Topic: Bye Bye Dyna! It's been real.

[USMC5811]

Generally fours are over square  meaning the bore measures bigger than the stroke..better for up and worse for torque.
Long stroke or under square like the HD, make  more torque m but less hp... characteristically. .

Over square equals a revvy engine, Over square revs lower.

So, where do opposing cylinders (BMW, Ural) or "offset V" (Moto Guzzi) fall into all this?
*Yeah, sorta off topic, but I always thought that rear-wheel torque was handled by the transmission gearing*


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[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

I like the lesser dressage versions.

The green one is actually an XSR700 based on the FZ-07 650cc twin cylinder.  It's not sold in the US.

[754]

Just look at bore to stroke ratio as I explained, regardless of number of cylinders or their layout.

[Bailgang]

Just look at borevto stroke ratio as I explain, regardless of number of cylinders or their layout.

That's just part of it, the other and maybe the more influential reason for an HD's power characteristics is the V angle of the cyls combined with a single pin crank which is why a HD idles so choppy and has it's distinctive sound and vibration. Great for low end TQ, not so good for top end HP.

[Geeto67]

But, without other engine layouts to draw upon it does limit their market.
You will not be buying a Harley adventure tourer anytime, nor would you ever see a Harley sport bike.  For a company that only makes motorcycles - they are strangely limited.

Harley's cult of personality is it's worst enemy. But....I should clarify a few things:

Harley sold an adventure tourer, it was called the Buell Ulysses  and was a very capable competitor in the market. When Buell went, so went the Ulysses. Here is Pete Egan explaining why he loved his:
http://www.cycleworld.com/peter-egan-very-long-term-buell-ulysses-adventure-touring-motorcycle#page-2

Buell also covered the sportbike market for HD pretty well for not having a true superbike in the hunt. Every buell owner I have met loves theirs.

And Harley does have 1 engine layout in that it is a v-twin, but some may argue that a v-twin is pretty versatile in all segments.  ducati, guzzi, and bmw have proven that twins are still relevant sporting motorcycles, most adventure bikes are twins, etc. Within that V-twin engine "Layout" HD actually has several different engines doing different things:

The Revolution X engine is 60 degrees, SOHC, water cooled, and doing duty in the new 500 and 750 entry level "World motorcycles". In top trim it makes 68hp and 47 ft lbs of torque out of an over-square 750cc (45ci) engine and is meant to compete with the FZ-07 which is also a twin (albeit parallel) and makes 66hp and 45 ft/lbs torque. I don't know that you can say that HD isn't covering this entry level market with a twin when you look at other comparable bikes in the market place.

The Revolution engine in the V-rod, which is apparently dead for 2018, is also 60 degrees, SOHC, water cooled, and makes decent power. Originally derived from the VR1000 Superbike road racer from the 1990's, the engine grew to heavy to be a sportbike engine and wasn't big enough in displacement to be a touring bike engine so that didn't leave them with many options as to what kind of bike to build around it. In the end they got a bike that was between a sportster and a big twin. Here is one of those places where HD's cult of personality hurt them - HD fans for some reason hate the sportster. It's the bike they make fun of by calling them skirtsters, but there is a market for a sporting roadster HD because that was the role the dyna tried to fill (esp with bikes like the T-sport) but not well.  They were poised to make fun of the V-rod too, but HD pulled out all the stops and built something really special in a sporting roadster that used brushed stainless steel and modern custom styling that made enough people part with $20K for one in the first year. While traditionalists did their usual burn them at the stake rant, the V-rod brought in a new demographic of HD buyer who didn't want to play sons of Anarchy, but wanted a really special cruiser motorcycle that wasn't worthless after 5 years. It just couldn't hang on to that market because it didn't develop. It did manage to grab a whole bunch of drag racing fans because HD decided to re-enter pro-stock racing and all the race bikes looked like v-rods.

So my point is you can't pretend they don't try things, and sometimes pull them off. They went roadracing in superbike in the 1990s that led to a change in the market and the invention of the muscle crusier, and also positioned them to dominate drag racing and give them a platform for a true "world" motorcycle.

It's just that the marketing machine and the cult of HD personality is louder than the innovation and they don't get the credit.

[J-Rod10]

But, without other engine layouts to draw upon it does limit their market.
You will not be buying a Harley adventure tourer anytime, nor would you ever see a Harley sport bike.  For a company that only makes motorcycles - they are strangely limited.

Harley's cult of personality is it's worst enemy. But....I should clarify a few things:

Harley sold an adventure tourer, it was called the Buell Ulysses  and was a very capable competitor in the market. When Buell went, so went the Ulysses. Here is Pete Egan explaining why he loved his:
http://www.cycleworld.com/peter-egan-very-long-term-buell-ulysses-adventure-touring-motorcycle#page-2

Buell also covered the sportbike market for HD pretty well for not having a true superbike in the hunt. Every buell owner I have met loves theirs.

And Harley does have 1 engine layout in that it is a v-twin, but some may argue that a v-twin is pretty versatile in all segments.  ducati, guzzi, and bmw have proven that twins are still relevant sporting motorcycles, most adventure bikes are twins, etc. Within that V-twin engine "Layout" HD actually has several different engines doing different things:

The Revolution X engine is 60 degrees, SOHC, water cooled, and doing duty in the new 500 and 750 entry level "World motorcycles". In top trim it makes 68hp and 47 ft lbs of torque out of an over-square 750cc (45ci) engine and is meant to compete with the FZ-07 which is also a twin (albeit parallel) and makes 66hp and 45 ft/lbs torque. I don't know that you can say that HD isn't covering this entry level market with a twin when you look at other comparable bikes in the market place.

The Revolution engine in the V-rod, which is apparently dead for 2018, is also 60 degrees, SOHC, water cooled, and makes decent power. Originally derived from the VR1000 Superbike road racer from the 1990's, the engine grew to heavy to be a sportbike engine and wasn't big enough in displacement to be a touring bike engine so that didn't leave them with many options as to what kind of bike to build around it. In the end they got a bike that was between a sportster and a big twin. Here is one of those places where HD's cult of personality hurt them - HD fans for some reason hate the sportster. It's the bike they make fun of by calling them skirtsters, but there is a market for a sporting roadster HD because that was the role the dyna tried to fill (esp with bikes like the T-sport) but not well.  They were poised to make fun of the V-rod too, but HD pulled out all the stops and built something really special in a sporting roadster that used brushed stainless steel and modern custom styling that made enough people part with $20K for one in the first year. While traditionalists did their usual burn them at the stake rant, the V-rod brought in a new demographic of HD buyer who didn't want to play sons of Anarchy, but wanted a really special cruiser motorcycle that wasn't worthless after 5 years. It just couldn't hang on to that market because it didn't develop. It did manage to grab a whole bunch of drag racing fans because HD decided to re-enter pro-stock racing and all the race bikes looked like v-rods.

So my point is you can't pretend they don't try things, and sometimes pull them off. They went roadracing in superbike in the 1990s that led to a change in the market and the invention of the muscle crusier, and also positioned them to dominate drag racing and give them a platform for a true "world" motorcycle.

It's just that the marketing machine and the cult of HD personality is louder than the innovation and they don't get the credit.

I'm not arguing they don't try some things. They do, occasionally. I've seen where Erik Buell has said he developed the engine that ended up in the Vrod in the late 80's. Harley shelved it. Brought it back a decade later with a Porsche designed cooling system, and called it the Vrod. The VR, another decade old engine before it hit the track.

Harley is making at attempt at the entry level market. I think they'll have a hard time with their offerings. The numbers may be similar, but they aren't the same quality of bike as the FZ. FZ is light, nimble. The Street, not as much. And, they look cheap. When you think Harley, you don't think a ton of plastic.

[754]

 I think all bikes have plastic now..

[Fezzler]

Cadillac Cimarron? 

[BomberMann650]

I think all bikes have plastic now..

Yep.  It's a much easier material to manufacture in bulk.  And for small parts that hold little or no structural duty, it's a brilliant weight saver.

Unfortunately, due to its inherent flaws in durability and oft not-recycled - it becomes garbage in a landfill. 

[Geeto67]

I'm not arguing they don't try some things. They do, occasionally. I've seen where Erik Buell has said he developed the engine that ended up in the Vrod in the late 80's. Harley shelved it. Brought it back a decade later with a Porsche designed cooling system, and called it the Vrod. The VR, another decade old engine before it hit the track.

Harley is making at attempt at the entry level market. I think they'll have a hard time with their offerings. The numbers may be similar, but they aren't the same quality of bike as the FZ. FZ is light, nimble. The Street, not as much. And, they look cheap. When you think Harley, you don't think a ton of plastic.

FZ-07 is 400 lbs. Street rod is 500lbs. about 100 lbs difference which is significant, so I'll spot you the weight. Still, in terms of price and market segment, the HD brings other pluses to the table, like not being almost worthless 2 years after purchase. Seriously, I can't bring myself to buy japanese new anymore when they lose 20-50% of their value in under 5 years.

Looking cheap, eh...maybe compared to other HDs, but at the moment it's still probably the best fit and finish in class. have you seen how the Japanese paint bikes? the only people worse are the Italians. 

Erik Buell worked as an HD engineer from 79-83. His primary focus was chassis design and he was rehired to design the VR1000 chassis. He laid out the basic structure for the engine using mostly cosworth car engine engineering specs but the actual engine was designed by Mark Miller, Jerry Branch, and Cosworth off of buell's initial specs. I think they got a prototype built in 1989 so this was probably around 85-86 when they started. Rousch was brought into the mix in 1989 to fix issues with the top end. By this time pretty much all of buell's original specs had been changed to make the engine work, even his rubbermounting of the cases had been abandoned. Buell not being inhouse at the time was also replaced as chassis designer when the project was completely brought inhouse in 1991. The VR1000 was further developed the entire time it was racing until 1995 when the program was shelved. They they handed the VR1000 engine over to porsche for reworking into the Vrod engine which ended up sharing only the bore and stroke of the VR1000 and no actual parts. So Buell claiming he designed the engine that became the vrod is a little tenuous. Harley didn't "shelve" it at all - they took buell's...um...sketches is probably the best term, hired the most experienced people in their field to make something that actually worked, and then took that thing that worked and remade it again to something else entirely. And they did it almost all in house in the USA. They built 50 "Road legal" (in germany only) homolagation units also so they are floating out there. Buell, had wanted the VR1000 to end up their top tier sport bike, and continued his own work after leaving the VR1000 project and that eventually became the barracuda. It's a lot to process. Where HD lost the thread is they didn't win world superbike but ducati did, and by the time the VR was in fighting shape Ducati wasn't competitive either anymore and the fours were dominating. Had they won, we could have had a top tier HD sportbike on the streets. Even losing the efforts and the products that resulted changed the marketplace - both in proving Buell was a viable exercise for HD to fund in making streetbikes, in reviving the muscle cruiser, and proving their market share would embrace the right kind of different product.

HD is HD, they will be fine in the entry level market place. They sold the sportster for 70 years as an entry level and it still works.

[BomberMann650]

What are the price points on the new "entry-level" harleys?

Cause I think $8,000 is the ticket for a few of the japanese entry bikes.  Cmiiw

Edit; I guessed high.  $6,000 is the price to beat.  (Groms and 300cc bikes notwithstanding)
There are 2017 bikes being sold with an msrp around 5g's even.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

What are the price points on the new "entry-level" harleys?

Cause I think $8,000 is the ticket for a few of the japanese entry bikes.  Cmiiw

Edit; I guessed high.  $6,000 is the price to beat.  (Groms and 300cc bikes notwithstanding)
There are 2017 bikes being sold with an msrp around 5g's even.

The HD Street 500 is listed at $6,899.  I wouldn't buy one.  Too heavy and not my thing.  I prefer light and nimble bikes.

I suppose if I was going to buy a HD, it might be based off a Sportster, given the gazillion aftermarket parts available, but I still am not interested. 

[eigenvector]

If I didn't already have 5 bikes, I'd actually buy the 500.  For me it would be the only way I could see myself owning a Harley.  Big heavy loud cruisers aren't my thing which is why I've stayed away from them - so a smaller bike would be fine.  The price isn't bad - and if I hated it, I could always mod the heck out of it.

[Bailgang]

 It did manage to grab a whole bunch of drag racing fans because HD decided to re-enter pro-stock racing and all the race bikes looked like v-rods.

So my point is you can't pretend they don't try things, and sometimes pull them off. They went roadracing in superbike in the 1990s that led to a change in the market and the invention of the muscle crusier, and also positioned them to dominate drag racing and give them a platform for a true "world" motorcycle.

The NHRA changes it's pro stock bike rules on an almost monthly basis so I have no clue what the current pro stock bike rules are but as of 2013 the Vance/Hines, S&S, and Buell "Harleys" needed 800+ more cc's to be competitive with the Suzukis which were based on 20 year old GS engines. It's hard to have a platform for a true world motorcycle when you need that much rules tweaking to be competitive. The only reason you see HD's in pro stock is because the class was dying. Prior to HD getting involved, when a pro stock bike final would come up that's when the fans in the stands went to the washroom or hit the refreshment stands because it was almost a guarantee it would be a pair of Suzukis with engines most likely prepped by V&H. If pro stock bike wanted to survive then it needed some diversity and the Jap bike teams knew it, that's where HD comes in and big changes in the rules were needed to make it happen. The Jap bike crowd continues to this day to cry and moan about the differences in rules and I must admit it is kind of bogus BUT it has revitalized the class, drawn more fans back and more sponsors too.

[J-Rod10]

Harley has been the same with flat track. Rule changes to suit them.

Bad thing for them, the AMA no longer runs flat track, and Indian is an American manufacturer as well. Indian is killing it this year.


Local here has a Street 500. It sounds like a push mower.

[Bailgang]

Harley has been the same with flat track. Rule changes to suit them.

Bad thing for them, the AMA no longer runs flat track, and Indian is an American manufacturer as well. Indian is killing it this year.


Local here has a Street 500. It sounds like a push mower.

You wont see an inline 4 or V4 in flat track or anything with more than 2 cyls in flat track because 2 cyls is (was) the max.

[Geeto67]

The NHRA changes it's pro stock bike rules on an almost monthly basis so I have no clue what the current pro stock bike rules are but as of 2013 the Vance/Hines, S&S, and Buell "Harleys" needed 800+ more cc's to be competitive with the Suzukis which were based on 20 year old GS engines.

Slow your roll there. The Suzuki's are based on "30 year old" engine designs (the original GS1150 from the early 80's) that have undergone 30+ years of evolution. To say that prostock is based on a 20 year old suzuki engine is like saying a top fuel hemi is based on a 1950's 331 red ram hemi out of a desoto. It's kind of accurate, but the two really don't share anything anymore but a name. as of right now there are two different HD engines in pro-stock: The Vance and Hines engines which are sorta, kinda, based on a vrod if you squint, and the S&S engines that indian now uses that buell used to use. Here's a pretty good write up:

http://www.cycleworld.com/inside-ss-cycle-polaris-pro-stock-motorcycle-drag-racing-engine

Also, the Volumetric Efficiency (VE) of twins is different than the VE of fours, so every single racing organization recognizes this and puts it in their rules. In road racing sidevalves are spoted 250ccs, singles are spoted an .80 overbore while  fours are only spotted .20, and 1000cc twins routinely run with 750 fours or in different classes all together. there are also weight breaks for different bikes depending on the powerplant. The goal is to adjust the configuration so that every vehicle is withing a margin of performance and then the sport becomes about the rider. If you want to see unregulated racing that is all in or nothing watch motoGP or top fuel motorcycle in IHRA. 

It's hard to have a platform for a true world motorcycle when you need that much rules tweaking to be competitive. The only reason you see HD's in pro stock is because the class was dying. Prior to HD getting involved, when a pro stock bike final would come up that's when the fans in the stands went to the washroom or hit the refreshment stands because it was almost a guarantee it would be a pair of Suzukis with engines most likely prepped by V&H. If pro stock bike wanted to survive then it needed some diversity and the Jap bike teams knew it, that's where HD comes in and big changes in the rules were needed to make it happen. The Jap bike crowd continues to this day to cry and moan about the differences in rules and I must admit it is kind of bogus BUT it has revitalized the class, drawn more fans back and more sponsors too.

Your argument would be more compelling if you were talking about flat track, where the rules have been specifically retooled to keep the XR750 competitive (and even now it is still losing ground). However, you are just #$%*ing about what every racing organization has known for decades, different engine configurations make power differently and require different rules to put everyone in the same performance index. There are true heads up unlimited classes, but pro-stock has never really been one (top fuel and funny car on the other hand have).

[Lostboy Steve]

Right, but the sportster is the right type of entry level because it doesn't absolutely have to be entry level.

The street 500 and street 750 are not "light and nimble" unless you're comparing them to other Harley's, which is exactly my point.

On the other hand, anyone who has ridden an ultra and then a softail will tell you that the ultra (trunk and all) handles way better than a softail. The ultra also gets down lower through the turns.



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[BomberMann650]

Speaking of harley davidsons and racing (story time kids!)

Long ago harley and moto guzzi were competing in the same class.

Guzzi was kickin harley's ass so hard, harley got a brilliant idea!  Harley davidison sent their best mooks to petition the race officials to limit the physical Width of bikes in the race.

It was a clever move on harley's part.  The race officials sided that all competition bikes must pass through a chute to be eligible to compete.  Now this forced moto guzzi (harley's rival du jour) out of the races.
Guzzi's transverse v-twins could not meet the new regulation width.

Then the guzzi team noticed something.  It was only the edges of their valve cover that would prohibit their bikes from passing the test.

So moto guzzi cast a new valve cover for their competition bike!  And thus, the slanted guzzi valve cover was born.

Then they kicked harley's ass on the track.  Again.

Moral of the story; sore losers will be doubly sore when they lose a rigged game.

[Geeto67]

Right, but the sportster is the right type of entry level because it doesn't absolutely have to be entry level.

That's an interesting point and actually 100% correct. The sportster was probably the most "approachable" motorcycle in the line up as a jack of some trades and did enough things well that if you didn't need to you could not outgrow it. Everyone I have ever known with a ninja 250 eventually sold it and bought something bigger because even for commuting they out grew it. The only guy I ever knew that purposely searched out small displacement "beginner bikes" as a commuter is Dave Roper (the IOM TT winner). He rode around brooklyn for years on I think an 80's VTR250 and before that it might have been an ex250. But that guy is fast on anything.

The street 500 and street 750 are not "light and nimble" unless you're comparing them to other Harley's, which is exactly my point.

have you ridden one yet? I have sat on a few, and I really do want to ride one just to see what it is like, but sitting on it - it doesn't feel like a 500lb bike. It feels small to me because I am tall, but I betcha it feels nimble enough for most riders. It's never going to feel like a 375lb ninja 250, but let's be honest - few things will, there are 70's two strokes that are heavier than the little ninjette. 

On the other hand, anyone who has ridden an ultra and then a softail will tell you that the ultra (trunk and all) handles way better than a softail. The ultra also gets down lower through the turns.

the bikes that compete with the goldwing have to work. People who buy those buy them for 2 reasons: how well they work (including comfort) and how good the bodywork looks. HD pours cubic cash into them and then asks $27,000 for them and when you ride it you know exactly where the money went. they don't have to spend money on frames that look like hardtails, or other visual gimmickry that isn't related to the shape of saddlebags and fairings because...well...the bags and fairings hide all the ugly.

the bikes I have always loved riding, despite never owning one, are the police bikes. Stock trim they just work. I have lots of buddies that bought cheap ones at auctions and then applied all the usual HD visual crap to it and the bike never rode the same.   

[Geeto67]

Speaking of harley davidsons and racing (story time kids!)

Long ago harley and moto guzzi were competing in the same class.

Guzzi was kickin harley's ass so hard, harley got a brilliant idea!  Harley davidison sent their best mooks to petition the race officials to limit the physical Width of bikes in the race.

It was a clever move on harley's part.  The race officials sided that all competition bikes must pass through a chute to be eligible to compete.  Now this forced moto guzzi (harley's rival du jour) out of the races.
Guzzi's transverse v-twins could not meet the new regulation width.

Then the guzzi team noticed something.  It was only the edges of their valve cover that would prohibit their bikes from passing the test.

So moto guzzi cast a new valve cover for their competition bike!  And thus, the slanted guzzi valve cover was born.

Then they kicked harley's ass on the track.  Again.

Moral of the story; sore losers will be doubly sore when they lose a rigged game.

I'm gonna call bull on that unless you can cite a source on it. The only modern racing that I can think of where Guzzi and HD would be on the same track is the BOTT series, Guzzi didn't even make a V engine until 1967.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

It would be nice if HD or Indian made an accessible to most bike based off its current race bikes as a street tracker, so that consumers could have it on the street or easily convert to dirt for Hooligan style racing (stock frame).  The Indian FTR (Flat Track Racer) is obviously kicking the teeth out of the HD Street 750-based flat track racer; Indian will be selling the FTR for $50K (mostly for privateers and you have to have 2 to compete), but it would be prudent for both brands to make a more affordable version.  It helps that Indian assembled a Wrecking Crew of the top 3 riders this year.

[Geeto67]

It would be nice if HD or Indian made an accessible to most bike based off its current race bikes as a street tracker, so that consumers could have it on the street or easily convert to dirt for Hooligan style racing (stock frame).  The Indian FTR (Flat Track Racer) is obviously kicking the teeth out of the HD Street 750-based flat track racer; Indian will be selling the FTR for $50K (mostly for privateers and you have to have 2 to compete), but it would be prudent for both brands to make a more affordable version.  It helps that Indian assembled a Wrecking Crew of the top 3 riders this year.

They did that - it was called the XR1200. Vance and Hines sold a conversion kit for a road racer and Harley even sponsored a series. Nobody bought them and HD cancelled the bike in the US.

as for flat track - there are a dozen companies that sell racing parts for sportsters for amateur flat track. People even keep them as street bikes between racing them. Just not very many.  here is an example for sale in my neighborhood:
https://akroncanton.craigslist.org/mcy/d/1996-harley-sportster-flat/6234565135.html

[Desert-SOHC]

HD should bring back there "upgrade" sales strategy back.  I remember when you paid something like $3999 for an 883 Sportster and HD would give you that for a trade-in in 2 years...it got ALOT of people into HD's.  I've rode pretty much all the traditional HD's and the Dyna line always rode better than the "slop"tails, and had less vibration due to the rubber mounted engine like the touring line.  I haven't looked at the street series and while I wouldn't buy one, I would like to see how they ride.  I've got a sort of "home" Moco dealer that I've delt with through the years and they do rentals, so I can test ride whatever they rent, may have to take a little trip on the K8 and see......lol.

I've always wanted a Dyna, there's a trend going on with turning them into early FL styled "retro" bikes.  With the suspension upgrades that are available for them they become pretty "flickable" for a Harley.  There a bit smaller and lighter than a Road King and WAAAAAAYY cheaper to buy.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

It would be nice if HD or Indian made an accessible to most bike based off its current race bikes as a street tracker, so that consumers could have it on the street or easily convert to dirt for Hooligan style racing (stock frame).  The Indian FTR (Flat Track Racer) is obviously kicking the teeth out of the HD Street 750-based flat track racer; Indian will be selling the FTR for $50K (mostly for privateers and you have to have 2 to compete), but it would be prudent for both brands to make a more affordable version.  It helps that Indian assembled a Wrecking Crew of the top 3 riders this year.

They did that - it was called the XR1200. Vance and Hines sold a conversion kit for a road racer and Harley even sponsored a series. Nobody bought them and HD cancelled the bike in the US.

as for flat track - there are a dozen companies that sell racing parts for sportsters for amateur flat track. People even keep them as street bikes between racing them. Just not very many.  here is an example for sale in my neighborhood:
https://akroncanton.craigslist.org/mcy/d/1996-harley-sportster-flat/6234565135.html

It might be that the XR1200 was too poor of a seller that HD will not do a factory version for the current Street 750-based racer -- or they might come out with one in the future.  Who knows.  It would probably help if they could win more races on it against Indian.  HD spends oodles on marketing and even does invited/sponsored custom builds (like at Born Free) to showcase this model and the Street Rod.  As I recall the XR1200 is now a sought-after bike.

It'll be interesting to see how flat track racing grows or plateaus in the coming years.  That could drive more sales in this category (race on Sunday, sell on Monday).