Topic: Testing ignition basics

[bryanj]

Remember the 500/550 is marginal on charging so the excess load of electrinic ignition tends to flatten the battery unless you drive like a loony

[AlekStooge]

You should still be able to buy parts for your ignition from a power arc dealer. Realistically there wasn't much that was proprietary to C5s ignition. It looks like it was just the timing plate and how the trigger wheel bolted to the crank. The actual modules, triggers, and coils were all the same. The MC-2 coils are based on Kia/Hyundai waste spark coils, BWD part number E874. You can purchase them at any parts store. (pull the coil boot off and boom, it's your coil without the board epoxied into the connector.) I have no idea if the coils are modified by powerarc though so it might not be apples to apples. I don't have a part number for a pigtail for it but I could probably get one if your local parts guy can't.

Swing that you have a 550 and ignitions from others are readily available this might be a good time to just buy one from a bigger company

Great! So it's only the circuit board that wouldn't be on the MC-2 coil? Thanks for that I'll look into it.

Today, I pulled the old coils out. I haven't plug them in yet but I did do the spark test with the plug grounded to the head. I kicked it fast and I got it to work on 2/3, which is good because last time I didn't see the spark. I've never done this and I was expecting the spark to be larger and more visable. Learned something new. I tried the same test on plug 4 and it didn't spark. I guess that confirms the coil is bad.

On a side note. When I last worked on the bike I remember the starter being able to crank. Then It didn't one day. I would only crank it for 5 seconds with ample time between cranks. It isn't actual hooked up, but I was thinking of running it through a toggle switch for the time being to make tuning easier without having to kick the bike everytime. I remember testing the starter by hooking + lead up directly to the battery and grounding - to the body of the starter. It would spark. Why does that happen? Am I supposed to ground the battery to another metal surface?

[RAFster122s]

Battery is grounded to the frame and motor grounds to frame through engine bolts. Powder coating or painting frame can cause engine to not ground to frame. So, that could cause you to have issues starting the bike and operation since the ground path is not necessarily the same point electrically speaking.

[AlekStooge]

Battery is grounded to the frame and motor grounds to frame through engine bolts. Powder coating or painting frame can cause engine to not ground to frame. So, that could cause you to have issues starting the bike and operation since the ground path is not necessarily the same point electrically speaking.

True. Although I have the starter pulled out and I just ground to one of the mounting bolts slots.

[AlekStooge]

I found a Dyna coil that would work. 4into1 has them available as a set with no wiring or plugs included. I don't know if I should replace just that one or just do both and not think about it again in the future.

https://www.dimecitycycles.com/dyna-dual-output-5-0-ohm-coils-1-dc8-1.html

Yes, the module controls the signal that makes the coil produce the spark, same as points do, and yes, the C5/power arc did not live up to the claims. Paul joined the forums to sell the ignitions, and hasn't been active since '15. Just try swapping the one coil for now, using jumpers, and see if the module will fire it. Personally, I wouldn't waste my time with a power arc for many reasons, such as the loss of timing marks.

Before I commit to the Dynas. I want to stop by the auto parts store to see if they would have the coil based on the part number given E874 by Nicklopic. I want to rephrase my question what triggers the multi-spark specifically? Is the circuit board that my trigger and power wires attach to? By replacing the coils with Dynas my ignition system will no longer be a multi-spark?

[scottly]

Did you try temporarily using a stock coil yet? Did you have spark where you had none before? Once again, the C5/power arc is an unreliable piece of #$%*, to be blunt, and they are going to a different design. I wouldn't waste any more time on it. Got the stock points ignition?

[AlekStooge]

I haven't. I'll try is out right now. The E784 part number at the auto parts store came out to be a single tower coil and different shape.

I have the points. I don't plan on running those. It appears that I have a working module so I don't want to spend money on replacing it, at least at this time. But I'll keep that in mind. The C5 was recommended to me by Cal. Seems like there is mixed opinion about them here.

I think I'm going to go ahead a replace both coils with the Dynas and later if I want and have more money I'll get the module, Dyna S I believe it's called. For knowledge and curiosity, could you answer my question about the circuit board. Is that what initiates the multi-spark and is it possible to run with other coils, not necessarily that I plan on doing that. Much appreciated!

[scottly]

I don't know what you mean by "circuit board". The thing mounted on the side of the motor where the points plate used to be is what controls the spark. Supposedly, only the power arc coils would work properly.
Install the points and stock coils, at least for now, and see how the bike runs.

[Nicklopic]

The part number is e874, not 784. And the Kia coil is the MC-2 powerarc coil without the board and the coil boot pulled off. I've literally had the part in my hand at work. You might have an older coil because they did change them. The multi spark is a trigger from the module, not the coil itself.
Like I've mentioned I really have no idea if the powerarc coils are actually any different than the Kia ones but I can tell you for sure that the physical body of the coil is identical. As for the board, it appears all the board does is give you ring connectors for instead.of a standard pigtail plug. I never saw anything but I never cut them open either
Also powerarc website states the coil has no current draw when not in use, hence why it's able to be hardware's to the battery, would that mean that it would have an open circuit when testing resistance?

[Nicklopic]

Oh yeah, screenshots

[scottly]

Nick, what is the primary resistance  of your Kia coil? It's a moot point because the C5/power arc is a piece of CRAP and should be thrown down the nearest mine shaft, or lake or sewer. The manufacturer gave up on the design, and so should Alek.

[Nicklopic]

Absolutely no clue, but I can find out tomorrow if you'd like

[AlekStooge]

I don't know what you mean by "circuit board". The thing mounted on the side of the motor where the points plate used to be is what controls the spark. Supposedly, only the power arc coils would work properly.
Install the points and stock coils, at least for now, and see how the bike runs.

Isn't this a circuit board? I figured since the coils or the module were not made by C5 this board is what made it signal a multi spark and made their ignitions unique Nicklopic just answered that 

I did as you said and I got spark on plug 4 with the old coils but barely, it took a lot of kicking and sweat. The problem with installing the old coils is I don't have enough bullet terminals for the way I got things wired. Kinda silly but I'd have to order more Male connections from Vintage connections Haha. Plus if you've seen my project thread, my cam is a regrind and I had to degree to install it and set timing so I'd have to do that all over with points.

I do have a older coil. I bought it off Gino from here. E874 is the part number I have them and this what they came back with.


This is my coil.

[AlekStooge]

Nick, what is the primary resistance  of your Kia coil? It's a moot point because the C5/power arc is a piece of CRAP and should be thrown down the nearest mine shaft, or lake or sewer. The manufacturer gave up on the design, and so should Alek.

Sunken cost fallacy. At the time being we can confirm the module works since I'm getting spark and we can confirm coil for 1/4 is no good from the ohm measurement and the dynamic test. I think I just need a coil or might as well get both and then upgrade the module when the time comes. Would you agree?

[Nicklopic]

Yeah that's definitely an older coil
 I got the MC-2s with my C5 kit so everything I have stated is based on my experience with mine. But looking that most of their coils, I think they use modified automotive coils for most applications and I'd assume it would be the se for older things but who knows

[scottly]

That "circuit" board looks like a coil to me? Paul bragged about their specially wound coils, but never gave any specs.

[AlekStooge]

Yeah that's definitely an older coil
 I got the MC-2s with my C5 kit so everything I have stated is based on my experience with mine. But looking that most of their coils, I think they use modified automotive coils for most applications and I'd assume it would be the se for older things but who knows

I'm not sure what you seen but I had the coil in hand and the other was a single tower and had pins for a latching housing. When did you get your C5?

[AlekStooge]

That "circuit" board looks like a coil to me? Paul bragged about their specially wound coils, but never gave any specs.

Well, I just assumed it was some kinda circuit board. I don't see it any other coils.

[Nicklopic]

September/October of 2018 is when I got it

[AlekStooge]

I bought the Dyna coils only. The module is sold separately. I was looking at the description. Here is excerpt, "original spark advancer, so the factory advance curve is maintained".

How does this affect setting timing with a regrind cam?

[Nicklopic]

cam timing and ignition timing are 2 separate things. If youre degreeing your cam, do that then worry about ignition timing to get it to make power. Itll be fine with the stock curve more than likely but you wont know till its running.

[AlekStooge]

cam timing and ignition timing are 2 separate things. If youre degreeing your cam, do that then worry about ignition timing to get it to make power. Itll be fine with the stock curve more than likely but you wont know till its running.

Is the timing set with this unit like any other ignition? Ok, I think I see what that means it's reffering to a factory pre-set unchangeable curve.

[Nicklopic]

"No"
You can rotate the plate and advance and retard the timing but the correct way to do it is purchase the adapter/cable to plug into the module and edit the timing curves on a computer with their software

[AlekStooge]

Ok, good. Since I'm waiting for the coils. I have a question about the stator wires. I saw the three yellow wires broke, I must have put the alternator cover on over them by accident. What does each one of those 5 wires (total) do?

[dazemc]

Ok, good. Since I'm waiting for the coils. I have a question about the stator wires. I saw the three yellow wires broke, I must have put the alternator cover on over them by accident. What does each one of those 5 wires (total) do?

Those are your 3 phases of A/C current. They connect to your RR and get converted to DC and the voltage is set or "regulated" there as well. The other two wires are ground and voltage sense

I found this in the forums but can't remember where,

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http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/5ef4098e22972/SB3PhaseCharging%20%281%29.pdf