Topic: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - it made it!

[HondaMan]

Helicoil done.
The last item (except for the incoming new 17T sprocket, more in a minute...) was to select 'what to do' with the shift lever. Someone cut off the original shifter arm and welded on an industrial-strength curved arm with a fully-serrated toe lever - which would ruin my boot in 5 shifts! I'm sure the owner was struggling with the hard-shift issues of the sandcasts (due to the too-little clutch oiling issues of all the K0 bikes) and his approach became to gorilla-shift it. I'll check with the owner to see which shifter he'd rather have installed.

Next: set up the oil tank and see if it will prime and oil the top end.

[HondaMan]

Had to get  a 'skinny' sprocket: I forgot that the sandcast final-drive shaft will not accept the shouldered sprockets. That happened just as the K1 was coming out: the shaft got 6mm longer and the cavity around it was widened (and an extra 6mm bolt added to the area) to make room for the chain, any looseness, and some extra support to seal the area better with the case flexing that happens under hard acceleration here. It also made it impossible to install the 'quick fix' chain guard that was the first attempt by the engineers to make the broken drive chains go somewhere other than into the cases. These guards only fit the K0 as a drop-in, and the front rubber bumper of the guard had to be ground off to fit into a sandcast at this site.

But, the 17T sprocket fits nicely, so that gizmo isn't needed. Besides, no one wants to sell you a 16T front sprocket for a 750: try the online vendors and you'll see! Only CMSNL offers it for posterity, but you have to call them to actually get one for historic sake: I couldn't order one because it kept killing the "order" button when I tried it. If a Diamond XD/XDL chain were used with the 16T front today it wouldn't be such a problem like it was in 1969. But, that's a story I've told here elsewhere and in my book...

I installed the new countershaft bolt that I made 1.5 more threads on than the OEM version so it will mostly plug the oiling hole on the final-drive shaft. That, plus no oiling pan inside, should cut way down on the excessive oil slinging these were known for.

I've added a picture here of the expensively-made chain guide that Honda made for their first 'fix' attempt for the 16T sprocket. The rubber guards on the front and the top inside are still securely bonded today, and the front one would have to be thinned by half to fit into the sandcast, but would drop into the K0. I know this actually worked at least once: my fellow mechanic Jim with his sandcast was out riding the "river road" one day with another 750K0 that he had already installed this guard in some time before, in 1970, when the other bike suddenly laid its chain out on the road, right in front of Jim! That's how it was supposed to save the cases, and it did that day.

[HondaMan]

Now toward the oil-up test: here's the test stand, installed. Tomorrow will be oil-up day.

[RAFster122s]

Good luck on oil day, no geysers like you struck oil allowed...

[CycleRanger]

Boy, prices for that "case protector" part have really gone up.
I'm surprised someone hasn't started repopping them.
I got one probably about ten years ago and didn't pay near the price today.
Then I never got around to installing it, which I guess is a good thing because I didn't know it would only fit with a 16 tooth sprocket.

[HondaMan]

Boy, prices for that "case protector" part have really gone up.
I'm surprised someone hasn't started repopping them.
I got one probably about ten years ago and didn't pay near the price today.
Then I never got around to installing it, which I guess is a good thing because I didn't know it would only fit with a 16 tooth sprocket.

If you got one of the later versions (like 1990s onward) they usually came without the rubber stuff and were sized for a 17T sprocket. I even saw a claim that it would fit an 18T, but I remember thinking at the time that was a total waste of time and money. But then, I've also seen K7 engines with a chain in the tranny, so maybe not? 

[newday777]

I think I remember trying to fit the chain guard back in the 70s on a later K1-K4???

[HondaMan]

I think I remember trying to fit the chain guard back in the 70s on a later K1-K4???

I likewise remember someone selling one that would fit those bikes. It was real thick steel, no rubber, and had the front tab as a dog-leg shape in a different location to fit the 3-bolt arrangement of of the later engine cases. The ad mentioned "racing applications", I'm thinking dragstrip?

[PeWe]

Geyser better than no oil, pump blocked by air.
A nightmAir.

Good assembly lube that can withstand a longer lack of oil session without making clutch slippery.

I have seen Lucas oil assembly lube, more tacky that will stay in place. I think it was green.
I have Red line in bottle, liquid.

[newday777]

I think I remember trying to fit the chain guard back in the 70s on a later K1-K4???

I likewise remember someone selling one that would fit those bikes. It was real thick steel, no rubber, and had the front tab as a dog-leg shape in a different location to fit the 3-bolt arrangement of of the later engine cases. The ad mentioned "racing applications", I'm thinking dragstrip?

Yes that jogs the synops to get the files out of the dust bin

[Don R]

 I have a 76A engine that has a chain catcher that's made the opposite way, on edge to meet a loose chain at the center of the rollers and feed it through that way. It didn't fit a k case at all.

[CycleRanger]

Boy, prices for that "case protector" part have really gone up.
I'm surprised someone hasn't started repopping them.
I got one probably about ten years ago and didn't pay near the price today.
Then I never got around to installing it, which I guess is a good thing because I didn't know it would only fit with a 16 tooth sprocket.

If you got one of the later versions (like 1990s onward) they usually came without the rubber stuff and were sized for a 17T sprocket. I even saw a claim that it would fit an 18T, but I remember thinking at the time that was a total waste of time and money. But then, I've also seen K7 engines with a chain in the tranny, so maybe not? 

So you mentioned there were different versions of the part so I started wondering.
After much searching out in the shop I found it on the shelf in an unmarked box. ( Now labeled!)
Actually, I found them. I didn't remember that I had two!
Looks like these are the real deal, rubber and all.
I also found a bunch of points plates and gauges I forgot about.
Reminds that I really should inventory stuff some day.

[HondaMan]

Geyser better than no oil, pump blocked by air.
A nightmAir.

Good assembly lube that can withstand a longer lack of oil session without making clutch slippery.

I have seen Lucas oil assembly lube, more tacky that will stay in place. I think it was green.
I have Red line in bottle, liquid.

That's a good idea! I'm getting some oil pumps to rebuild, maybe I'll do them during the winter and use that goop to keep them primed.

[HondaMan]

Boy, prices for that "case protector" part have really gone up.
I'm surprised someone hasn't started repopping them.
I got one probably about ten years ago and didn't pay near the price today.
Then I never got around to installing it, which I guess is a good thing because I didn't know it would only fit with a 16 tooth sprocket.

If you got one of the later versions (like 1990s onward) they usually came without the rubber stuff and were sized for a 17T sprocket. I even saw a claim that it would fit an 18T, but I remember thinking at the time that was a total waste of time and money. But then, I've also seen K7 engines with a chain in the tranny, so maybe not? 

So you mentioned there were different versions of the part so I started wondering.
After much searching out in the shop I found it on the shelf in an unmarked box. ( Now labeled!)
Actually, I found them. I didn't remember that I had two!
Looks like these are the real deal, rubber and all.
I also found a bunch of points plates and gauges I forgot about.
Reminds that I really should inventory stuff some day.

Those look much fancier than the ones I remember. Those have the rubber on both the front and under the top, with a dog-leg mount for the outer 6mm bolt. Are they Honda parts?

[HondaMan]

I have a 76A engine that has a chain catcher that's made the opposite way, on edge to meet a loose chain at the center of the rollers and feed it through that way. It didn't fit a k case at all.

Picture, maybe? I don't remember seeing one like that, but if it holds the rollers down to the sprocket teeth, it would make sense.
What always caused the problem was the "climb" of rollers from both a too-loose chain and a kinked link, This would increase the diameter of the effective 'sprocket' and carve right thru the case, in a flash.

[CycleRanger]

Those look much fancier than the ones I remember. Those have the rubber on both the front and under the top, with a dog-leg mount for the outer 6mm bolt. Are they Honda parts?

They're just like the one in your photo. Rubber on the front and back.
They are Honda PN 11353-300-010
Apparently there is also a PN 11353-300-030.
Looking around some more it looks like Yamiya is repopping these without the rubber for ~$60.
Looks like they used the 030 version as a template.

[PeWe]

Geyser better than no oil, pump blocked by air.
A nightmAir.

Good assembly lube that can withstand a longer lack of oil session without making clutch slippery.

I have seen Lucas oil assembly lube, more tacky that will stay in place. I think it was green.
I have Red line in bottle, liquid.

That's a good idea! I'm getting some oil pumps to rebuild, maybe I'll do them during the winter and use that goop to keep them primed.

For the crank bearings and cam....

[HondaMan]

Geyser better than no oil, pump blocked by air.
A nightmAir.

Good assembly lube that can withstand a longer lack of oil session without making clutch slippery.

I have seen Lucas oil assembly lube, more tacky that will stay in place. I think it was green.
I have Red line in bottle, liquid.

That's a good idea! I'm getting some oil pumps to rebuild, maybe I'll do them during the winter and use that goop to keep them primed.

For the crank bearings and cam....

I'm thinking of using a product called STP, which is an oil additive that is thick like the Lucas. It has been around since the 1960s here in the USA and much resemble the Lucas. It is nasty for clutches, making them slip in about 10 minutes, but holds the 'body' of oil when it is hot and clings to bearings because of their porosity. A dab should be enough for this seal and rotors, and it won't be enough to cause clutch issues later on.

[HondaMan]

Well, $#%@!
I got it all set up tonight, then discovered my cranking battery is dead. DEAD! It was charged fully 3 weeks ago. It's a car battery from 2016 that was used in a car for a week, then became my garage utility battery, used for all sorts of projects and usually left with  trickle charger on it for 2-3 days per month if not used. Used it just 2 weeks ago for a few minutes to light a lightbulb. This kind of 'drop' in voltage (to 11.4 volts by itself) indicates the plates are sulphating inside it, which could only happen under these circumstances if the plates were made from used, impure lead.

Take note: it is the Super Start brand battery from O'Reilly's Auto Parts.

...made in China... 

[RAFster122s]

There sometimes is a reason for delays like these Mark, look for the silver lining, or try to make one out of it….

Been having tons of back issues lately, pain specialist cannot do anything for me. Seems physical therapy is just making things worse…
So, I can relate to things going wrong. In less than a month I have a 1900mile 3 day road trip to make…I hope I can do it. Probably will be asking my doctor for a toradol shots and course of steroids to make the trip…

[Kelly E]

There sometimes is a reason for delays like these Mark, look for the silver lining, or try to make one out of it….

Been having tons of back issues lately, pain specialist cannot do anything for me. Seems physical therapy is just making things worse…
So, I can relate to things going wrong. In less than a month I have a 1900mile 3 day road trip to make…I hope I can do it. Probably will be asking my doctor for a toradol shots and course of steroids to make the trip…

I have 4 crushed vertebrae. On long rides I use a back brace like the warehouse guys use. It really helps a lot so at the end of the day I don't feel like my back was used for a pile driver.

[Don R]

Good assembly lube that can withstand a longer lack of oil session without making clutch slippery.

I have seen Lucas oil assembly lube, more tacky that will stay in place. I think it was green.
I have Red line in bottle, liquid.
[/quote]

That's a good idea! I'm getting some oil pumps to rebuild, maybe I'll do them during the winter and use that goop to keep them primed.
[/quote]For the crank bearings and cam....
[/quote]

I'm thinking of using a product called STP, which is an oil additive that is thick like the Lucas. It has been around since the 1960s here in the USA and much resemble the Lucas. It is nasty for clutches, making them slip in about 10 minutes, but holds the 'body' of oil when it is hot and clings to bearings because of their porosity. A dab should be enough for this seal and rotors, and it won't be enough to cause clutch issues later on.
[/quote]

 Before there was assembly lube, we always used a mix of STP and 30 wt. Valvoline. I'm a fan of Lucas assembly lube especially on cam components. I did learn the hard way, not to use it on racing roller lifters with high pressure springs, it can cause the roller to skid rather than roll. That causes a rub spot that then eats the roller and cam. ---$$$  Whodathunkit? That lifter screech will give you chills and make your checkbook shrink.

[CycleRanger]

That lifter screech will give you chills and make your checkbook shrink.

 
I'm using Permatex Ultra Slick assembly lube on the CB350K engine I'm currently working on.
It seems a little less viscous than STP but very sticky.

[HondaMan]

It's alive!
...so to speak, as I don't have the carbs for it...
It oiled up after sitting with oil in the tank, but with no oil filter housing on it (because I forgot to paint it, had to do that these last 2 days). What I noticed that was a good sign: there was a slight dribble of oil coming out of the lower port in front of the engine, the one that feeds the oil filter from the pump. It's been sitting 3 days with oil in the tank while I found a new battery for the garage, and had to charge that up last night.

I might mention this aside re: lead-acid batteries: when you get a new lead-acid (this includes AGM types) battery it has a 'factory charge' on it, which was a dry charge applied before acid was added to the cells. This lets the battery be safely shipped as it cannot discharge much of this power if the terminals are shorted, thus reducing fire hazards. But, when acid is added this charge drops to about 60%-70% of the battery's full capacity, enough to start whatever vehicle it will power. BUT...if the owner does not first charge the battery to 100% while wet BEFORE the first heavy discharge (like starting an engine) it creates a chemical limit that prevents the battery from being able to store 100% of its total capacity. Over time, this limits the battery's life, too (which is probably what happened to my last one, as I didn't get it new myself) because the lead decays from the first discharge point to end-of-life, and the first large discharge determines this lifetime. So, when you get a brand-new battery, charge it until it climbs out of the normal range-of-voltage (which would be typically more than 13.6 volts in these bike-sized batteries, when it will quickly then climb to 15 volts) and you'll be rewarded with a longer life.
NiCd and lithium batteries are a little different, and those can suffer from overcharging, which similarly limits their lifetimes and full capacities.
...a little something I learned during my NASA spacecraft training regarding batteries, of all types...

I'm supposed to get the new/old/junky valve cover this week, so I'll cut away the top of it to show the oil feeding to the rockers. Then I'll take some more pix and attempt a video to post here. Has been a long slog, but it's finally done and makes a running sandcast possible! Very cool. 

[newday777]

👏 👏👏!!!