Author Topic: Fuel observations  (Read 6691 times)

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Offline HondaMan

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Fuel observations
« on: July 15, 2016, 06:53:02 PM »
You might say this is as viewed from 6000 feet... :D ...where I live...
Since the rebuild (in 2013), I have noticed an annoying trait that developed on the bike, which is: it would sputter on hot days in city traffic (95+ degrees F, no wind, lots of stoplights, etc.). When I would pull away from the stop, it would 'snap' as the clutch closed and sometimes even 'pop' back thru the carbs (notably #2 and #3). And, it would get mechanically noisy, and hot enough to not be able to touch the oil cap.

Hmm...this is not normal for my bike.  :(

Then, 3 weeks ago, it started happening to my car, too (contagious?). in heavy, hot traffic, it started acting similarly. I thought something went wrong, like a jumped timing gear (it only has 320k miles on it, what the heck...), as I had to re-tune the timing and carb to get the car to idle at all when hot in traffic. After changing the timing gear and finding it was only 25% worn to the "limit" (i.e., that's not the problem's source), I was really scratching my head.

After one more event like this with the bike, I realized: the carbs are boiling in the bowls, MUCH worse than this used to be (when ethanol first appeared). It used to happen with the Vetter lowers on the bike in hot, heavy traffic, so I ride in the city without those. Switching from my usual next-door gas station (Shell) to Phillips changed nothing (makes sense, they are both owned by Shell), switching to Conoco gas got me to 100 degree days before it happened again.

Wednesday this week I stumbled across a station with ethanol-free fuel, and immediately filled up: it completely solved this problem in both vehicles. The carbs don't boil now, even in 100-degree weather (Wednesday was that hot, today only 95-ish). The bike has returned to its long-appreciated (by me) personality completely, and it was all due to the gas.

The EPA is pushing to make 15% ethanol in our fuels, instead of the 10% seen in most places now. If you have not already, consider contacting the AMA to participate in their conversations with the EPA to stop this nonsense, as this will quickly damage your engine's valve stems and top ring(s). All 3 grades of fuel here in Colorado are now as clear as water, indicating that any form of lubricity is now gone entirely from the fuels. The "bronze" colors we used to see in gas was from various compounds that were intended to help lubricate top ends and keep things clean: now they instead have cleansers similar to astringents, which strip any lube from the top end altogether. Be sure to add an ounce or two of some sort of oil to your tank, at least once in a while, to give the valves and rings a 'break'. ;)

See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline jamesw

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Re: Fuel observations
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2016, 08:32:19 PM »
Good to know Mark. Something I can say for myself, that I most certainly would have overlooked (or asked here ultimately).

I'll have to look up here in Ontario to see if there are any stations selling ethanol free fuel.

This will be useful.

http://www.pure-gas.org/
« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 08:39:39 PM by jamesw »
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Offline Don R

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Re: Fuel observations
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2016, 09:00:25 PM »
 One of our local fuel suppliers mixes the fuel in the tank truck. As the price of gas vs ethanol fluctuates I'm sure so does the mix ratio. 
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Offline Johnie

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Re: Fuel observations
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2016, 07:43:00 AM »
Good info Mark. I am lucky here in WI as I have 2 ethanol free stations close to me. That is all I use in the 750's. Have never had a fuel issue. I even use the stuff in my lawn tractor. Over here they call it "recreational gas".
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Offline 72 yellow

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Re: Fuel observations
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2016, 07:50:03 AM »
Good info Mark. I am lucky here in WI as I have 2 ethanol free stations close to me. That is all I use in the 750's. Have never had a fuel issue. I even use the stuff in my lawn tractor. Over here they call it "recreational gas".
Also have a station close to me that sells it as "recreational gas".  That's all I use.  It's a Marathon Oil station.  The pump has a sticker that states 91 octane. Just filled up a little while ago $3.69 a gallon.  Detroit area.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2016, 01:30:23 PM by 72 yellow »

Offline BPellerine

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Re: Fuel observations
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2016, 09:34:49 AM »
high test in Canada has no ethanol,all I use.bill
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Offline bwaller

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Re: Fuel observations
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2016, 03:48:21 PM »
Bill I have to question that. I have also heard the same, then that only Shell 91 was free, and I can't understand why that would be either. I tested some P-Can 94 and had separation. A friend with a "bit of an in " from Ottawa claims it all contains 10% unless specified at the pump. I've never seen that sticker.  :-\  Just not sure what the truth is.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Fuel observations
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2016, 08:04:09 PM »
Bill I have to question that. I have also heard the same, then that only Shell 91 was free, and I can't understand why that would be either. I tested some P-Can 94 and had separation. A friend with a "bit of an in " from Ottawa claims it all contains 10% unless specified at the pump. I've never seen that sticker.  :-\  Just not sure what the truth is.

Here in Colorado, the Shell 91 is the stuff that boils easily. But in this area, it is AT LEAST 10% ethanol, by law.
Grr...
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
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Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Fuel observations
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2016, 11:54:11 PM »
beware... if you have jetted your bike to run well on 10 percent, running the pure #$%* ain't gonna help
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline alacrity

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Re: Fuel observations
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2016, 11:15:09 PM »
Mark says, "some kind of oil."

Marvel mystery is good for this.
Sea foam is good for this.

Olive, canola, and oil of "Olay" are not good for this.
I recently restored and sold a 77 cb750f, and am nearly finished with a (former basket case) cb750k5.  This is a place to share, learn and enjoy.  I am grateful to and for 99+% of this site's membership.

Offline PeWe

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Re: Fuel observations
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2016, 02:58:26 AM »
"Only" 5% ethanol here today. It seems that politicians have problems to see the whole picture and understand the concequences they create.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indirect_land_use_change_impacts_of_biofuels

Edit: I have had problems too when waiting for red light during hot summer days. I must give more throttle, rev the engine just before taking off. If not, engine will die. Mostly seen on my cars. I understand old car with carburator where the fuel seems to have boiled away when waiting.
My car of today with Audi 1.8T 2004 Quattro (190hp tweaked to 230-240hp with program and complete sport exhaust, cat included) has fuel injection (not direct injection as the newer cars) Same with this one hot days waiting on idle some minutes when hot. Weather and engine.

Better with full sport exhaust since it breath much better from low rpm. Standard cat too restrictful.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 01:07:31 AM by PeWe »
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Offline 01Thomas

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Re: Fuel observations
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2016, 01:35:43 PM »
If you have the space, as you do in a car, you could concoct a fuel cooler.
You could even make up something small for a bike using a computer cooling fan blasting air through a small fuel cooler for when you're at standstill at a traffic light.
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Offline grcamna2

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Re: Fuel observations
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2016, 01:46:25 PM »
beware... if you have jetted your bike to run well on 10 percent, running the pure #$%* ain't gonna help

I've noticed that;the E-Free 91 octane fuel seems to run richer for me.
I need to remember this because I broke-in my engine w/ 91 oct. E-Free and need to take jets to go one step up when i start running E-junk 91 oct.
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Offline Pat_at_APE

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Re: Fuel observations
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2016, 02:54:19 PM »
Another source for ethanol free fuel is your local airport.  The 100LL (low lead) fuel is great but expensive.   It's also a bit dry so adding some Marvel Mystery Oil helps the top end a great deal. 

Do not use it in any modern bike with a catalytic converter because the lead will clog it up and will ruin any O2 sensors. 

Cheers,
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Fuel observations
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2016, 05:01:47 AM »
It is in my signature, but here it goes again:  :)

http://www.pure-gas.org/

List for Hondaman:   :)

http://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=CO

You can even get an app for you smart phone - called Pure Gas - that helps you locate nearest 100% gas station.

I go out of my way - 40 miles - to get gas for small engines I use on our land.
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Pure Gas - find ethanol free gas station near you

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Offline Pat_at_APE

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Re: Fuel observations
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2016, 12:01:51 PM »
That's cool but.... Closest gas to me by that map is a 3 hour drive. 

Pat

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Fuel observations
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2016, 02:18:49 PM »
That's cool but.... Closest gas to me by that map is a 3 hour drive. 

Pat

I've noticed that ethanol free fuel seems to degrade a lot less when in storage and cool compared to how quickly ethanol gasoline turns bad.You might take the 3 hr. drive and fill up a few containers to stock-up,it may be cheaper than 100oct. AV fuel although I certainly enjoy how that AV fuel runs  ;D
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  I love the small ones too !
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Offline Dunk

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Re: Fuel observations
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2016, 07:16:23 PM »
Nothing available in my liberal tree hugger home state. At the lake house one of the marinas has good ol' MTBE and no ethanol trucked in from Canada, only 91 octane but that's all that's available in that area for some reason. One summer they were selling it significantly cheaper than 91 at the pumps in town, was taking cans in the boat to the pump to fill the truck! I may bring 20 gal or so back with me next month and see if I notice any difference in the bike.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Fuel observations
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2016, 10:10:00 PM »
That's cool but.... Closest gas to me by that map is a 3 hour drive. 

Pat

I've noticed that ethanol free fuel seems to degrade a lot less when in storage and cool compared to how quickly ethanol gasoline turns bad.You might take the 3 hr. drive and fill up a few containers to stock-up,it may be cheaper than 100oct. AV fuel although I certainly enjoy how that AV fuel runs  ;D

Roger that: in the bikes and my mower, the E-gas goes bad within 2 weeks here. Last summer I actually poured some of it on the concrete (it turns a brown color) after draining it from the bottom of my tank, and tried to light it with a match: it wouldn't even burn. As a test, I tried some 'fresh' gas from my lawn mower's can that afternoon, and it burned fine on the same concrete (it's cracked and broken anyway... :(  ).
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline 70CB750

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Re: Fuel observations
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2016, 04:13:11 AM »
Further I go from the evil vortex - aka D.C. - easier it is to find real gas  ;D

Nothing available in my liberal tree hugger home state. At the lake house one of the marinas has good ol' MTBE and no ethanol trucked in from Canada, only 91 octane but that's all that's available in that area for some reason. One summer they were selling it significantly cheaper than 91 at the pumps in town, was taking cans in the boat to the pump to fill the truck! I may bring 20 gal or so back with me next month and see if I notice any difference in the bike.
Prokop
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Pure Gas - find ethanol free gas station near you

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Offline yellowjacket

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Re: Fuel observations
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2016, 05:39:48 AM »
Move to Billings ethanol free gas is all over the place.

Offline Smoke Detector

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Re: Fuel observations
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2016, 06:52:48 AM »
I have some more info to add, all of it is anecdotal so take it with a grain of salt:
Here in Ontario, I've heard different info about Shell gas. From asking around (station owners), I think the 91 octane used to be ethanol free but that changed in the last year or so, and all their newer pumps now have that "may contain up to 10% ethanol" sticker.
At the cottage I buy marine gas. Owner told me she gets it from Ultramar who, according to her, is the only supplier of ethanol-free gas locally.
Owner of a performance bike shop near me was the one who told me about the change with Shell. He also told me a trick some guys do: install a tap in a jerry can about 20% of the way from the bottom, let the gas sit for 2-3 weeks until it separates, use the tap to get at the good gas from the top 80%, and then dispose the contents of the bottom 20% of the container. (I haven't tried this myself and don't know enough about the science of separation of ethanol to verify whether the top 80% would be "good" gas after this process.)


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Offline 72 yellow

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Re: Fuel observations
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2016, 07:12:34 AM »
I also wonder about the large price difference between regular ethanol and the ethanol  free gas here.  It's about $1.50 a gallon more.  And I can see the refinery where it's made from my house.  I get to breathe the pollution for free, but get no break on price.  Insert pissed off emoji here.

Offline JohnC

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Re: Fuel observations
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2016, 03:47:53 PM »
I just bought 15 gallons of e-free in southern Alabama this afternoon.  It cost $2.99 a gallon; crappy gas costs $2.05, but I will only run e-free in my mowers and bike.  The cheap stuff clogs up carburetors.
John

Offline bender01

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Re: Fuel observations
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2016, 06:45:57 PM »
Im lucky to live in a coastal area! We have I think 89 ethanol free at many Stations. Its called marine gas here. Its all I run in my tools and toys.  regular 87 was 1.59 today!!  Need to fill my boat soon! It could be close to $2 a gallon.
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So, the strategy is to lie to people you are asking for help?

I think I'll be busy going for a ride.

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