Topic: Ticking Top End... I hate to even ask

[mikedialect]

So, like I said, I hate to even ask...

I'm getting some pretty loud clicking/tapping coming from the top end of my 78 F2. I've adjusted the valves & they are spot on. I looked around here for what is considered 'normal' noise and unfortunately nothing was all that conclusive. I'm wondering if I'm starving the top end of oil or if this ticking is just something I'm being anal about. It's not normally an issue until I've been riding for a bit and the bike is getting hot. So, should I freak out and _______ or ? The bike has been performing great since I have everything in order. Timing, valves, sync, air filter, etc. I even did an oil change after 600 miles just to see if that would make a difference and no improvement. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

-Mike


EDIT: I should also add that there is seemingly a lot of smoke coming out of my breather line from the top end of the engine when it is hot. This might also be an important symptom?


EDIT AGAIN: I'm running 20W50 castrol per Mark/Hondaman's suggestion (well, he didn't say castrol, but that the 20W50 would be a good idea because the bike sat for about 22 years). Also, I've put on around 1500 miles this year and the ticking has really developed in the last 400 miles. Sorry for the multiple edits, but i realized that I was not including a whole lot of info in my original question.

[750goes]

worn cam, badly adjusted valve ( I know you did this but check them again), sticking valve, burnt valve (not sealing properly), worn valve guides....broken valve spring, could be some more issues as well..

lots of smoke from the breather could suggest worn rings, but I would guess some worn valve guides, and valve sealing issues..

does it use much oil ??

have you done a compression test ??

hope this is not too alarming

[mikedialect]

worn cam, badly adjusted valve ( I know you did this but check them again), sticking valve, burnt valve (not sealing properly), worn valve guides....broken valve spring, could be some more issues as well..

lots of smoke from the breather could suggest worn rings, but I would guess some worn valve guides, and valve sealing issues..

does it use much oil ??

have you done a compression test ??

hope this is not too alarming

I have not done a compression test. Would love to get my hands on one of those testers, though.

It leaks a bit of oil from one of the hoses, so i don't have a real accurate idea of oil usage. I top off a bit after a longer ride.

I will give the valves a check again tomorrow for posterity.

I also ran a bit of BG44K through it a few tanks ago- I assume that would help rather than hurt.

So, is this something that should land the bike in the park position? I suppose it's damn near impossible to know without being in the garage...

[TwoTired]

IF your adjuster mating surfaces have worn convex and concave, you can't use a flat feeler gauge to measure true gap.
However, if you know the thread pitch, for example 0.9 mm, then one full turn will create 0.9 mm gap, 1/4 turn will make 0.225mm gap, etc.  In this case .05 mm would 20 degrees rotational movement open from when zero lash was acheived.

Maybe someone else knows what the actual thread pitch of your tappet adjusters is.

Have you checked that the noisy tappet area is wet with oil?

Have you looked at the tappet adjuster mating face?  Worn valve guides can make these look strange.

Any oil smoke from the exhaust?

Cheers,

[mikedialect]

IF your adjuster mating surfaces have worn convex and concave, you can't use a flat feeler gauge to measure true gap.
However, if you know the thread pitch, for example 0.9 mm, then one full turn will create 0.9 mm gap, 1/4 turn will make 0.225mm gap, etc.  In this case .05 mm would 20 degrees rotational movement open from when zero lash was acheived.

Maybe someone else knows what the actual thread pitch of your tappet adjusters is.

Have you checked that the noisy tappet area is wet with oil?

Have you looked at the tappet adjuster mating face?  Worn valve guides can make these look strange.

Any oil smoke from the exhaust?

Cheers,

I *think* I know what you're talking about in regards to the flat feeler guage and the worn tappets... but I think we jumped a hair out of my league (well, tool box;)). I think that I understand, but I am unfamiliar with checking the valves in such a manner. An entirely different set of feelers i've not yet seen!

I will check the noisy area for oil- alas, it is coming fairly equally from the right and left side. First the right and then the left as heat increases (I'm absolutely terrible at including a full description of the issue- things just don't become apparent until i'm talking about them- it's just me and the radio in the garage and I apologize for not having better prepared notes!)

I do- on occasion have some smoke on start up, but I don't have any smoke after that.. and it isn't an every other start kind of thing. It's more like once a week- tops.

[oldbiker]

What Mark means about concave and convex wear is shown in the diagram. A feeler gauge would appear tight when the gap is actually much bigger.

[SOHC steve]

If its breathing heavy its probably looking a little tired inside,possibly a broken ring,but on the bright side I would have a real good look around the exhaust gaskets,they can make a ticking sound if they leak.Also,does the noise get better/worse when cold/hot,when under load and is it intermittent or constant.Did the noise start after you adjusted something?Have you adjusted the cam chain?Cheers Steve

[736cc]

I missed a shift once (or twice) and my K0 and motor backed off a tappet adjuster completely. It only needed re-adjusting.
How many miles on the motor? They sound like a printing press when miles pile up.
They don't grenade from ticking, a hammering metallic tapping might be cause for alarm. And if you have a Vetter fairing or a shorty helmet they sound VERY noisy.
Throw some Marvel Mystery oil in your gas tank, that'll lube your top-end valves and train and quiet things down for a while. Serious; it'll smoke somewhat but that stuff works.
Those motors are tuff, tuff, tuff and run, run, run despite funny noises.

[UnCrash]

    Wow is all I can say 

So, like I said, I hate to even ask...

I'm getting some pretty loud clicking/tapping coming from the top end of my 78 F2. I've adjusted the valves & they are spot on. I looked around here for what is considered 'normal' noise and unfortunately nothing was all that conclusive. I'm wondering if I'm starving the top end of oil or if this ticking is just something I'm being anal about. It's not normally an issue until I've been riding for a bit and the bike is getting hot. So, should I freak out and _______ or ? The bike has been performing great since I have everything in order. Timing, valves, sync, air filter, etc. I even did an oil change after 600 miles just to see if that would make a difference and no improvement. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

-Mike

Mike I was going to post the same exact thing!  I'm not kidding. You and I are experiencing an identical thing.  I've done all things you have including the oil change.  I also have the flat feeler gauge and probably should get one of these ---> http://www.partsnmore.net/item_index.php?part_unique=2662 

I'll take 736cc's advice and check em again as I have certainly missed a shift since I last adjusted the valves in the late spring.  I didn't realize that missing a shift could affect the tappet adjuster much.  Live and learn!

My noise isn't there when starting off cold.  10 minutes into my ride it is apparent.  I have a Vetter which probably does make the sound seem louder as it is reflected to me head! 

Sometimes when riding for a while after I've started hearing the tapping, I'll pull in the clutch and let the rpm's decrease, rev it a couple times and ease the clutch back out.  1/4 of the time the tapping noise will leave for 5 - 10 minutes.

To get at all tappet covers I have to pull the fairing off which can be a pain but I plan on checking them all again shortly.  I'll post my findings when I do.

Thanks for this post Mike.

All the best-

Ben

[mikedialect]

If its breathing heavy its probably looking a little tired inside,possibly a broken ring,but on the bright side I would have a real good look around the exhaust gaskets,they can make a ticking sound if they leak.Also,does the noise get better/worse when cold/hot,when under load and is it intermittent or constant.Did the noise start after you adjusted something?Have you adjusted the cam chain?Cheers Steve

Like I was saying, it does get worse as it gets hotter. It also goes up as the revs get higher. I suppose I could check the exhaust, but it's coming quite squarely from the top of the head. The cam chain was adjusted properly & I know that noise because I was having some trouble with a stuck cam chain tensioner.

[mikedialect]

I missed a shift once (or twice) and my K0 and motor backed off a tappet adjuster completely. It only needed re-adjusting.
How many miles on the motor? They sound like a printing press when miles pile up.
They don't grenade from ticking, a hammering metallic tapping might be cause for alarm. And if you have a Vetter fairing or a shorty helmet they sound VERY noisy.
Throw some Marvel Mystery oil in your gas tank, that'll lube your top-end valves and train and quiet things down for a while. Serious; it'll smoke somewhat but that stuff works.
Those motors are tuff, tuff, tuff and run, run, run despite funny noises.

Sorry, I must have omitted the mileage for some reason. I have 17.5K on the bike.

Would marvel mystery oil be a better choice than the BG44k?

I would say that the tapping is definitely metallic.

I guess the confusing bit is that the bike is running great otherwise.

[736cc]

An exhaust leak sounds like a tapping. Tighten your exhaust spigot stubs when cold, they do loosen up. Pipes don't need to be removed to do so.
And VOTE for your choice of BIKE OF THE MONTH

This pic somehow reminds me of Pamela Andreson; I guess its the cleavage.

[mikedialect]

An exhaust leak sounds like a tapping. Tighten your exhaust spigot stubs when cold, they do loosen up. Pipes don't need to be removed to do so.
And VOTE for your choice of BIKE OF THE MONTH

This pic somehow reminds me of Pamela Andreson; I guess its the cleavage.

I already voted for the bike of the month! I will say that I think you have a wonderful bike, though.

I will give the exhaust bolts a little snugging and give the valves a go once again. I will look up what folks have said about the marvel mystery oil to see if that route will be worth a shot, too. Off to the garage to try once again.

[andy750]

I had a similar tapping sound on my CB750K2 and swore it was the valves which I then adjusted about 6 times but to no avail. Then in despair I took it to Mike Rieck and he spotted it straight away - exhaust bolts/spigot screws (just as 736cc also said). I was amazed that the spigot screws coming loose could mimic valve noise so well. Look for some carbon deposits around the exhaust spigot point as well to see if any blow by.

good luck,
Andy

[333]

BG44K is a fuel system cleaner, Marvel Mystery Oil is a top end lube.  I might be hesitant  to put MMO in the tank.  Are you running pods or the stock airbox?  If you're running pods, pop them off and squirt the MMO in the carbs when the engine is running.  If you're running the stock airbox, I'd suggest pulling the sparkplugs and squirt the MMO in there.  It may cost you a set of sparkplugs.  My concern about putting the MMO in the fuel tank is it might be a bit thick to go through some of the smaller passages in the carbs, and it also might be a bit too thin to do the intended job.

My Dad used to pour MMO right down the carb of the car, once or twice to the point of almost stalling it out, and then choke out the motor on the last pour.  Talk about smoke!! 

[upperlake04]

Mike - I had the same situation with the 78 750F -the reason for the noise was as TT and OldBiker described and was caused by inadequate oil flow to the top end.  BryanJ responded to my question some time ago with..

   "and as a dealer Mech I never used feeler gauges but adjusted by "feel". It takes some practice but 1 full turn of the adjuster is 40 thou so 1/4 is 10 thou and 1/8 is 5 thou which is near as dammit the 4 thou that we were given as a spec and 2 thou is just enough play to feel without hearing a "click" Honestly its easier than it sounds and I never had a problem."

  A similar tapping noise from the top end again  appeared recently (after 2000 miles) during acceleration from low rpms , but this time the solution was to tweak the timing with the strobe as it had strayed slightly...

[mikedialect]

Mike - I had the same situation with the 78 750F -the reason for the noise was as TT and OldBiker described and was caused by inadequate oil flow to the top end.  BryanJ responded to my question some time ago with..

   "and as a dealer Mech I never used feeler gauges but adjusted by "feel". It takes some practice but 1 full turn of the adjuster is 40 thou so 1/4 is 10 thou and 1/8 is 5 thou which is near as dammit the 4 thou that we were given as a spec and 2 thou is just enough play to feel without hearing a "click" Honestly its easier than it sounds and I never had a problem."

  A similar tapping noise from the top end again  appeared recently (after 2000 miles) during acceleration from low rpms , but this time the solution was to tweak the timing with the strobe as it had strayed slightly...

So, what he is saying... is that he adjusted to two thousandths of an inch for the intake? I can see how one might get the right 'feel' for adjusting those, but I've adjusted valves 9 times in my life, so I'm not sure I trust my hand just yet.

As for the exhaust being loose, I went through the header this morning and gave each bolt a check. Some of them were actually a little loose. Now, all of them are backed in where they need to be. This did not solve the issue.

I also went through and adjusted the valves again. This time I took Mark's suggestion and tightened the valves to .04mm intake .07mm exhaust. Per usual, after a quick jaunt on the freeway the noise crept up again. I pulled into the garage and grabbed my fan and pointed it at the engine. I pulled off the #4 exhaust tappet cover and sure enough my clickity clack is coming from the tappets still. The valves were still on in regards of how I had them set before.. and before I went and tightened one more mm.

Posted by: 333
Insert Quote
BG44K is a fuel system cleaner, Marvel Mystery Oil is a top end lube.  I might be hesitant  to put MMO in the tank.  Are you running pods or the stock airbox?  If you're running pods, pop them off and squirt the MMO in the carbs when the engine is running.  If you're running the stock airbox, I'd suggest pulling the sparkplugs and squirt the MMO in there.  It may cost you a set of sparkplugs.  My concern about putting the MMO in the fuel tank is it might be a bit thick to go through some of the smaller passages in the carbs, and it also might be a bit too thin to do the intended job.

My Dad used to pour MMO right down the carb of the car, once or twice to the point of almost stalling it out, and then choke out the motor on the last pour.  Talk about smoke!! 

I was feeling a little bit hesitant about the MMO in the tank as well, but I'm feeling dumber as the days pass so I was potentially willing to give it a shot. So, you're saying a few drips of MMO below the plugs might do the trick?

[upperlake04]

  The mechanical condition of the valve tip can be visually verified by setting TDC for that cylinder, removing the adjuster screw, and looking down through the threaded hole to the end of the valve. You might need a strong light and a pair of magnifying glasses. I'll add that it would have been a good idea in my case to have carefully stuffed a piece of cloth in and around the valve spring to catch any dropped small part. 
  If that isn't the problem, you are one step closer to identifying what is.   Thats the beauty of working on these machines - the principals are logic based and can be sorted out by the process of elimination. 

[mikedialect]

  The mechanical condition of the valve tip can be visually verified by setting TDC for that cylinder, removing the adjuster screw, and looking down through the threaded hole to the end of the valve. You might need a strong light and a pair of magnifying glasses. I'll add that it would have been a good idea in my case to have carefully stuffed a piece of cloth in and around the valve spring to catch any dropped small part. 
  If that isn't the problem, you are one step closer to identifying what is.   Thats the beauty of working on these machines - the principals are logic based and can be sorted out by the process of elimination. 

Not a bad idea. I will definitely give that a shot. That picture up there wouldn't happen to be an example of a worn one, would it? So, I know what I'm looking for

[upperlake04]

Yes, it is. Here's a very worn valve pic posted by Serge from his F. If this is the problem, it can be fixed by trimming the damaged valve tip and installing lash caps. Gentleman MRieck on this forum helped me with this project.

[333]

I was feeling a little bit hesitant about the MMO in the tank as well, but I'm feeling dumber as the days pass so I was potentially willing to give it a shot. So, you're saying a few drips of MMO below the plugs might do the trick?

It might.  This trick will work better for the exhaust valve because the act of evacuating what is in the cylinder will pass the MMO past the exhaust valve & stem.  And it will take a bit more than a few drips.  Probably about an ounce per cylinder But the idea is to get the MMO where it will lube the valve stem and the seal.  The best way to do that for the intake valve is to get the MMO in through the carb.  If you are running the stock airbox, you'll have to remove it to do this.  But then it's only a few more minutes to get the rack of carbs off, and then you can almost see if you made contact with the oil.

This having been said, I'm liking the exhaust gasket theory more than valve noise.  I had forgotten, but after some of the other responces I remembered That I've lived through this multiple(3) times.  One of these times it took replacing the gaskets to correct the noise.

Are you thoroughly confused yet?

[jtb]

Mike I had the same problem with my 77 750F.  The valve stems were all mushroomed so they wouldn't stay adjusted.  I also had bad guides and valves.  I hope your luck is better than mine.
John

[Hockers Choppers]

My F3 had 12,000 mile when I took it apart. The exhaust valve had more than .010 clearance!! should be around .001! I had alot of noise too. I bet this is you problem. The late F heads beat the hell out of exhaust guide for some reason. I put a K head on mine with a K cylinder and big bore, porting cam, etc. I have very little hair and liver left to prove it!!!!!! But I know my bike inside and out now and I love the #$%* even more!?!

[mikedialect]

Well, I'm thoroughly confused now!


So, it sounds like I'm screwed and eventually one of my valves/ guides will eventually stop working?

I imagine that if I let it go the cost of a rebuild only goes up? I'm pretty much up the creek if that's the case. Just when I was starting to like the bike, too. I'm not really sure where to go from here. Check to see if the valve tops are mushroomed? and if so? I would wager that it isn't my exhaust because when I take the tappet cover off the noise is coming directly from there. But hey- what do I know!

[upperlake04]

I would wager that it isn't my exhaust because when I take the tappet cover off the noise is coming directly from there. But hey- what do I know!

Appears you know it isn't exhaust Check the valve tips and when you're in there and have removed the adjuster screw, push and pull the valve stem sideways to see how much play there is in the stem/guide. There might be a clue there.