Topic: On American Decency

[TwoTired]

 Must be an American thing

I think the whiners are simply more boisterous than the content or tolerant.

I thought what you posted was rather interesting and a refreshing change from the normal "hate anything Americana".

I doubt I ever would have seen it without your efforts.  Thanks!

Cheers,

[edbikerii]

The US gets hammered on even a Motorcycle forum and for what?

  I dunno, but thanks for that observation CBGBs.  The tone of the replies, which are mostly from your countymen, are surprising and amusing.  I expected (innocently and maybe naively)  only a few responses -   'well, of course', ' brown-nosing won't get you anywhere', and 'thanks for noticing'.  Pretty well none of those.  The hammering was amongst yourselves.   Must be an American thing

I suspect many were being humble about the praise.  I found your post refreshing, and appreciate the perspective check for the constant dissenters.  Too bad they aren't listening (and never will).

[CBGBs]

I had been thinking about this post and the replies while I wrenched on my 400f, and I was thinking about Upperlakes good will and the will of those whose critical of the post. I thought you might be a little suprised at the response. Unfortunately, I'm not. 

[Uncle Ernie]

Dissenters do so because they care.  They, you, we live in a country where that's allowed.  Conservatives dissent/protest also, BTW.   
I'm not sure of the exact numbers, but I think less then half the population votes.  It's the ones
who don't care at all     everyone should be worried about.

[TwoTired]

Dissenters do so because they care. 

Oh, if only that were universally true.
While it is true for many.
Far too many dissent:
- to be noticed
- to be liked
- to be accepted by a social faction.
- to get next to a sexual partner
- to be empowered by a political faction
- to cause hate and discontent
- to effect control over someone else's life, manipulate.
- many many more ulterior motives.

 human nature, human psychology hasn't changed in thousands of years.  Altruism isn't the norm in most cultures, unfortunately.

Cheers,

[andy750]

Im not quite sure who you are referring to in the "dissenters" camp but I had a problem with the original post not because of its meaning but because it was factually incorrect. If you feel the need to be told false information because it makes you feel better, then go on believing it. This is an international forum and there are many viewpoints on offer (in the Open forum) and accurate information in posts related to those opinions should be the ideal. There is nothing anti-American about that  .

cheers
Andy

[Uncle Ernie]

As a dissenter against some of the things that have become status quo, I would point out that many Republicans would have you believe that insistance on accurate information is, indeed, un-American.

Two-Tired,  I need to think about that one.  Interesting point, yet I wonder if that isn't true for all sides...  A point worth pondering.

[edbikerii]

As a dissenter against some of the things that have become status quo, I would point out that many Republicans would have you believe that insistance on accurate information is, indeed, un-American.

Two-Tired,  I need to think about that one.  Interesting point, yet I wonder if that isn't true for all sides...  A point worth pondering.

Nice Ernie.  Now you've officially degenerated this thread into "neener neener neener, you're a big fat liar" status.  There's nothing to be gained by arguing against that.

[eldar]

I think it is pretty funny.  All I can say is that I like my country but I believe it is going the wrong way on many things. So I have tried to use the ballot box but there are too many out there who believe what our govt tells them. Oh well, I will still do what I can and I think that is what being an american is all about.

[Uncle Ernie]

As  result of a patient PM, allow me to clarify the above post;
Both prevalent parties, in my eyes, seem to pick and choose the "facts" they desire to believe, or ignore.  I think that would be self-evident?

That said, I strongly believe that continuing dialogue is of utmost importance if anything is ever to get accomplished in this country, or even among family and friends.  Name-calling and labeling alienates, angers, marginalizes, and dismisses the recipient of the perjorative.  Beating someone over the head may quiet them temporarily, but that won't change their attitude or perspective.

On a personal note, I have no idea how people see me.  If anyone would like to give me feed back on anything at all, I'm open.  I now suspect I may have PO'd some people, and I'd rather hear about it than not.

[Jv550]

I don't know about others who have dissented in their lives, but as for me, it's never made me any more popular, nor has it ever helped me get next to a sexual partner. I'm sure the revolutionaries who founded this country had their own "ulterior motives," yet I'm glad they dissented against England and set up this incredible country of ours. I don't think they were all just trying to get laid either, although Benjamin Frankiln did pretty well in France from what I hear...

I think Americans are by and large decent people. (I think most people are decent if given the chance to be.) But we are blinded and separated by what I call "The Spectacle" - that never-ending media / advertising / government / corporate propagandizing that passes for entertainment and discourse in this country. We're overloaded with information so we choose which side to be on based not on objective reasoning but on the personality or cultural ties of the messenger. It's gotten so bad we can't agree on what a fact is anymore, much less whether a fact in question is correct or not.

Democracies don't work without discourse, and discourse always invokes dissent. If Americans ever stop arguing about politics, we'll know the republic's been lost.

[BobbyR]

I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a monied aristocracy that has set the government at defiance. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people to whom it properly belongs.

Thomas Jefferson

[canyon750]

we are blinded and separated by what I call "The Spectacle" - that never-ending media / advertising / government / corporate propagandizing that passes for entertainment and discourse in this country. We're overloaded with information so we choose which side to be on based not on objective reasoning but on the personality or cultural ties of the messenger. It's gotten so bad we can't agree on what a fact is anymore, much less whether a fact in question is correct or not.

Right on target Jv550!  People seem to believe whatever they hear on TV if its pushed in their face enough.  The majority of people don't have the time to research  and figure things out for themselves.  Half of the people wouldn't even know how to start!     After the republican govt completely gutted the education system in this country its a wonder anyone knows anything anymore.  The grand Republican plan: cut funding from education and affect tuition rates to rise to levels where only the rich can afford to go on to higher education.  $$ = education = power.  Everyone left who can't afford higher education will be too ignorant to understand what the govt is doing so whatever the news pushes will be accepted as "fact".  "Mission Accomplished!"   

[edbikerii]

As  result of a patient PM, allow me to clarify the above post;
Both prevalent parties, in my eyes, seem to pick and choose the "facts" they desire to believe, or ignore.  I think that would be self-evident?

That said, I strongly believe that continuing dialogue is of utmost importance if anything is ever to get accomplished in this country, or even among family and friends.  Name-calling and labeling alienates, angers, marginalizes, and dismisses the recipient of the perjorative.  Beating someone over the head may quiet them temporarily, but that won't change their attitude or perspective.

On a personal note, I have no idea how people see me.  If anyone would like to give me feed back on anything at all, I'm open.  I now suspect I may have PO'd some people, and I'd rather hear about it than not.

Dude, don't sweat it.  We've all had these political discussions for our entire adult lives, sometimes even over a pint of Guinness, where things can really get heated.

[edbikerii]

we are blinded and separated by what I call "The Spectacle" - that never-ending media / advertising / government / corporate propagandizing that passes for entertainment and discourse in this country. We're overloaded with information so we choose which side to be on based not on objective reasoning but on the personality or cultural ties of the messenger. It's gotten so bad we can't agree on what a fact is anymore, much less whether a fact in question is correct or not.

Right on target Jv550!  People seem to believe whatever they hear on TV if its pushed in their face enough.  The majority of people don't have the time to research  and figure things out for themselves.  Half of the people wouldn't even know how to start!     After the republican govt completely gutted the education system in this country its a wonder anyone knows anything anymore.  The grand Republican plan: cut funding from education and affect tuition rates to rise to levels where only the rich can afford to go on to higher education.  $$ = education = power.  Everyone left who can't afford higher education will be too ignorant to understand what the govt is doing so whatever the news pushes will be accepted as "fact".  "Mission Accomplished!"   

As a person who graduated from a public college in NYC, I strongly disagree with your statements, Canyon.  Tuition rates are pathetically low, and nobody is being denied access to education, unless they cannot even managed to maintain 2.0 GPAs.  In which case, they are undeserving of my tax money to "educate" them.  Time and time again, the same "constant dissenters" were going on ridiculous protests against miniscule tuition hikes in order to avoid attending classes.  Most of those recipients were on welfare and weren't paying for their own tuition anyway.  I'm not making sweeping assumptions about these people, either.  I was there.  I saw it every day.  I had to deal with the constant complaining, while I was working full-time during the day and trying to advance myself at night, paying my own way.

I agree with Canyon and JV550 that the majority of people don't have time (or interest) to research each and every issue or candidate, and are then influenced by the media excessively.  I think that is an excellent reason NOT TO VOTE, unless you are actually informed, rather than relying on the propaganda.  However, many feel that we should "rock the vote", whether informed or not.  I guess if you think the media will help you, then you want to get the uninformed, uneducated, media slaves out there voting en masse.  There was a reason our American founding fathers created literacy requirements for voting.  As it turns out, people who can't read really don't know what the heck is going on, do they?

[Jv550]

After the republican govt completely gutted the education system in this country its a wonder anyone knows anything anymore.  The grand Republican plan: cut funding from education and affect tuition rates to rise to levels where only the rich can afford to go on to higher education.  $$ = education = power.  Everyone left who can't afford higher education will be too ignorant to understand what the govt is doing so whatever the news pushes will be accepted as "fact".  "Mission Accomplished!"  

And if you're a poor or middle class kid from an area with few jobs, one of the only avenues to college or learning a trade becomes the military. Now I'm not knocking the military and I have much respect for those who choose to serve, but for many young people it's not much of a choice if the only way to better yourself involves risking your life for a government that, IMO, is far too willing to sacrifice our soldiers for questionable motives.

I would like to see a system of mandatory service for 18-24 year olds that allows for a choice between the military and some domestic service org like Job Corps or Dept. of Forestry or even something like the Peace Corps. It would expose people of different backgrounds to each other like the army does, teach them job skills and make sure everyone does something to better their country rather than just coasting on the efforts of previous generations. It might even keep some kids out of jail - I know I'd have benefitted from something like that when I was younger.

Ed, You're right in that there are herds of young people out there that seem to do nothing but protest. They annoy me too. I think though, that the restrictions on voting that were in place at the founding of our country were at best misguided in that they were set up to keep blacks, women and landless whites from expressing their opinions at the ballot box. But then democracy's always a work in progress...

[edbikerii]

After the republican govt completely gutted the education system in this country its a wonder anyone knows anything anymore.  The grand Republican plan: cut funding from education and affect tuition rates to rise to levels where only the rich can afford to go on to higher education.  $$ = education = power.  Everyone left who can't afford higher education will be too ignorant to understand what the govt is doing so whatever the news pushes will be accepted as "fact".  "Mission Accomplished!"  

And if you're a poor or middle class kid from an area with few jobs, one of the only avenues to college or learning a trade becomes the military. Now I'm not knocking the military and I have much respect for those who choose to serve, but for many young people it's not much of a choice if the only way to better yourself involves risking your life for a government that, IMO, is far too willing to sacrifice our soldiers for questionable motives.

I would like to see a system of mandatory service for 18-24 year olds that allows for a choice between the military and some domestic service org like Job Corps or Dept. of Forestry or even something like the Peace Corps. It would expose people of different backgrounds to each other like the army does, teach them job skills and make sure everyone does something to better their country rather than just coasting on the efforts of previous generations. It might even keep some kids out of jail - I know I'd have benefitted from something like that when I was younger.

Ed, You're right in that there are herds of young people out there that seem to do nothing but protest. They annoy me too. I think though, that the restrictions on voting that were in place at the founding of our country were at best misguided in that they were set up to keep blacks, women and landless whites from expressing their opinions at the ballot box. But then democracy's always a work in progress...

Frankly, I'm proud of the kids that choose to enter the military and better themselves.  To make statements implying that they had no choice is simply unfair to them.  As I said, I attended a public college, and there are THOUSANDS of them.  If you can't afford college, the government will (yes, still today, even under our republican leader) pay you to attend a public college.  If you maintain a decent GPA, they will continue to pay you to attend.  The government will even pay your room and board while you attend, and they'll GUARANTEE YOUR STUDENT LOANS if you aren't completely poor enough to qualify for welfare, too.  Don't try to tell us different, because I've been there, I've seen it first hand, and I'm sick and tired of hearing the contrary.

Now, why would any politician want to keep "blacks, women and landless whites" from voting, when they were so easy to manipulate BECAUSE THEY WERE ILLITERATE?  You can't argue both sides of the issue.  It is OBVIOUS that if you can't read a simple newspaper then you have no business playing a role in governing people.  Of course, this is now a non-issue as we do have universal literacy and free (except to tax-payers, of course) education in our country.

[Jv550]

Ed, I also went to a public college, after years of earning transfer credits at community college. I held a full-time job, took financial aid and still ended up with a huge student aid debt. The average grad holds about $20k in student loan debt and thousands more on credit cards by the time they get out. It's a stretch to say the gov't is actually paying people to go to school.

And like I said, I respect the choice of those who go into the military, but I think there ought to be more choices to serve that don't involve killing and/or dying for manufactured causes.

[edbikerii]

Ed, I also went to a public college, after years of earning transfer credits at community college. I held a full-time job, took financial aid and still ended up with a huge student aid debt. The average grad holds about $20k in student loan debt and thousands more on credit cards by the time they get out. It's a stretch to say the gov't is actually paying people to go to school.

And like I said, I respect the choice of those who go into the military, but I think there ought to be more choices to serve that don't involve killing and/or dying for manufactured causes.

Well, I also have problems with banks giving students credit cards.  I think that is ridiculous.  I know when I was 18 and in college I was a total idiot, and ran my credit cards up to the limit.  That freshman year was one hell of a party though, I'll tell ya.  Wooo hoooo!  The banks loved getting my finance charges and minimum payments until I managed to work myself out of that debt.  Do I blame the government for that?  Heck no.  I take some personal responsiblity for my own F-ups.

But really, do you think $20K for a college education (including room and board for four years, etc.) is a lot?  Besides, as I said, if you are on welfare, you don't pay one red cent, plus you get a welfare check to boot.  In fact, the state of NY WILL PAY YOU to go to college, and you even get to use the "I'm a student" excuse to remain on welfare while you attend.  I don't know where you went to school, JV, but up here in NYC they've got the welfare system figured out, baby.

Oh, and by the way, if you do actually have to pay for it yourself, do you really think that $2,000.00 per semester, full time, nys resident is a lot to pay for a college education in mid-town Manhattan?

http://www.hunter.cuny.edu/bursar/subpages/tuitionandfees_undergraduate.shtml

I paid the much higher part time rates as I worked full-time by day.

But come on, what is the real problem here?  Why is it that some people just suck it up, take some personal responsibility, and do the right thing, and then there are multitudes of whiners complaining all the time and asking for freebies?

[Roach Carver]

I want to chime in on the student loans issue as I consider myself an expert and would go so far as to say that I may have more than anyone else here. I considered every dime I spent on my education to be an investment. I borrowed every cent I needed. I had no one to pay my way for me.  Student loans are at a very low interest rate and when you look at the increase in earning potential it is money well spent.

[edbikerii]

I want to chime in on the student loans issue as I consider myself an expert and would go so far as to say that I may have more than anyone else here. I considered every dime I spent on my education to be an investment. I borrowed every cent I needed. I had no one to pay my way for me.  Student loans are at a very low interest rate and when you look at the increase in earning potential it is money well spent.

Yes, the rates are low to begin with, education is (usually) a good investment, and as long as you remain a full-time student, the federal government PAYS THE INTEREST FOR YOU.

[CBGBs]

Nothing more than an idea in the history of everything was founded on dissent. Dissent as a virtue cracks me up.

[BobbyR]

Ed, I also went to a public college, after years of earning transfer credits at community college. I held a full-time job, took financial aid and still ended up with a huge student aid debt. The average grad holds about $20k in student loan debt and thousands more on credit cards by the time they get out. It's a stretch to say the gov't is actually paying people to go to school.

And like I said, I respect the choice of those who go into the military, but I think there ought to be more choices to serve that don't involve killing and/or dying for manufactured causes.

Well, I also have problems with banks giving students credit cards.  I think that is ridiculous.  I know when I was 18 and in college I was a total idiot, and ran my credit cards up to the limit.  That freshman year was one hell of a party though, I'll tell ya.  Wooo hoooo!  The banks loved getting my finance charges and minimum payments until I managed to work myself out of that debt.  Do I blame the government for that?  Heck no.  I take some personal responsiblity for my own F-ups.

But really, do you think $20K for a college education (including room and board for four years, etc.) is a lot?  Besides, as I said, if you are on welfare, you don't pay one red cent, plus you get a welfare check to boot.  In fact, the state of NY WILL PAY YOU to go to college, and you even get to use the "I'm a student" excuse to remain on welfare while you attend.  I don't know where you went to school, JV, but up here in NYC they've got the welfare system figured out, baby.

Oh, and by the way, if you do actually have to pay for it yourself, do you really think that $2,000.00 per semester, full time, nys resident is a lot to pay for a college education in mid-town Manhattan?

http://www.hunter.cuny.edu/bursar/subpages/tuitionandfees_undergraduate.shtml

I paid the much higher part time rates as I worked full-time by day.

But come on, what is the real problem here?  Why is it that some people just suck it up, take some personal responsibility, and do the right thing, and then there are multitudes of whiners complaining all the time and asking for freebies?

Well let's see unless you are an amazing Student you cannot get into a State School since they are lower cost they are as selective a an Ivy League. The Community Colleges in NYC can be good or really bad.

 OK so you have to send your kid to a private College. Tuition, room, fees, etc. come to about $40K a year which come out of my pocket. I do get a tax deduction for that. If you make a decent living you get to deduct $450.00 from your Federal. Now do I saddle my kid with starting his adult life with $160,000 debt at 8.5% interest, or do I suck it up. I suck it up.

A lot of kids are nudged into the Military out of need. My son's friend is a Recruiter and they hit the High Schools in the poorest areas. No shame in serving your Country, it is sometimes a shame how you Country serves you.

[edbikerii]

Well let's see unless you are an amazing Student you cannot get into a State School since they are lower cost they are as selective a an Ivy League. The Community Colleges in NYC can be good or really bad.

 OK so you have to send your kid to a private College. Tuition, room, fees, etc. come to about $40K a year which come out of my pocket. I do get a tax deduction for that. If you make a decent living you get to deduct $450.00 from your Federal. Now do I saddle my kid with starting his adult life with $160,000 debt at 8.5% interest, or do I suck it up. I suck it up.

A lot of kids are nudged into the Military out of need. My son's friend is a Recruiter and they hit the High Schools in the poorest areas. No shame in serving your Country, it is sometimes a shame how you Country serves you.

I don't know where you live, but CUNY colleges have an open admissions policy.  In the clearest terms, they can't deny anyone access.  I happen to know that SUNY isn't particularly exclusive (with the exception of some key programs), and it is very inexpensive as well (but not as cheap as CUNY).  In fact, most private colleges are harder to get into than SUNY.  There's no need to attend a private college in NY unless you are looking for prestige.  Graduate programs are not open admissions in CUNY, either.  Basically CUNY does not have the reputation of Columbia U, but certain programs are quite excellent.  Baruch's Zicklin School of Business has been rated the best value in MBAs several times in recent years.  It is basically an ivy league quality program, including the reputation, at a CUNY school, at a CUNY price.  Yes, it is hard to get in.

You get out of your education what you put in, just like anything else.

[ieism]

Do they teach you about Guantanamo Bay?

I don't get Americans. They seem alright when you talk to them, but when it's time to vote they're completely lost.