Author Topic: Engine as partial stress member  (Read 9612 times)

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Offline strynboen

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2014, 11:02:47 AM »
 :)
« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 04:13:52 AM by strynboen »
i kan not speak english/but trying!!
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=60973.0
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144758.0
i hate all this v-w.... vords

Offline MarshallCS

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2014, 11:51:16 PM »
I don't want anyone to think that I'm going to hack apart my bike or anything like that. Most of my questions are curiosity based from an engineering standpoint. It's not about wanting to make this bike something that it isn't by any means. That's just how I learn about different parts of the bike. Sorry if I offended anyone

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Offline Stev-o

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2014, 05:28:13 PM »
:)

Hey strynboen - you jack up CBX under the pipes??
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Offline DavePhipps

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2014, 06:39:45 PM »
Matin Frame


Entire thread of cool frames
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=59806.25
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Offline grcamna2

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2014, 08:17:47 PM »
I had an 86' VFR750F Interceptor w/ the 90 degree V-Four engine,the 1st year VFR sport bike and I removed the engine a few times & it dropped right out the bottom w/ no frame cradling it down below;it was definitely a stressed member of the Aluminum box section frame.
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts'
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2014, 09:36:57 PM »
Here's some insight for the CB750:
The rear of the engine is the 'box' for the frame. There are 3 major bolts there: the upper engine bolt, the lower engine/footpegs rod, and the swingarm bolt. These 3 must be tightened first when assembling the 'system'. It causes the middle uprights of the frame to twist inward, rigidizing the whole middle of the bike. Then the lower and front bolts of the engine get tightened, and the engine stays perfectly square. If the front bolts are tightened first, the rear wheel can end up off-center ever so slightly, as the swingarm's pivot is not square to the frame. This will be felt in the bike as a push-back in the right-hand grip when you are riding.

The engine cases twist a lot during hard runs. So much so, that if you have a post-1972 750 with the dual-row output bearing on the final drive, and it is not well-worn in, it loses a couple of HP to binding in the lower gears at a hard run. This is why the single-row final drive was/is coveted by the drag racers and roadracers. In most of these engines, they don't run as easily under hard push until they have enough miles on them to not bind the transmission bearings under all this twist: the so-called "high-speed" ball bearings on one side of the tranny shafts were/are used to reduce this bind under power: they are nothing more than bearings with one less ball than normal, and with .0003"-.0005" more inner race clearance. Once these bearings wear in well, they last for a very long time because they don't support much load, they just hold the alignments "like a willow tree".

You can 'see' these flexes even by hand when you have the cases apart: set a dial indicator to the left front corner of the lower case with it clamped ell to a mill, then press the right rear corner with your thumb, hard. You will see the distortion show up, every time! This makes it real tricky to align-bore the main crank bearings, and it explains perfectly why the bearings virtually stop wearing after they reach "normalization", somewhere around .0016" clearance, typically. When they have worn enough to let the cases flex around the crank (which DOESN'T flex much), there is enough support for the whole system.

The 750 also has a small cylinder base-to-height ratio that would not seal well if the cylinders were stressed as in the CB/CL Hawk series bikes, or the CBX. There would have to be additional seals added at the base to contain the oil, although this could be done. If you've ever built a SuperHawk engine, you know just how hard it is to separate those cylinders from the case, and how easy it is to have them leak if you don't torque it all back together just right. That section of those engines is heavily overbuilt, to create the missing downtube of those frames.  ;)
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Offline grcamna2

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2014, 07:38:13 AM »
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline MJL

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2014, 03:44:50 PM »
kinda like this bike from satanicmech.'s website



that pic gives me major wood
You should look up some Georges Martin frames, you may just mess your pants.

Years ago one of the members here had a pink Martin frame, I saved the pics because I wanted to copy it. They are on one of these darn computers somewhere.
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Offline lucky

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2014, 03:47:37 PM »

Offline MJL

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2014, 03:50:24 PM »
Here's some of those pics I saved. I want to know what is under the tank.





I think that if the frame is designed right it won't stress the engine much if at all, but I'm not an engineer, so who knows.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2014, 03:52:53 PM by MJL »
No matter how fast or how far I rode, I couldn't leave her memory behind.

Offline MarshallCS

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #35 on: June 09, 2014, 03:17:15 AM »
THose are some amazing frames.


And thank you hondaman for your very detailed and concise answer!
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Offline grcamna2

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #36 on: June 09, 2014, 06:34:58 AM »
Those nice custom frames pictured Matin or Martin ? I like'em !
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline strynboen

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2014, 10:14:37 AM »
:)
hey steve....
not only jack....senterstand are on...it only for it not tip;;ing forvard
« Last Edit: June 09, 2014, 10:18:27 AM by strynboen »
i kan not speak english/but trying!!
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=60973.0
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144758.0
i hate all this v-w.... vords