testy

Author Topic: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...  (Read 657 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline stou

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 97
    • Stoudesign
Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« on: October 28, 2018, 09:16:30 am »
I had a bad luck this morning! The buttom hose at the back of my Motion Pro carb sync tool disconected and all the mercury went down. I know it is very hard to get mercury now. I just wonder if it can work with oil?

Anyone had this kind of problem? I searched but didn't found nothing on replacement fluid that can work other than mercury.

Honda CR125M1 1974
Honda CB750K7 1977
Honda TLR200 1986
Honda CRF1000L 2016
My CB750 build: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,174710.0.html

Offline ekpent

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,050
  • To many bikes-but lookin' for more
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2018, 09:19:24 am »
 Wonder if automatic trans fluid would work ??

Offline MauiK3

  • A K3 is saved
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 494
  • candy blue-green, iPhone doesn't show the green
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2018, 10:08:16 am »
I’m pretty sure the tube lengths are unique to the weight of mercury. The tool might be a paperweight without mercury.
1973 CB 750 K3
2009 Ruckus!

Offline beemerbum

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 477
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2018, 10:30:50 am »
I hope you were careful with the spilled Hg. That stuff is highly toxic

Offline carnivorous chicken

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 795
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2018, 12:22:34 pm »
You can order it from Oregon -- there is a guy who makes the same style tool as the old Motion Pro mercury ones, and he sells replacement vial of mercury. I ordered it and received it when I lived in Boston -- I am guessing OR is more lax when it comes to selling the stuff, and wasn't sure that it would arrive in MA but it did, and the box had some kind of hazardous content labelling. Dig around and see if you can find it, if not I can try to look it up, although it's been 3-4 years.

Offline stou

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 97
    • Stoudesign
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2018, 12:27:29 pm »
I don't think mercury will pass the border to Canada ;-)

I did a test with some light trans oil and I think it will work. I have a friend's bike to sync next week, I'll let you know if it work with light oil.
Honda CR125M1 1974
Honda CB750K7 1977
Honda TLR200 1986
Honda CRF1000L 2016
My CB750 build: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,174710.0.html

Offline Bodi

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,625
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2018, 03:07:11 pm »
It isn't the viscosity that matters, it's the specific gravity - mass per volume. Oil is lighter than water. Mercury is 13.6 times heavier than water.
Try whatever you like, but I believe no other fluid will suffice in carb sticks designed for mercury.
And be careful about the spilled mercury. Try and vacuum it up and then dispose of the filter bag. Technically it will be hazardous waste and illegal to toss in household garbage in pretty much any jurisdiction.

Offline 70CB750

  • Labor omnia vincit improbus.
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,153
  • Northern Virginia
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2018, 04:29:03 pm »
Funny, i dont remember how many mercury thermometers i broke in my bed when i was a kid.

Nowadays, Americans would evacuate the whole house, because everybody knows that mercury kills on sight.

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

  • This MuthaF'er is getting to be a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,434
  • Bought her new 4/75
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2018, 04:45:33 pm »
I agree. Pure paranoia.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline 754

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 25,264
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2018, 04:57:27 pm »
 Someone should have some scrap mercury.
 Bad part is you can't just run an ad without drawing attention.
 Trying to think of a trade that used it a lot..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline pjlogue

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 418
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2018, 05:15:50 pm »
You might try a science supply house.

-P.

Offline Tracksnblades1

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 81
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2018, 07:37:01 pm »
If you want to split hairs. Water column manometers will work to sync with.
Howerever they tend to be tall if using u-tube type.
1" mercury= 13.609" of water

Or 13.595" seems to be a disagreement.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 07:42:28 pm by Tracksnblades1 »
Age Quod Agis

Offline jgger

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 686
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2018, 11:17:59 pm »
Might try scavenging some junk yards for under the hood light switches. They used mercury in those for quite some  time. Also heater thermostats for houses used mercury. Just a thought if everything else is a dead end.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 11:19:35 pm by jgger »

Offline awrawr

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 36
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2018, 01:14:06 am »
I made my own set of water manometers. THe tube length for the open ended type would be impractical for water, so i bunged up one end, taking care to ensure all four were bunged up with an equal level of water (dyed blue for better visibility). This is easily achieved  by fixing  the 4 lengths of plastic tube to a plank  and  filling them with blue water and then adjusting their relative heights until all the levels are the same and then chopping off the tops at an equal height and bunging the open ends up to make an airtight seal using a suitable size screw with some silicone sealant . The gap between the top of the water and the sealed end forms a partial vacuum called the torricelli vacuum (google it) when you apply suction to the open end ( for example when you connect a running engine). Volume of the trapped air in all four tubes has to be the same for the water levels to respond identically to changes in vacuum from the engine.

Provided you calibrate them so that all the water levels are equal AND they all have the same volume of air trapped in the blind sealed end AND there is sufficient vacuum to prevent the suction from the engine drawing the water through into the combustion chambers, you will have four equally accurate manometers capable of balancing your carburettors very nicely.

I connected the open end of the plastic tube to the inlet pilot holes using 6mm brake nipples cut down so they didn't interfere with the air flow inside the air inlet stubs. As the engine warms up the plastic tube did tend to get a bit sticky but this just means you have to be quick or perhaps use a water spray to apply localised cooling. (I was just qucik).

When the engine is running the water levels jump about quite a lot but when you start adjusting the carburettors you can get a very good sense of the right level. I guess if you experimented further with the size of the vacuum and the length of tube and the amount of water, you could reduce the amount of bounce.

All for the price of of 30 m of 3mm or 4mm ID (can't remember) clear plastic tubing, four 6mm brake bleed nipples and a little effort.

I achieved my best ever carb balance with this method. Arguably more accurate than four pressure gauges.


« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 01:50:22 am by awrawr »

Offline Bru-tom

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 517
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2018, 02:29:18 am »
I made my own set of water manometers. THe tube length for the open ended type would be impractical for water, so i bunged up one end, taking care to ensure all four were bunged up with an equal level of water (dyed blue for better visibility). This is easily achieved  by fixing  the 4 lengths of plastic tube to a plank  and  filling them with blue water and then adjusting their relative heights until all the levels are the same and then chopping off the tops at an equal height and bunging the open ends up to make an airtight seal using a suitable size screw with some silicone sealant . The gap between the top of the water and the sealed end forms a partial vacuum called the torricelli vacuum (google it) when you apply suction to the open end ( for example when you connect a running engine). Volume of the trapped air in all four tubes has to be the same for the water levels to respond identically to changes in vacuum from the engine.

Provided you calibrate them so that all the water levels are equal AND they all have the same volume of air trapped in the blind sealed end AND there is sufficient vacuum to prevent the suction from the engine drawing the water through into the combustion chambers, you will have four equally accurate manometers capable of balancing your carburettors very nicely.

I connected the open end of the plastic tube to the inlet pilot holes using 6mm brake nipples cut down so they didn't interfere with the air flow inside the air inlet stubs. As the engine warms up the plastic tube did tend to get a bit sticky but this just means you have to be quick or perhaps use a water spray to apply localised cooling. (I was just qucik).

When the engine is running the water levels jump about quite a lot but when you start adjusting the carburettors you can get a very good sense of the right level. I guess if you experimented further with the size of the vacuum and the length of tube and the amount of water, you could reduce the amount of bounce.

All for the price of of 30 m of 3mm or 4mm ID (can't remember) clear plastic tubing, four 6mm brake bleed nipples and a little effort.

I achieved my best ever carb balance with this method. Arguably more accurate than four pressure gauges.

this is exactly how i built mine.

May i suggest using a higher viscosity fluid such as 2 stroke oil or atf. the water "bounces around" a lot less than water would in the tubes. Plus if any gets sucked up quickly due to a large imbalance, at least the 2 stroke oil is combustible unlike the water.

Also, i added vacuum restrictions in the pipes just before they meet the intake "nipples", this added an extra reduction in vacuum so as to not allow the levels to fluctuate so much. call it a buffer of sorts. i used small .22mm empty cartridges with 1mm holes i drilled into them, they are a nice tight squeeze into the pipes. you could use anything that will essentially block the end of the pipe that will allow you to drill through, and allow a "regulated" amount of air through at a time... This helped me out a lot and made the Manometer a lot more user friendly.

Offline awrawr

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 36
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2018, 03:00:29 am »
Good idea. I will try oil next time I do this.

Offline ekpent

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,050
  • To many bikes-but lookin' for more
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2018, 06:24:08 am »
 Morgan time ;)   https://www.carbtune.com/

Offline DaveBarbier

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,446
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2018, 06:31:54 am »
I hope you were careful with the spilled Hg. That stuff is highly toxic

Only toxic to vertebrates. Maybe invertebrates too...

Offline 70CB750

  • Labor omnia vincit improbus.
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,153
  • Northern Virginia
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2018, 08:25:04 am »
I got one of those somewhere too.   The sync tool I made from Surplus center manometers works well, but maybe the old Motion Pro deserves to be revived.

Offline carnivorous chicken

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 795
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2018, 09:40:46 am »
Morgan time ;)   https://www.carbtune.com/

I'll second this -- I left my mercury sync tool in Boston and picked up a Morgan.

Offline Deltarider

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,308
  • "Tremendous progress has been made... "
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2018, 09:53:53 am »
Morgan time ;)   https://www.carbtune.com/

I'll second this -- I left my mercury sync tool in Boston and picked up a Morgan.
Yeah, we know, we know but we admire much more the people that create something using their brain and hands. Although I share a professional EFKA synchronisation set (that I haven't used in years btw) I still like to build a DIY set and make it perfect, just for the fun of it. Beats buying.
Money is like manure. It's not worth a thing unless it's spread around.

Offline carnivorous chicken

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 795
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2018, 10:49:45 am »
Yeah, we know, we know but we admire much more the people that create something using their brain and hands. Although I share a professional EFKA synchronisation set (that I haven't used in years btw) I still like to build a DIY set and make it perfect, just for the fun of it. Beats buying.

I have bikes in different places and one of the advantages of the morgan is its portability. But of course, to each his/her own.

Offline awrawr

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 36
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2018, 02:49:40 pm »
Morgan time ;)   https://www.carbtune.com/

Don't know if they were available in 1988?

Offline pjlogue

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 418
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2018, 05:30:01 pm »
For the cost of Hg you could get a Morgan and have $ left over.

-P.

Offline PeWe

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,778
  • Bike almost back to the 70's 2015
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2018, 10:45:27 pm »
I got mercury in my teeth until people started to think its toxic and forbid it.
What about a new synch tool? Like Morgan carbtune.
CB750 K6-76 1005cc JMR Billet block.
CB750 K2-75 stock looking project started 2017

Offline Deltarider

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,308
  • "Tremendous progress has been made... "
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2018, 02:19:15 am »
What about a new synch tool?
In the early 80s, I bought, with a friend. a 4 gauge vacuum set. Years later the friend went the single cylinder route - he is a good mechanic btw - and had no need for it anymore. I now share the set with another friend, a mechanic in the yachting world. If I had known in the 80s what I know now, I would have been less impressed by the gauges and would have built the tool myself.
Like Morgan carbtune.
Looking at the design, I find the Morgan heavily overpriced and I suspect a patent that blocks competition. For a professional workshop the expense matters less than for a single individual that doesn't own a fleet of bikes. The more so if your bike doesn't need synchronisation in tens of thousands of miles as is my experience. Except for the 4 cable operated carbs that were on the first CB750s, all SOHC Fours have the carb lay out designed thus, that carbs rarely need syncing if at all. The mere fact that checking synchronisation is in the maintenance interval scheme, does not mean that resyncing will routinely be required! Far from it. In my experience I would immediately suspect another item like the ignition that needs to be adressed. But... how was Honda to know on forehand that the carbs would behave so well in real life?! If you can't foresee this, ofcourse you advise checking in the maintenance interval scheme. I have the feeling that owners of a vacuum set are a bit biased after they've spent money on it. What syncing does, is giving the bike a nice idle and that's it. Back then, nobody that I knew, would mess with the carbs and so you could achieve/restore that nice idle simply by doing the other servicing items. Then people began buying manuals where practically all 'repairs' imaginable are described unfiltered. Haynes in this respect has the better manual, stating that a single sync in the bike's lifetime (not abnormal!) does not outweigh the expense. From my experience, I can agree full heartedly.
Personally I like to see people creating stuff themself.* I admire ingenuity and simplicity and would like to see more of that. The main thing with building your own sync set ofcourse is, how you can prevent fluid being sucked in the cylinders and the dampening. We could make it a contest. If you think you've built a good one, show us! Description and an accompanying video ofcourse. We'll comment until we have the perfect design. BTW, I seem to remember having heard of an even simpler device that consists of transparent tube that has four exits to the carb ports and has 3 steelballs exactly fit in it at the same distance of eachother. Purpose is to keep the three balls between marked lines. Has any of you ever seen it? Did it work?
* At the moment I am trying to revive an old exhaust gas analyzer. I do not know much about electronics but I don't mind to learn. I understand its working principle now and am trying to find out if it has a defect or was a (very) bad design. If any of you has experience with this, I'm all ears.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 01:17:26 pm by Deltarider »
Money is like manure. It's not worth a thing unless it's spread around.

Offline blacksmith1

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 58
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2018, 03:16:17 am »
had a great set of factory suzuki jobs,worked a treat,air and ball bearings,maybe still get these ,back in the nineties

Offline PeWe

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,778
  • Bike almost back to the 70's 2015
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2018, 04:18:31 am »
Bench synch method worked well on my stock K6 carbs. Used a 3-5 mm drill

Ignition issue can cause bad low lift behaviour, mixed up with badly synched carbs.
I have written that several times the last months. Advancer has a play, set it in its counterclockwards position and tighten its nut. T and F will now match with case mark.
If set it to the other side of the play, ignition will be advanced. I solved a long period of bad low throttle lift behavior by retarding the ignition.
CB750 K6-76 1005cc JMR Billet block.
CB750 K2-75 stock looking project started 2017

Offline Deltarider

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,308
  • "Tremendous progress has been made... "
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2018, 05:30:20 am »
Bench synch method worked well on my stock K6 carbs. Used a 3-5 mm drill
When I had the carbrack out (so far 3 times since 1980 and - let me confess - mainly to satisfy my curiosity) I synchronised by sliding a small Allen key under the slides (engine side). You have to be concentrated and take it easy. Check and doublecheck ofcourse. When checked afterwards, carbs underpressures were well within 2 cm Hg of eachother and that's well within factory specs. Now, I could have been lucky, but three times? Next time I have them on the kitchen table however, I would like to test the ball bearings method, to see how that works. The idea appeals to me: simply brilliant*. BTW, Morgan has abandoned mercury long time ago. Does any of you have a clue what fluid they use now?
* If you can stand the dreary, lengthy vid, have a look here. Language is German but the images speak for themselves.[/size]
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 05:43:46 am by Deltarider »
Money is like manure. It's not worth a thing unless it's spread around.

Offline ekpent

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,050
  • To many bikes-but lookin' for more
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2018, 07:34:56 am »
 Morgan does not use fluid they use stainless steel sliders. Think of it as a long tube instead of a little ball. A good tool lasts a lifetime and working on a lot of different bikes I like having mine around. 750 carbs are easier to bench synch then most. When you totally break down a set of 500/550 carbs off the rack the synch adjusters have to be totally removed. Get them close and 10 minutes with the fancy easy to use tool they are done and you move on. Pretty little gadget all packed back up in its pretty case and sitting on the shelf not hurting anybody  :D

Offline PeWe

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,778
  • Bike almost back to the 70's 2015
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2018, 10:25:20 am »
Ball trick is fun. I have not seen that before. I guess it work on throttles too.
When all throttles open exactly synchronized the incoming flow should be equal...
...unless there are minor leaks passing by the throttle openings that must be compensated for, which a vacuum gauge will measure correctly.

My old K6 carbs are bench synched, they have also got new throttle shaft seals. Should be fine.  One more reason to get my thumbs out and do my K2 build.
CB750 K6-76 1005cc JMR Billet block.
CB750 K2-75 stock looking project started 2017

Offline Duke McDukiedook

  • Space Force 6 Star General
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,547
  • Wish? Did somebody say wish?
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2018, 12:45:28 pm »
Wonder if automatic trans fluid would work ??

It would work but your actual inHg would be off since that was calibrated to the specific gravity of Hg like Maui said. If all you are looking to do is just balance your carbs then it should work fine. If you are looking to measure the actual vacuum pressure it would be wildly off if you used ATF.
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen. The gods will not save you." Ervin Burrell

CB750 K3 crat | (2) 1986 VFR750F

Offline pjlogue

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 418
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2018, 01:26:29 pm »
If you made a set of manometers using ATF you would need a VERY long column if your pool of ATF was open to the air.  You could use a shorter column if your pool of ATF was closed off to the atmosphere and you had a small air pocket to partially form a vacuum when the carbs were pulling on the ends of the tubes so you didn't suck ATF into your carbs.  The contraption would have to always be stored upright though. 

-P.

Offline carnivorous chicken

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 795
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2018, 01:46:45 pm »
  The contraption would have to always be stored upright though. 

This was always a problem/worry/concern about my old mercury tool. And why I abandoned it in MA and got my Morgan.

Offline stou

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 97
    • Stoudesign
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2018, 08:42:48 am »
Since my bike carbs are sync, I tried it on a friend bike which need to be sync. With AFT oil, it doesn't work. The oil was going up too fast. I stoped the bike because I didn't want AFT in the carbs. Like pjlogue wrote, it probably take longer tube to work with oil.

I'll probably buy a new sync tool!
Honda CR125M1 1974
Honda CB750K7 1977
Honda TLR200 1986
Honda CRF1000L 2016
My CB750 build: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,174710.0.html

Offline tlbranth

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,454
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2018, 06:35:25 pm »
I built a set of mercury manometers back in '71 or so. Got the tubes and mercury from a science supply place no problem. Still use the same manometer. Still have a bottle of mercury left over.
1970 CB750 K0
1975 GL1000
1999 GL1500
2002 VT750-CDA ACE - Momma's bike
Terry

Offline Can550

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 452
Re: Old mercury Motion Pro carb sync tool - whitout mercury...
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2018, 06:54:24 pm »
Ss rods? Like Morgan’s sync tool ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

;