Topic: Oil change: how much truth there is in "conventional wisdom"?

[eldar]

So you are completely happy changing oil more than you need to based off of 30+ year old documents based on oil that was not nearly as good as it is today? I understand about changing it before it is worn out, I am talking about needlessly changing it just cause some old book says so.

I mean really, what is 1000 miles or even 1500? Some people will put more than that on in 1 road trip. What, are you supposed to stop for oil and change it in a parking lot just cause an old moldy books thinks you should?

Well now you're talking about manufacturer's recommendations, which is not the same discussion as we're having.  These recommendations are based on the engine technology and oils that are currently available.  Honda's recommendations from 38 years ago aren't necessarily accurate based on today's oils.  Again, apples and oranges.

Arent you talking about manufacturer suggestions too though? Again, oil has come a LONG way since 1969 or even 1978.
Look at the rotella, it is way better than almost anything from back then. So why would a change at 1000-1500 be needed? That interval was set for crappy oil so I suppose if you use the walmart or kmart special, yeah then it probably IS good to change often. But then the argument could be made about why a person is using such cheap oil, WHY DO THAT TO YOUR BIKE?
I would rather run a good oil longer than use a crap ass oil.
Besides, any of you who consistently run your bike into the red, none of you can talk. Most engine damage will occur in the red range regardless of the oil you run and how often you change it.

I think the problem is that so many of you have done it the same way for so long that you are stuck in a rut. I am not saying the method does not work, just that it is wasteful and probably completely unnecessary. Do I expect you to change. No, just maybe give it some thought.

that is one thing raul likes to do but many here refuse to. Just cause the bikes maybe old does not mean they do not benefit.

[mystic_1]

I'm looking back on this thread and trying to find anywhere that I said I change my oil every 1000-1500 miles, that I follow the 38 year old manufacturer's recommendations blindly, or that I use crap-ass oil?

I think you're making a lot of assumptions about things I've not said.



I was responding to Raúl's questions about "why change the oil while hot" and "my car goes 20000 miles between oil changes so why shouldn't my bike be able to do the same".

cheers
mystic_1

[Gordon]

Do I expect you to change. No, just maybe give it some thought.

What makes you think we haven't?  Just because I don't decide to change the way I do something because someone challenges my reasons for doing it that way doesn't mean I didn't give it any thought. 

[Gordon]

Basically, my reason for continuing to change the oil in my motorcycles and cars as often as I always have is because nobody has provided any good reason (accompanied by scientific evidence) that I can change it less often without any ill-effects.  It's all speculation and conjecture, which is fine for discussion purposes, but not for getting me to change the way I do something. 

All I know is I'm not doing any harm to my engines by changing the oil in them more often than some think I need to, and it's really not much of a waste of time or money either considering how often it's done, so I'm going to continue to do it that way.   

[scondon]

So you are completely happy changing oil more than you need to based off of 30+ year old documents based on oil that was not nearly as good as it is today? I understand about changing it before it is worn out, I am talking about needlessly changing it just cause some old book says so.

I mean really, what is 1000 miles or even 1500? Some people will put more than that on in 1 road trip. What, are you supposed to stop for oil and change it in a parking lot just cause an old moldy books thinks you should?

Well now you're talking about manufacturer's recommendations, which is not the same discussion as we're having.  These recommendations are based on the engine technology and oils that are currently available.  Honda's recommendations from 38 years ago aren't necessarily accurate based on today's oils.  Again, apples and oranges.

Arent you talking about manufacturer suggestions too though? Again, oil has come a LONG way since 1969 or even 1978.
Look at the rotella, it is way better than almost anything from back then. So why would a change at 1000-1500 be needed? That interval was set for crappy oil so I suppose if you use the walmart or kmart special, yeah then it probably IS good to change often. But then the argument could be made about why a person is using such cheap oil, WHY DO THAT TO YOUR BIKE?
I would rather run a good oil longer than use a crap ass oil.
Besides, any of you who consistently run your bike into the red, none of you can talk. Most engine damage will occur in the red range regardless of the oil you run and how often you change it.

I think the problem is that so many of you have done it the same way for so long that you are stuck in a rut. I am not saying the method does not work, just that it is wasteful and probably completely unnecessary. Do I expect you to change. No, just maybe give it some thought.

that is one thing raul likes to do but many here refuse to. Just cause the bikes maybe old does not mean they do not benefit.

   Far as I know, oil technology has not advanced so far as to magically remove metal shavings from the pan. A fine dust of aluminum and steel will come out of the drain plug with every oil change. Am I anal about getting this stuff out before it embeds in bearings, you bet    Will the engine perform better in the first 1000 miles of an oil change compared to the last 1000 miles, yep.

 Am I blindly following instructions geared to shift my precious pennies to the pockets of greedy capitalist salesman, anally following procedures that may or may not have benefits but apparently(to my ass in the seat) do, not giving a crap as long as I get my peace of mind? Guilty, guilty, guilty and happy to serve my time

Spectro or HP4 every 2000 miles or before any trip of 600+ miles. Top off with same or whatever brand/weight is available on the road.

Nice thing about regular changes is that you're more likely to notice a problem before it has a chance to eat your bike. As long as you are riding those problems WILL come up

[Raul CB750K1]

Eldar hit the nail in the head when he said that what I pretended was to give some food for tought.

When I bought my Audi, back in 2000, it was my very first brand new car, ever. I was used to 5.000 km service interval. Now, I spent 24.000 euro in a car and the manufacturer says to pour some oil and forget for the next 30.000 km. My brother tried to convince me not to heed to that and use regular TDI oil and change it every 15.000 km, the standard for turbo diesel oil. Well, I couldn't help but wonder whether Audi wanted his cars to worn out at 100.000 km so you have to buy another one. It is 140.000 km and it runs like a champ -knock on wood-, and, as I said, it just needs a half liter refill between services. It has happened always, and always the same amount. It happened at 15.000 in the odo, and it happened at 115.000, and always the same amount. It didn't seem to burn more oil than it did when new.

So, were Audi confident of their recomendations? They were. Were the customers confident? Not in my case. I have a hard time trying to adapt to a new way of servicing cars.

Oil subject has lot of ramifications and always seems to touch a nerve. I tried to point out that the "conventional wisdom" about warming the oil before changing didn't make much sense to me. It was not about oil, it was just about subjects that seem to be etched in stone and take either scientifically proof or test of time to be removed from the "conventional wisdom". I didn't even wanted to prove one or other theory, but just raise some discussion so when people do change the oil, they do it because they are convinced they are doing the best way, not because it's the way it has always been done.

[mystic_1]

raise some discussion so when people do change the oil, they do it because they are convinced they are doing the best way, not because it's the way it has always been done.

I absolutely agree with this idea.  Too many practices are perpetuated simply because "that's the way I've always done it" even when those practices don't make sense.  One should always consider why things are being done a particular way, even if "everyone else does it".  That sort of thinking is for lemmings

[joecool14u2]

look, if i built something, it last for 30 years, why would it be hard for you to follow my directions for care 

[tonycb650]

True story, I saw this tv show where a guy in some remote country after thier town first got electricity ,climbed on the roof of a building and grabbed A high voltage power wire. After nearly dying , the media asked him why he had done this . He replied,'I could not see electricity so I did not believe it , but now I do'.      Even though I don't have scientific evidence about carbon ,particle ,moisture,ect.,I perfer not to grab the power lines and change my oil.

[ofreen]

I've caught a little flak on this forum and the old mailing list over the years when I've said I change the oil in my bikes every 3000-4000 miles and the filter every other oil change.  Yet the results speak for themselves.  All of my bikes are getting up there in mileage and they are going strong.

On a side note, I remember years ago when Motorcycle Consumer News did their oil study and came to the conclusion that there wasn't much difference between car oils and motorcycle oil.  I didn't agree with that conclusion then, and I don't agree with it now.  That is based on observations of my bikes over many miles and years.  I can tell when oil starts to go "off."  The engines becomes noticeably noisier and buzzier, shifts more balky.  This is especially noticeable on hot days.  When I used car oil, this deterioration became noticeable at lower miles.  I gradually extended my oil change interval after I started using motorcycle specific oils such as HP4 and Spectro.  As I have said here many times, I now use BMW oil (Spectro) because that is what they sell at my favorite motorcycle shop.  Even at 3000 miles, I don't really notice any deterioration in this oil, but I usually change it at that point.  I have no doubt it could go farther with no harm to the engine, but I have settled on 3000 miles these days.  However twice now, I have gone on 5500 mile tours on the CBR without an oil change during the trip.  The oil came out looking pretty much like it looked going in after the trips when I changed it 3 weeks later.  This on an engine that is now over 50,000 miles.

I have no doubt motorcycle specific oils are better these days than ones I used 25-30 years ago.  However, I can't say the same about car oils, but time will tell.

It is interesting to note that the factory recommended change interval for both my CBR1000 and R100GS-PD is 8000 miles.  Note one of them runs the engine oil in the gearbox, the other doesn't.

I change the oil when hot.  It runs out faster that way.

[333]

look, if i built something, it last for 30 years, why would it be hard for you to follow my directions for care 

Look, if i built something, and it lasted for 30 years, how would I ever make any money selling you another?

[TwoTired]

Has anybody noticed that liquid cooled motors do not experience the extreme temperature variations that air cooled motors do?
  Do you think extreme heating of oil, changes its lubricative qualities?

[scondon]

Has anybody noticed that liquid cooled motors do not experience the extreme temperature variations that air cooled motors do?
  Do you think extreme heating of oil, changes its lubricative qualities?

  Damn, you sure know how to ruin a good thread

   

[ofreen]

Has anybody noticed that liquid cooled motors do not experience the extreme temperature variations that air cooled motors do?
  Do you think extreme heating of oil, changes its lubricative qualities?

Your point is well taken, Lloyd, which is one of the reasons I don't go to 8000 miles on my BMW (air-cooled), living here in the desert and all.  But even my old 750 doesn't get "extremely hot" even when the temps are 100+.  Even in stop and go traffic.  Some of that is because a good oil is up to the task.  And I am talking about a motor in stock tune.

[eldar]

Mystic, I was generalizing. I was not aiming at you specifically. I guess I am just like raul on some things. I sometimes question some things. Ofreen gives me some basis. He does not do the often changes, he just goes and changes as he does. It obviously works.

Scondon, break in is completely different. but if you get metal shavings in your oil, then oil is not your issue. Something else has gone south. I suppose it could be caused by oil but generally unless oil goes WAY past its protection or somehow the engine gets starved, I doubt oil will really affect something like that.

[scondon]

Has anybody noticed that liquid cooled motors do not experience the extreme temperature variations that air cooled motors do?
  Do you think extreme heating of oil, changes its lubricative qualities?

Your point is well taken, Lloyd, which is one of the reasons I don't go to 8000 miles on my BMW (air-cooled), living here in the desert and all.  But even my old 750 doesn't get "extremely hot" even when the temps are 100+.  Even in stop and go traffic.  Some of that is because a good oil is up to the task.  And I am talking about a motor in stock tune.

  Those semi-synths are real sweet. Even on a motor that runs oil temps past 260F they hold up pretty good. Switched to Spectro 20/50 for the long Summer trips in the heat. $26 to enjoy sustained speeds in the heat, I'll take it

   If one really wants to run the same oil until they sell/junk their stocker then put in 30wt and never look back.Honda recommended, I swear(the weight, not the "never change" part). Two buddies of mine who have never been able to remove their stuck filter bolts just keep adding this stuff as needed, '75 and '76 F bikes, and swing by every few years for a tune-up. Have no idea what the insides look like but the tune-up keeps'em rolling along. Gave up trying to get them to let me at least unstick the bolt and change the oil/filter but they'd rather I just clean/gap points and check valve gaps and let them roll on the cheap. Realized that I was trying to convince them to spend $$ on something they didn't want so I decided to adopt the "I'm happy if your happy" approach and just let them ride their ride the way they want to.

   If they roll in with brake pads that have worn completely through the metal backing so that the piston is scraping the rotor I will not let them roll out again, whether they want it fixed or not. My friend said that the scraping sound had grown quieter,it still slowed the bike, and it only heat-seized if it was applied regularly so it didn't need fixing. True story and we're still friends even though I made him walk home

Mystic, I was generalizing. I was not aiming at you specifically. I guess I am just like raul on some things. I sometimes question some things. Ofreen gives me some basis. He does not do the often changes, he just goes and changes as he does. It obviously works.

Scondon, break in is completely different. but if you get metal shavings in your oil, then oil is not your issue. Something else has gone south. I suppose it could be caused by oil but generally unless oil goes WAY past its protection or somehow the engine gets starved, I doubt oil will really affect something like that.

   Put a magnetic drain plug in your bike and get back to me in a few months Eldy. "A fine dust of aluminum and steel" has nothing to do with the oil or how often it's changed just the nature of moving parts. If metal shavings do show up then I'd like to know sooner than later which was the point I was trying unsuccessfully to make. Doubt it's harmful and I'm admittedly ANAL about this stuff, just posting my preference which is what this entire thread is.

  Nice thing about preferences is that EVERYONE posting here gets to be right while EVERYONE else is completely off their rocker, clueless, or just plain stupid

  You do rock,Eldar, regardless of what they say

[ofreen]

  Nice thing about preferences is that EVERYONE posting here gets to be right while EVERYONE else is completely off their rocker, clueless, or just plain stupid

 

One thing that is probably true is that no one has ever damaged their engine by changing the oil more often than necessary.

This discussion reminds me of another one I was in recently about PowerGlide transmissions.  Back in the good old days, the Powerglide was considered to be at best a 100,000 mile tranny (if that), after which it had to be rebuilt.  I knew very few people that ever had them serviced.  Most trannies seemed to have the same fluid in them when they died as they did when they were born.  The only way they'd ever see new fluid is if they leaked.  On the other hand, the one in my '68 Nova is at 220,000 miles and still works OK.  Maybe because I change the fluid and filter every decade or so whether it needs it or not.

[jonbuoy]

No-one else notices how much better an engine revs after an oil change?  I think if you put them on a Dyno you would see the difference.  I wouldn't fancy flying in a plane that hadn't had regular oil changes. 

[754]

"Changing oil, is the CHEAPEST thing you can do to your motor..!"




in the long run..

[TwoTired]

Has anybody noticed that liquid cooled motors do not experience the extreme temperature variations that air cooled motors do?
  Do you think extreme heating of oil, changes its lubricative qualities?

Your point is well taken, Lloyd, which is one of the reasons I don't go to 8000 miles on my BMW (air-cooled), living here in the desert and all.  But even my old 750 doesn't get "extremely hot" even when the temps are 100+.  Even in stop and go traffic.  Some of that is because a good oil is up to the task.  And I am talking about a motor in stock tune.

If we assume that the combustion temps are the same inside the cylinder chamber, consider the path difference and distance the heat must travel in the "oiled" environment.  The water jacket is usually between the heat source and the oil supply, not counting the backs of the pistons, of course.  I'm thinking about oil for the rockers and above the head.  The oil supply in our air cooled motors is between the heat source and the cooling fins.  Seems reasonable to expect the oil in an air cooled motor to be subjected to higher extremes.  It is also at the mercy of ambient air and air flow concerns, as well.  Liquid cooled motors generally have a thermostat and fan to keep the coolant in the water jacket pretty constant, despite the ambient temps.  There is also the observation that the o rings in the head of the SOHC4 often leak due to excess heat and age.  They are sealing the oil supply passages to the head.  So, it seems reasonable to assume the oil is experiencing the same heat that is deteriorating the orings.

I like the semi-synthetics for the same reason Sean stated.  They maintain lubricative abilities at higher temps than conventional oil.  If stuck in traffic on a hot day, the motor is more likely to be saved.  Doesn't mean the oil isn't damaged anyway and needs to be changed.  But, I can make it home to do so without scaring up the engine.

I can tell when oil starts to go "off."  The engines becomes noticeably noisier and buzzier, shifts more balky.  This is especially noticeable on hot days.

I've noticed this, too.  It's a clear signal for me to change the oil regardless of miles on the oil.

Anyway, to reiterate, I'm not sure I can accept change intervals used for liquid cooled motors as being applicable or demonstrable to air cooled types.  How many autos have air cooled motors?  Do these motors need the same oils as the liquid cooled fleet?  Is their recommended change interval comparable?

Cheers,

[scondon]

  How many autos have air cooled motors? 

   Remember the "Rveeco" coolers slapped on the side of the old VW buses?.  The floor heater was just a passage routed over the motor if I remember right, nice and toasty. My dear old Ma has owned nothing but VW vans as long as I've lived. The old ones both went up in flames on the side of the road but the liquid cooled Vanagon has lasted a couple decades and still has plenty punch................for a VW van that is

[Buber]

"Changing oil, is the CHEAPEST thing you can do to your motor..!"
in the long run..

Just to stir teh pot.... I beg to differ.
Some of my points fo view, and thoughts -
Oil price - to many of you it may be inignificant, but to me it is. Simply - In Europe cheapo oil for motorcycles (mineral) will cost minimum 10U$ a liter (which is just a tad more than a quart, but we can assume it's the same), dedicated full synth for motorcycles will cost anything between 15 and, say 18 U$. Now, if I'm to pay every 2-3 months 60U$ for oil, then I will think about it. Now, you will say, that soon my engine will go bye-bye... Well, last time i looked at ebay, I could find a 650 engine fro 200u$ - in US, granted, but on the other hand, I found my bike for 450 euros. So..... maybe it's better to simply ride and enjoy?
Other thing - that made me think a lot! I know a guy that works in London as a courier. he is whacking something like 60-70.000 kms in a year on a bike - rides all day, every day. And he said teh following: "I'm using a Suzuki GS500 - air cooled. I bought it with something like 50.000 kms. Now, it had over 100.000 and I DIDN'T CHANGE THE OIL. Only filled up. Consumption was normal." He did it because he didn't had time and money to timker with oil changes.
Now, topic became very hot (on the other forum) so, he put the engine apart.
http://www.wbv.pl/gallery.php?entry=images/vjykkyo0dmejmjz2mmny.jpg
http://www.wbv.pl/gallery.php?entry=images/mwx42quzyjzm2ngymyjm.jpg
http://www.wbv.pl/gallery.php?entry=images/o5wztdyemtyayelzvn4h.jpg
Those are internals of an engine with 60kkm without oil change.

Now, maybe it's bogus, but I don't see why he would bother. On the other hand - change the oil as often as you think, I'm changing every spring, with the filter, and I do about 10-12kkm a season (that's about 6500miles). And I won't change oil in between. It's not worth it.

Either way - do whetever makes you happy! After all if it was about transportation (getting from point A to point B) we should all use bicycles, or public transportation or something... yet we all ride old, obsolete, motorcycles... 

[Raul CB750K1]

Yeah, in America they don't know much about motorcycle couriers. They have bicycle couriers in NYC but in big european capitals, the only way to send urgent matters to the other part of the city is via a motorcycle courier. They are well known to run the crap out of their motorcycles, and as they are usually freelance, they work monday to friday -even saturday- and the last thing they want to do on weekends is to service their motorcycles. In UK the Honda CX500 was popular among couriers, and in Spain, the Honda CB250 is the most popular. Once the bike is 60.000 or 70.000 km it is so beaten that they can't expect to resell it, and is is not worth to rebuild it because the cost exceeds the bike value, so they just do the bare minimum to keep it running. Tell them about using o-ring chains, they just use industrial chain bought by the bulk.

[Buber]

And they run those bikes, and they are NOT exploding under them.... How come?
Simply - engineering and oil development goes forward....

But - ultimately - If we would have "tinker-free" and "hassle-free" motorcycles we wouldn't be riding 30yr old motorcycles, would we?
I can't wait... friday afternoon... new steel brake lines... 

[Raul CB750K1]

Allright, let's forget about conventional wisdom and look at the facts:

Oil is needed for lubrication: fact
Oil degrades with time, use and heat-cool cycles: haven't got evidence, but I assume it is fact.
Oil collects carbon deposits and metal shavings from the engine: fact -if you change your oil you know it is a fact-.


Anybody who buys a vehicle knows that he will have to change the oil. That's conventional wisdom. Conventional wisdom says that he should heed to what the manufacturer says.

The only important thing in the above mentioned facts is the first one: oil is needed for lubrication. We change the oil because we fear that the two latter facts affect the lubing properties of the oil. If we were told our oil would last forever and that metal shavings would never harm our engine, who would care in changing the oil in spite of the black color or the sediments?

So, the best moment to change the oil is whichever comes first of these two moments: the oil has degraded beyond it's lubing capabilities, or the amount of sediment is beyond the safe point.

If the carbon and shavings issue is so important, why wasting my money in expensive oil? Shavings and carbon are unrelated to oil, the amount of carbon and shavings depends on the engine condition. Therefore, if I have to renew the oil after 3.000 miles, I would buy the cheapest oil as long as it doesn't degrade before that point. That would open a new discussion, as my 3.000 miles may be different than yours. City traffic is not the same as road traffic etc, but let's assume they are the same.


Now, if a manufacturer says that you can get away with 10.000 miles service intervals, he is telling you that the carbon and shavings are not important up to that point. If they are not important in THAT bike, why should it be in THIS bike? Technology has come a long way, but mostly outside the engine. Inside the engine everythings looks very much the same, heads and cylinder tunnels are made of aluminum, barrels are made of iron etc. And don't tell me the tolerances were looser 30 years ago. Back then they were perfectly able to machine a piston and cylinder at the exact tolerance, like today. The amount of carbon and shavings should be pretty similar in old and new machines.


How about braking with the rear wheel? Raise your hand anyone who has ever believed that the best way to brake was with the rear to avoid flying over the handlebar -I raise my hand-. It just takes a little faith and a hard braking to check by oneself that the rear braking myth was conventional wisdom. Other things -like service intervals- are harder to demonstrate and takes more faith and less self-experience.