Author Topic: Engine as partial stress member  (Read 9605 times)

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Offline rbmgf7

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Engine as partial stress member
« on: August 06, 2008, 07:32:27 AM »
I was curious if anyone here was brave enough to make their engine a partial stress member amongst the chassis? i've seen a few frames on satanicmechanics site and was wondering if anyone here has one. if so, more pics please  ;D

Offline heffay

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2008, 07:36:49 AM »
"brave" might not be the right word.   ;)
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Offline markjenn

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2008, 09:09:45 AM »
I was curious if anyone here was brave enough to make their engine a partial stress member amongst the chassis?

I thought any solidly-mounted engine that is surrounded by the frame is a "partial stress member".

- Mark

Offline heffay

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2008, 09:31:53 AM »
in order to be stressed... the engine must be used as part of the frame.  if it is only cradled by the frame, it is not stressed.

i've never heard to it referred to as "partially stressed"... an engine is either a stressed member or it is not.
Today: '73 cb350f, '96 Ducati 900 Supersport
Past Rides: '72 tc125, '94 cbr600f2, '76 rd400, '89 ex500, '93 KTM-125exc, '92 zx7r, '93 Banshee, '83 ATC250R, 77/75 cb400f

Offline markjenn

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2008, 12:48:08 PM »
in order to be stressed... the engine must be used as part of the frame.  if it is only cradled by the frame, it is not stressed.

Any engine solidly mounted to a frame that solidly attaches at points that brace the frame is most-decidedly stressed.  If you take the engine out of a CB750 the frame will definitely be less stiff.  And the engineers factored this into the design as they do with all solidly-mounted engines.

Some bikes totally rely on engine as the frame - some BMWs attach the steering head to front of the engine and the rear of the bike to the back of the engine.  Conversely, some engines are rubber-mounted and the engine does nothing.  I think there are lots of shades of grey in-between so I don't get the "they're stressed or not" statement.  I think the term "partially stressed" is designed to cover that grey area for lots of designs that distribute the load between the frame and the engine.

A CB750 doesn't have engine mounts on the cylinder heads though so it is definitely less stressed than many of the newer designs which do use the engine more extensively - the CB750 engine basically braces the two bottom frame rails, but the majority of the load is borne by the backbone.  I have no idea whether this meets the bar of "partially stressed" or not.

But forgetting the terminology discussion, it would help to know what the OP had in mind which I would assume is to use the engine more than it is now used.  Fashion an attachment point high on the engine?  Cut the backbone out and attach the steering head to the cyl head and the rear of the frame to the engine cases?

- Mark
« Last Edit: August 06, 2008, 01:01:04 PM by markjenn »

Offline heffay

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2008, 01:16:28 PM »
it made sense up until you said take the motor out... now, why the heck would you need to ride around on a frame w/ wheels and no motor?

its kindof like saying the drywall in a house is a stressed member because it helps to add rigidity to the house... drywall should never be considered a stressed member or used as such.

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Online dusterdude

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2008, 01:22:57 PM »
an engine is used as a stressed member if the frame is not a perimeter frame.that is the engine is hanging from the frame mounts,ie just about any sport bike made in that last 15 years or so.
mark
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Offline rbmgf7

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2008, 04:13:43 PM »
if you placed a force between two engine mounts, then it does become a stressed member. however, you would only see this if you crash into something  :o

if you look at your frame, you could actually eliminate the frame rails between the two bottom mounts. this rail technically doesn't see any forces, it's all applied to the cases. now, only if you trust the case mounts to be sturdy and structural enough to handle it's own weight and applied forces from riding. but if you're anal about weight, you may save a pound  ;D

i would say the engine was to be a stressed member if it had a mount on top like my KZ400. then it would help deflection by the moment caused by turning. if you look at the bike from the front, then it would be triangulated from the left/right and top mount points.

from my original post, i was sorta implying a partial stressed member like the motorcycles nowadays where there is very little frame structures. more "the engine is the frame and everything bolts to it".

just thought it would've been a cool topic  8)

Offline GammaFlat

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2008, 04:24:28 PM »
it made sense up until you said take the motor out... now, why the heck would you need to ride around on a frame w/ wheels and no motor?

its kindof like saying the drywall in a house is a stressed member because it helps to add rigidity to the house... drywall should never be considered a stressed member or used as such.



Frame up a wall and push on the wall before you put drywall on it.  Then put drywall on it and push on it.  ;)  There's quite a large difference. 
K6
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Offline heffay

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2008, 05:48:24 PM »
no sh!t sherlock...

i'm done arguing, i graduated MMI and we discussed engines as stressed members...
i also graduated w/ a design degree from CU and own a remodel biz, so i know what drywall is made for and what it is not.
Today: '73 cb350f, '96 Ducati 900 Supersport
Past Rides: '72 tc125, '94 cbr600f2, '76 rd400, '89 ex500, '93 KTM-125exc, '92 zx7r, '93 Banshee, '83 ATC250R, 77/75 cb400f

Offline rbmgf7

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2008, 06:15:06 PM »
kinda like this bike from satanicmech.'s website


fuzzybutt

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2008, 07:55:26 PM »
kinda like this bike from satanicmech.'s website



that pic gives me major wood

Offline cafe750

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2008, 08:32:51 PM »
it made sense up until you said take the motor out... now, why the heck would you need to ride around on a frame w/ wheels and no motor?

its kindof like saying the drywall in a house is a stressed member because it helps to add rigidity to the house... drywall should never be considered a stressed member or used as such.



Frame up a wall and push on the wall before you put drywall on it.  Then put drywall on it and push on it.  ;)  There's quite a large difference. 

Engineers actually use sheetrock as a structural part of a wall, when they specify a sheetrock or plywood shear wall in a house...but thats a completely different thread... ;)
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martino1972

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2008, 10:24:25 PM »
how the hell did we go from building bikes to building houses so fast,normally that takes 2 pages,you guys are getting impatient.. ;D ;D ;D

i think,long story short... the cb engine is not designed to be used as a stress member of the frame structure,failure of engine cases may occure and while driving to work on a short raked bike,you will come home riding a chopper,with your tongue twisted up in the spokes...


Offline markjenn

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2008, 12:01:35 AM »
i think,long story short... the cb engine is not designed to be used as a stress member of the frame structure...

I don't know the degree to which the CB750 engine adds to the frames rigidity, but I can guarantee you that the frame is less stiff without the engine providing cross bracing, just like the wall is less stiff without the drywall.  By definition this means that the CB750 engine is carrying loads to some degree.  To what degree, I don't precisely know, but if you were to engineer rubber engine mounts for the CB750 such that the engine could no longer carry loads, you'd have to compensate by beefing up the frame.

There have been several motorcycle designs (BMW K100 comes immediately to mind) that were originally designed with solid engine mounts but were later revised to have rubber-mounted engines.  In every case, the frame had to be beefed up to compensate for the engine no longer having to bear loads.

- Mark
« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 12:07:25 AM by markjenn »

martino1972

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2008, 01:32:13 AM »
yes,the engine functions as a cross member.....but you cant use it as a structual part of the frame,like lets say cylinderhead to engine case being the carrying load of the frame..

Offline malcolmgb

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2008, 11:10:09 AM »
not seen Rick Denoon's 400f mentioned http://www.denoonsp.com/serv011.htm is he still a member here?
Malcolm

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sohc4

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2008, 11:34:05 AM »
On any backbone backbone frame (like the one above) the engine acts as a stressed member. When Egli built a frame for a specific Kawa engine which had the engine mounted in rubbers, these rubber mounts on the engine had to be replaced with rigid parts to ensure stiffness of the frame.

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Offline MarshallCS

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2014, 01:19:04 AM »
So what would happen exactly if you beefed up the mounts, and removed the under engine frame tubes between the front and rear mounts?
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Offline strynboen

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2014, 10:00:35 AM »
cb 77 and cbx 1000 are thrue stressed engine used as part of the frame...they dont have tubes down in  front of the engine...the engine makes it aut for a part of the frame..

i have both bikes..they are close in konstruktion...a lot of details in build of the frame...old insparision
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 10:03:19 AM by strynboen »
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2014, 10:17:39 AM »
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
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Offline lucky

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2014, 10:49:42 AM »
The CB750 engine was not designed to be a "stressed member" of the frame.
Matter of fact the CB750 frame is a double loop cradle frame made to not flex and it is easy to work on.

If you want a sport bike with the frame over the top, and the engine hanging down you need to start with an engine that is designed to take those stresses.

The aluminum frame motorcycle with the frame over the top is a nightmare to work on.
It blocks access and some access is gained by removing the gas tank.
Why make it hard on yourself. Use the stock honda frame and have easy access to working on everything on the bike.
Also changing to a mono shock is another bad idea. The frame is only 1/16 inch thick and why would you want to make it harder to work on. The twin shock set up makes it easy to remove one shock at a time if needed, while the other shock holds up the bike.  stresses are evenly distributed on the swing arm so there is no potential twisting on the swing arm.

Yamaha ruined their V-Max with this same idea.
Now the V-Max has a bulky aluminum frame that makes working on the bike difficult and of course the frame has to be bulkier.
If you are going to pay that kind of money ($20,000 plus) why not buy a Ducati and get a real steel tubular light weight frame that will last many years.

The aluminum frame is subject to cracking ,difficult to repair, and  can easily be damaged in a minor accident.





Offline MarshallCS

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2014, 10:49:44 AM »
The cbx1000 looks cool, really shows off the engine!

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Offline strynboen

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2014, 10:55:09 AM »
yes cbx are a nice...there are 4 mounts in the head..who holds oilcooler and engine mounts..and 2 more back  down on the engine

klick on the lower photo to make it bigger...
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 10:57:20 AM by strynboen »
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Offline lucky

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2014, 10:56:07 AM »
The cbx1000 looks cool, really shows off the engine!

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That CBX1000 was designed from the start to accomodate the stresses on the engine.

Offline strynboen

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2014, 11:02:47 AM »
 :)
« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 04:13:52 AM by strynboen »
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Offline MarshallCS

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2014, 11:51:16 PM »
I don't want anyone to think that I'm going to hack apart my bike or anything like that. Most of my questions are curiosity based from an engineering standpoint. It's not about wanting to make this bike something that it isn't by any means. That's just how I learn about different parts of the bike. Sorry if I offended anyone

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Offline Stev-o

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2014, 05:28:13 PM »
:)

Hey strynboen - you jack up CBX under the pipes??
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Offline DavePhipps

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2014, 06:39:45 PM »
Matin Frame


Entire thread of cool frames
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=59806.25
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Offline grcamna2

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2014, 08:17:47 PM »
I had an 86' VFR750F Interceptor w/ the 90 degree V-Four engine,the 1st year VFR sport bike and I removed the engine a few times & it dropped right out the bottom w/ no frame cradling it down below;it was definitely a stressed member of the Aluminum box section frame.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2014, 09:36:57 PM »
Here's some insight for the CB750:
The rear of the engine is the 'box' for the frame. There are 3 major bolts there: the upper engine bolt, the lower engine/footpegs rod, and the swingarm bolt. These 3 must be tightened first when assembling the 'system'. It causes the middle uprights of the frame to twist inward, rigidizing the whole middle of the bike. Then the lower and front bolts of the engine get tightened, and the engine stays perfectly square. If the front bolts are tightened first, the rear wheel can end up off-center ever so slightly, as the swingarm's pivot is not square to the frame. This will be felt in the bike as a push-back in the right-hand grip when you are riding.

The engine cases twist a lot during hard runs. So much so, that if you have a post-1972 750 with the dual-row output bearing on the final drive, and it is not well-worn in, it loses a couple of HP to binding in the lower gears at a hard run. This is why the single-row final drive was/is coveted by the drag racers and roadracers. In most of these engines, they don't run as easily under hard push until they have enough miles on them to not bind the transmission bearings under all this twist: the so-called "high-speed" ball bearings on one side of the tranny shafts were/are used to reduce this bind under power: they are nothing more than bearings with one less ball than normal, and with .0003"-.0005" more inner race clearance. Once these bearings wear in well, they last for a very long time because they don't support much load, they just hold the alignments "like a willow tree".

You can 'see' these flexes even by hand when you have the cases apart: set a dial indicator to the left front corner of the lower case with it clamped ell to a mill, then press the right rear corner with your thumb, hard. You will see the distortion show up, every time! This makes it real tricky to align-bore the main crank bearings, and it explains perfectly why the bearings virtually stop wearing after they reach "normalization", somewhere around .0016" clearance, typically. When they have worn enough to let the cases flex around the crank (which DOESN'T flex much), there is enough support for the whole system.

The 750 also has a small cylinder base-to-height ratio that would not seal well if the cylinders were stressed as in the CB/CL Hawk series bikes, or the CBX. There would have to be additional seals added at the base to contain the oil, although this could be done. If you've ever built a SuperHawk engine, you know just how hard it is to separate those cylinders from the case, and how easy it is to have them leak if you don't torque it all back together just right. That section of those engines is heavily overbuilt, to create the missing downtube of those frames.  ;)
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Offline grcamna2

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2014, 07:38:13 AM »
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline MJL

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2014, 03:44:50 PM »
kinda like this bike from satanicmech.'s website



that pic gives me major wood
You should look up some Georges Martin frames, you may just mess your pants.

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Offline lucky

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2014, 03:47:37 PM »

Offline MJL

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2014, 03:50:24 PM »
Here's some of those pics I saved. I want to know what is under the tank.





I think that if the frame is designed right it won't stress the engine much if at all, but I'm not an engineer, so who knows.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2014, 03:52:53 PM by MJL »
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Offline MarshallCS

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #35 on: June 09, 2014, 03:17:15 AM »
THose are some amazing frames.


And thank you hondaman for your very detailed and concise answer!
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Offline grcamna2

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #36 on: June 09, 2014, 06:34:58 AM »
Those nice custom frames pictured Matin or Martin ? I like'em !
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline strynboen

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Re: Engine as partial stress member
« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2014, 10:14:37 AM »
:)
hey steve....
not only jack....senterstand are on...it only for it not tip;;ing forvard
« Last Edit: June 09, 2014, 10:18:27 AM by strynboen »
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