leveled off.

The Ammo shortage was blamed as a Gov't conspiracy. The NRA had an article showing it was a buying frenzy and the Ammo makers were not going to expand production for what they knew was a blip.

The media has been fueled some of this. Mentally ill people have been shown a spectacular way to act out and that is what is spilling over the border, not the guns. The guns have gone back and forth  across the border since there was a border.  I hate to call it a fad, but it is like one.

People will own Guns in the U.S. that is a fact that no one can change.  We need to start helping people who are ill and need help.
 
 
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Offline JeffSTL

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #318 on: June 07, 2014, 07:53:46 am »


Jeff is correct, for a private sale of a firearm, there is not a background check or waiting period required. Just as with a car, a boat or a dog. But I doubt very seriously that many guns are actually sold this way by "lawful" sellers to "unlawful" buyers. Some, sure. But not enough to warrant the wholesale change in my opinion. I've certainly not heard of it being the source for a steady stream of illegally used guns if it

A car, boat and even a dog have to be registered here. In Missouri, a car has to be titled, licensed, insured, have a safety inspection, pay property tax, and you have to have a lisence to drive the car. A boat has to be registered and titled before it can be put in public water and even the trailer has to be registered, licensed, and taxed. My dog had to be registered with the city and it is required that he have rabies shots.

A private gun sale? Just cash for gun and walk away. Nothing else.

Terry, you can find loads of guns for sale online. It would not be difficult at all to, if he idea popped into your head, jump online, find a gun, call and be home with a perfectly legal gun and ammo in 30 minutes or less. No one would have to know except buyer and seller.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 07:58:13 am by JeffSTL »

Offline calj737

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #319 on: June 07, 2014, 08:07:58 am »
I don't see where your post disputes the point where we agree?

I will make this comment though, the car, boat and dog thing, are all privilieges and they are not rights. Hence, they have different rules around them. To buy a firearm through a licensed dealer, the buyer must pay for a background check, pay tax, and prove that they are in fact eligible to maintain that right. And for Concealed Carry, it gets more scrutiny.

It may not be enough, nor may it be perfect, but I haven't seen a proposal for a better solution.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline JeffSTL

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #320 on: June 07, 2014, 08:15:15 am »


But damn, we can't even agree whether homosexuals should be allowed to marry or whether showing a state issued ID card to vote is Constitutional? And you expect us to solve our problems with guns? Someone ring the wake up bell please!

Actually, a majority of us can agree that homosexuals should be able to marry and the unconstitutional bans on gay marriage are dropping like flies.

Gun ownership and hunting have been on a decline since the early 70's and gun owners are not the majority in this country. Actual numbers are not possible because of our lack of regulation, but the longest standing survey on he matter shows a decline from about 50% in 1973 to about 30% in 2010. Gun sales are up, but mostly sales to people who already own guns.

The gun rights crowd speaks very loudly, but do not confuse it with a majority opinion. Your ranks are dwindling and if the the gun lobby refuses to compromise the people will eventually pull the rug out from under them.

Offline calj737

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #321 on: June 07, 2014, 08:34:02 am »
In each instance you cite a "majority opinion" which is not to say that we can all agree. On some of these matters, I doubt you'll ever get complete agreement anyway. But to say that "majority opinion" is to remove gun rights is completely inaccurate with Congressional voting records, even from the Democrats.

There is certainly public outcry in the face of these events, as well there should be. But, I will make the point again, outcry at the wrong culprit. Proof of this is the guy from Seattle. Clearly documented history of mental issues. And yet, due to his civili liberties and our failing mental health system, and very protective judicial system, he roamed the streets.

Let's hope our society doesn't devolve into one where a lack of compromise equates into Constitutional infringement. You just never know which right is next...
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline demon78

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #322 on: June 07, 2014, 08:41:51 am »
Cal if I thought you were attacking me personally my response would be totally different and Bob would be telling me at the least to straighten up, at the worst he'd be kicking me off the forum as far as illuminating goes I don't know but I know that southern north americans because of their system and history tend to navel gaze and not understand they are part of an increasingly shrinking world, northern north americans have more of a world view because of our history and system even though they don't want to, any how it seems to me as a brother that every once in a while you guys need prodding to bring you back to the 21st century.Being a 1st class #$%* disturber I guess it's my duty to poke occasionally. As to pills all the ones that I'm taking hurt my stomach so beer is my weapon of choice any thing stronger would mean that a working Teflon #$%* had been invented, plus the gorgeous young lady dr. said that the blood thinner I'm on carries the risk of bleeding in the stomach so my Single Malt sits on shelf ignored.
Bill the demon.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 08:52:47 am by demon74 »

Offline JeffSTL

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #323 on: June 07, 2014, 08:43:13 am »
The idea that the 2nd Ammendment is some kind of absolute right that gives private citizens the ability to keep and carry guns is a very recent thing in this country. The Supreme Court had always maintained that a "well regulated militia" meant military, the national guard.

James Maddison's original text as submitted to the House read:
The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country; but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.


States, counties, and cities were free to decide what gun laws worked best for their needs. A city could say nothing on the matter or a city could outright ban all guns. In fact, it wasn't until 2008 when the ultra conservative John Roberts led Supreme Court ruled that DC's handgun restriction were unconstitutional that this changed. 

The idea of an unfettered 2nd amendment right is a very new thing and is an extremist view.

Offline JeffSTL

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #324 on: June 07, 2014, 08:47:45 am »
In each instance you cite a "majority opinion" which is not to say that we can all agree. On some of these matters, I doubt you'll ever get complete agreement anyway. But to say that "majority opinion" is to remove gun rights is completely inaccurate with Congressional voting records, even

I didn't say the majority opinion is to "remove gun rights". Where did I say that? A majority does favor restrictions.  Don't confuse restrictions with taking your guns.