Author Topic: Who is the Norton xpurt?  (Read 5312 times)

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Offline Artfrombama

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Who is the Norton xpurt?
« on: December 18, 2008, 04:05:41 PM »
I've run across another non-running project for sale. 74 Commando. This would be a keeper!

Price seemed a little steep but I know nothing about Nortons.

I would like to PM with someone that knows about the market for these bikes.
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Who is the Norton xpurt?
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2008, 04:10:18 PM »
Hey Art, them things vibrate worst than a Harley :D :D :D :D

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Offline gerhed

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Re: Who is the Norton xpurt?
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2008, 04:12:17 PM »
I thought they had iconoclastic engine mounts ?
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Offline Geeto67

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Re: Who is the Norton xpurt?
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2008, 04:27:36 PM »
What do you want to know?

I am not expert but I am in the middle of a 1972 Dunstall Norton commando restoration and have a head start on the research.

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Offline nickjtc

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Re: Who is the Norton xpurt?
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2008, 04:29:04 PM »
I thought they had iconoclastic engine mounts ?

Isolastic, aka 'knicker elastic'. They were the first to make active use of rubber mountings for the engine....the theory being that if you cannot afford to develope a smoother engine you can at least save the rider from losing his or her fillings!
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Offline gerhed

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Re: Who is the Norton xpurt?
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2008, 04:36:21 PM »
Nothing smooth about my '67 650 Triumph, but who cares ?
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Offline mrbreeze

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Re: Who is the Norton xpurt?
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2008, 09:49:45 PM »
I've run across another non-running project for sale. 74 Commando. This would be a keeper!

Price seemed a little steep but I know nothing about Nortons.

I would like to PM with someone that knows about the market for these bikes.
I don't know about them either but I love them. Of all the old Brit bikes....Norton has always been my favorite.I rode an 850 Commando once many moons ago as well as a coupla Trumps. I never had a chance to ride a Beezer but knew a few people that had them.
So how much was "a little steep" for a non-runner??
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Offline seaweb11

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Re: Who is the Norton xpurt?
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2008, 10:50:06 PM »
now that would depend on how deep your pockets are ;) ;D

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Re: Who is the Norton xpurt?
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2008, 05:33:00 AM »
  No expert here but happened to come across this last night while reading about oil.
 "PolyEster (RedLine) oils have by far the best performance in extreme high temperatures, and are the preferred oil in old "air- cooled" Nortons. I put "air-cooled" in parenthesis as one could also call these engines "prayer- cooled." The Norton 750 commando will destroy a Group I oil fill in 75 miles on a 100 degree day. No kidding. The Brits really did not understand until about 1990 that some of us live in places where the temperatures get over 80 degrees and cities are more than 10 miles apart. If you love those old British twins, you need to find a good supply for RedLine oil."
http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html

Offline bryanj

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Re: Who is the Norton xpurt?
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2008, 05:56:52 AM »
OK,
Bad points
Eat expensive main bearings
short bore/piston life
more finiky than Hondas on ignition timing
valve guides wear
rocker pivot spindles wear
#$%* to rebuild with the pushrods
If it dont leak oil its got none in it
exhausts and holding threads go west regularly
St Joseph Lucas (nuff said!)
clutches
gearbox bearings
Isocraptic adjustment
brakes sieze up for a pastime

Good Points
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

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Offline Geeto67

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Re: Who is the Norton xpurt?
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2008, 07:43:17 AM »
  No expert here but happened to come across this last night while reading about oil.
 "PolyEster (RedLine) oils have by far the best performance in extreme high temperatures, and are the preferred oil in old "air- cooled" Nortons. I put "air-cooled" in parenthesis as one could also call these engines "prayer- cooled." The Norton 750 commando will destroy a Group I oil fill in 75 miles on a 100 degree day. No kidding. The Brits really did not understand until about 1990 that some of us live in places where the temperatures get over 80 degrees and cities are more than 10 miles apart. If you love those old British twins, you need to find a good supply for RedLine oil."
http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html

the combat engines were the ones that had lower end bearing and oiling problems. Combat engines were higher performance engines than your standard 750 and ran higher compressions and tighter tolerances, which when you combine them with soft roller main bearings is a recipe for disaster. The combat engines would actually flex the crank at the upper rpm ranges due to the higher compression and this would wear out the crank bearings (and occasionally caused crank failure). If you did not beat the engines you could get resaonably high mileage (even by honda standards) out of these engines, but when you beat them they die hard quick deaths.  Additionally the stock roller bearings like high sulfur oils as it causes them to last longer by holding more lubricants in the bearings at higher rpms. Additionally the shape of the roller would push oil away from the surface creating points of pressure when the crank was flexing which is where oiling became an issue and the bearing surfaces would score. Non-combat nortons were only slightly more durable as the engines did not have the higher compression so flexed the cranks less. Theri failure is less temprature related as it is materials related, although higher temps would exacerbate the already existing flaws. Really a lot of the issues that people say about nortons are reputation fallout from the "Fragile" 72-73 combat models. Yes they have their issues but if you don't beat them they last. I had a 1972 commando back in the early 1990s and the only problems I had were electrical, mechanically the norton was pretty tough. I had a friend who rode a 1970 commando for over 20 years without a rebuild or major hassle but he was the original owner (too bad he traded it for a sportster three years ago).

 Most rebuilt nortons use "superblend" bearings, this is a norton term for the bearing, which are Cylindrical Roller Bearings with a double lipped outer race, single lipped inner race, preferably brass caged, although polyamide cages are becoming more frequent. they have a very slight barrel shape to them. These were installed in nortons post 1972 (I think) so the later ones have a more bulletproof engine than earlier more fragile models.

another problem was that the 1972-73 engines would wet sump at high rpms and cause pressure loss. this was corrected with the 850 engines and you can mod the 750 engines to not have this problem by plugging up the oil scavenge hole in the 750 cases.

commandos make between 65-69 hp depending on model and state of tune. Not a lot until you consider the bikes wet weight is 380 lbs (that is japanese two stroke territory in terms of weight). That is roughtly 5 lbs per hp the bike is carrying, vs our cb750s which lets just say for arguments sake make 68hp and weigh an even 500 lbs, carry about 7 lbs per hp. The three fastest bikes in 1969 were the harley sportster, the norton commando and the cb750 (all held the fastest bike spot depending on what moth it was since they all had different introduction dates), that is pretty good company to keep.

BTW, people built tritons not because the triumph motor is faster, it is because it is more durable.

If the cases are assembled properly the engines themselves do not leak oil. from the bottom end (all bikes leak from the base and head gaskets eventually including our beloved CBs). The biggest leaks come from the tranny which has to seperate places where they use an o-ring where a dedicated seal should have been used. one is behind the clutch which leaks through the primary and makes it look like the engine is leaking, the other is the shift shaft. There are companies out there who can modify your cases to take real seals and this makes them fairly oil tight.

A norton commando has alot of positive points (contrary to bryanj's post) but daily use is not one of them. when I had my 1972 I swore up and down that I would never own another brit bike because the lucas electronics failed me a lot. I even gave up motorcycles for 4 years. But I used that bike as my main means of transportation. Now I have a cb750 and I use that as my daily ride, when the white stuff does not fall from the sky, and I like it. Not because it is a better pleasure motorcycle because it is not, but because it is way more durable. The things I do the my cb750 I could not get away with on a brit bike without the expectation of walking home, but few of those are speed or handeling related. Now that I have the cb it is nice to own another norton again as a pleasure motorcycle because I don't have to rely on it to start in 18 degree wheather in a slight rain (though it could do it). Now that they have japanese electronic kits for the nortons and you can rebuild them to more durable specs you probably can use them as a daily rider with japanese reliability, but the advantage of the honda is it is ready to use out of the box and cheap to replace should you prang it.
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Offline Geeto67

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Re: Who is the Norton xpurt?
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2008, 08:35:32 AM »
OK,
Bad points
Eat expensive main bearings
short bore/piston life
more finiky than Hondas on ignition timing
valve guides wear
rocker pivot spindles wear
#$%* to rebuild with the pushrods
If it dont leak oil its got none in it
exhausts and holding threads go west regularly
St Joseph Lucas (nuff said!)
clutches
gearbox bearings
Isocraptic adjustment
brakes sieze up for a pastime

Good Points
- One of the best handling bikes of the 1960's-70's bikes (second if not equal to ducati's 750 supersport). Low center of mass.

- Light weight strong frame designed by Rex McCandless. many of the elements on the norton frames and other Rex McCandless designs found their way onto the tz750 racebikes and then into production performance motorcycles.

- Isolastic system, espically on the later models with adjustablility, leaps and bounds better than other bikes rubbermounting systems.

- Excellent forks - norton roadholder forks are one of the best vintage forks there is.

- Continued seperate engine case tranny construction which means you can service the gear box and primary without splitting the engine cases.

- Excellent aftermarket. Far and away better than the jap bikes and pretty close to the level of harleys. You can buy whole repro norton factory style frames. Yes spares are kind of expensive but you can pretty much build a norton out of a set of bare engine cases and a frame plate with title. Japanese electronics with better metalurgy has made updated models the bikes the brits should have built when the japs came a knocking.

- they look cooler than most 70's bikes (including those botched frame design OIF early 70's triumphs), but that is just a matter of taste.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 08:37:24 AM by Geeto67 »
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Offline Artfrombama

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Re: Who is the Norton xpurt?
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2008, 09:13:37 AM »
loads of appreciated feedback (good and bad). Keep it coming.
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Offline nickjtc

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Re: Who is the Norton xpurt?
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2008, 11:20:22 AM »
Sorry to sound like a bit of an 'anorak' here, especially in the light of all of the good observations already posted.

The frame for the Commando was a new design (not the 'featherbed' designed by Rex McCandless) developed by Dr. Stefan Bauer (who was poached from Rolls Royce, apparently) and made viable by Bernard Hooper and Bob Trigg.

The Commando as introduced was only going to be a stop-gap model to earn a bit of capital so that Norton (aka Manganese Bronze) could work on more modern engine designs, as BSA/Triumph already were. Unfortunately a huge fly-in-the-ointment appeared in the form of those pesky Japanese and their ground breaking new bikes. Yes, the Japanese could not match the Brits for handling, but who cared when a rider could jump on a bike, push a button and scare the cr@p out of themselves with waaaay too much power. And having to do minimal maintenance as upkeep.

There are now so many 'upgrades' available for the Commando (Japanese carb conversions, electronic ignition, solid state electrics etc) that there is no reason why, with a bit of effort and outlay, one could not be made into a daily rider. And as already mentioned, every single part for the bike is still available as NOS.

The smart owner of an earlier model retrofits the spin-on oil filter kit from the later models. When I got my Commando I asked 'them that know' about the reality of our high 30's (c) summers and what I should do about oil or what-not. They made no suggestions for anything other than the 'standard' oils so I'll have to look into the specialty oils mentioned above.

And as to the fragility of the bike: in the early '70s a couple of guys rode from Vancouver BC down to Tierra del Fuego and then back to Brazil on a pair of Commandos with no more 'issues' than Ewan and Charlie had on their BMWs. An instructor colleague still has the Commando he bought new in 1974, with 250,000 miles under its wheels. The engine has been rebuilt twice.

The best things about Commando ownership? The aforesaid plentitude of spares, upgrades and technical advice. The fact that in their total production run over 10 years there were only about 60,000 made. The fact that they may no longer be the fastest thing on two wheels, but that doesn't matter because you have to allow twice as long to reach your destination anyway because everywhere you stop people want to come up and talk about the bike.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 11:24:50 AM by nickjtc »
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Offline mrbreeze

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Re: Who is the Norton xpurt?
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2008, 09:40:50 PM »
Sorry to sound like a bit of an 'anorak' here, especially in the light of all of the good observations already posted.

The frame for the Commando was a new design (not the 'featherbed' designed by Rex McCandless) developed by Dr. Stefan Bauer (who was poached from Rolls Royce, apparently) and made viable by Bernard Hooper and Bob Trigg.

The Commando as introduced was only going to be a stop-gap model to earn a bit of capital so that Norton (aka Manganese Bronze) could work on more modern engine designs, as BSA/Triumph already were. Unfortunately a huge fly-in-the-ointment appeared in the form of those pesky Japanese and their ground breaking new bikes. Yes, the Japanese could not match the Brits for handling, but who cared when a rider could jump on a bike, push a button and scare the cr@p out of themselves with waaaay too much power. And having to do minimal maintenance as upkeep.

There are now so many 'upgrades' available for the Commando (Japanese carb conversions, electronic ignition, solid state electrics etc) that there is no reason why, with a bit of effort and outlay, one could not be made into a daily rider. And as already mentioned, every single part for the bike is still available as NOS.

The smart owner of an earlier model retrofits the spin-on oil filter kit from the later models. When I got my Commando I asked 'them that know' about the reality of our high 30's (c) summers and what I should do about oil or what-not. They made no suggestions for anything other than the 'standard' oils so I'll have to look into the specialty oils mentioned above.

And as to the fragility of the bike: in the early '70s a couple of guys rode from Vancouver BC down to Tierra del Fuego and then back to Brazil on a pair of Commandos with no more 'issues' than Ewan and Charlie had on their BMWs. An instructor colleague still has the Commando he bought new in 1974, with 250,000 miles under its wheels. The engine has been rebuilt twice.

The best things about Commando ownership? The aforesaid plentitude of spares, upgrades and technical advice. The fact that in their total production run over 10 years there were only about 60,000 made. The fact that they may no longer be the fastest thing on two wheels, but that doesn't matter because you have to allow twice as long to reach your destination anyway because everywhere you stop people want to come up and talk about the bike.
Good info Nick and I agree about the people talking to you. That is the coolest thing about old bikes.They may not cost the most or have the highest HP or the most chrome.I dig pulling up somewhere when I'm riding with Harleys or crotch rockets and people start milling around my bike(happens just about everywhere I go). It would be the same pulling up on any old brit bike but I think the Norton would be the one for me.
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Offline bryanj

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Re: Who is the Norton xpurt?
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2008, 09:42:50 AM »
Al lthe points i made were from memory of working in a dealersship that sold "Meriden" Triumphs, as the output was called after the workers took over; and the 750/850 Nortons up to and including the last 850's. All those problems were fairly common under warantee and nobody on the sp[anners that i knew enjoyed riding one!

Nowadays most problems are solvable with new aftermarket bits and most bikes will not do a "High" or abused mileage so, in theory, should last well plus have a good "grin" factor and "talk" factor. All i can say is I wouldnt have one even now
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Offline feliz

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Re: Who is the Norton xpurt?
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2008, 03:28:02 PM »
I was never so glad to get rid of any bike as I was my 71 Commando. If I had a dollar for every hour I spent kick starting that thing along some road I would be rich. Can you believe a 71 bike coming from the factory with no oil filter, turn signals, starter, rear view mirrors, kill switch...want me to go on. Then again, I've never missed any bike as much.



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Offline nickjtc

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Re: Who is the Norton xpurt?
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2008, 11:15:27 AM »
Can you believe a 71 bike coming from the factory with no oil filter, turn signals, starter, rear view mirrors, kill switch...

But that's why we ride the sohcs. ;)
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Offline Hush

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Re: Who is the Norton xpurt?
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2008, 01:17:51 PM »
I thought my brother-in-law Don was?
He rebuilt his 1926 Norton from a bare frame he was given.
He still makes $$ creating Norton gas caps for the guys in the US who are rebuilding these old girls.
The only dealings I have with Nortons has been being chased by a matching pair of them around the streets of Palmerston North ha ha.....my Suzuki T350 was way faster and more maneuverable than them but the two cops had a much better knowledge of the streets and they cut me off ha ha. ;D......they were so impressed with the chase that all they did was check my licence and the bikes WOF before letting me go with a warning. ;D.......ah the good old days when cops had discretion and no quotas to fill.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2008, 01:20:33 PM by Hush »
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline Artfrombama

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Re: Who is the Norton xpurt?
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2008, 02:06:05 PM »

Awesome!
Looks like the seller and myself can't come to an agreement on a price. Unfortunately the seller has set a lofty price based on restored eBay bikes, I will not pay.
Will be on the lookout for another!
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Offline feliz

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Re: Who is the Norton xpurt?
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2009, 11:20:37 AM »
Cactus Flat, now that's a cool picture.

Some of the aluminum castings on the Norton are something to behold, the front drum brake on the early Commandos being one example.

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