Topic: Labor Unions

[Frankenkit]

In other threads we've gone into how Harley is struggling, GM and other American businesses are struggling, everyone wants to find reasons everywhere we look.  I think America in particular struggles with work ethic, especially this most recent generation. 

I know one can't point at unions directly as a singular source of blame but I do have to take issue with some of what I've seen where I work.  I have held several jobs already, mostly before deciding to go to school.  Where I work now, however, is a union place with mandatory union membership and dues for full time employees.

 In my department, the union employees start out making $2/hr more than students, get representation within the union, have to be reprimanded several, several times to be fired... and they tend to be the worst slackers because it's practically impossible to fire them.  The students start marginally above minimum wage (and after min. wage goes up, we will need to be raised to match it) and we never get pay increases, throughout the time we work there.  It's exponentially easier to fire students, and that is no secret. 

The 'balancing' factor is that students will, hopefully, within 3-4 years have graduated and will be making $20+... as well as the fact that our employer is willing to be very flexible with our schedules, enabling us to work around our classes.  Still, I see the full-time, union workers' work ethic wane as time goes on.

I know unions were instrumental in the 60s and 70s in the equality and safety fronts, and people have a much better work life due to their work... but I can't shake the feeling that these days, if management was able to do their job fairly while still favoring work ethic and quality over seniority, we would see a positive change in the labor industry today. 

With all that said, I guess I'm looking to start a discussion, to see others' views.  I have a feeling we might see big changes in the world, due to economics and politics, changes that will meet us right at home. 

[super pasty white guy]

Never been in a union, but I feel that their impact has been mixed.

But the key statement in your post was "if management was able to do their job fairly while still favoring work ethic and quality over seniority, we would see a positive change in the labor industry today. "

Unfortunately, in large companies especially, management is working for the stockholders and fair rarely plays into the equation. 

I think that unions got a bit too strong and we're seeing the effects of that in the non-competiveness of American industry.  But the worker does need some power to counter the results of pure capitalism.

My thoughts anyway..


spwg

[my78k]

I have been on all sides of the spectrum....I have been employed in numerous non-unionized environments, been a member of the union currently management at a large telecommunications company.

All I can say is that unions have their place but don't always know their correct limitations. One thing to remember about Unions is the greater the membership and the dues rates the more they make (and most have full time employees paid by the Union members). This poses an interesting situation when companies need to effectively cut pay or downsize. The Unions are hurt by it and therefore all too often are too inflexible and due to the lack of ability to change the entire company can falter (i.e. Air canada Pilots union).

Sure they have some members that will hide and abuse the system...but I like to think that more of them are hard working and care about their employers (just like us management scum actually care about our techs!).

Oh and by the way....you wanna talk about hard to fire? I know of several people who have stolen form the company, been fired and got their jobs back by arbitrators...

Dennis

[1timduke]

    I worked through the Ironworkers Union in Georgia for seven years.  Through those years I observed many (the vast majority) of my Brothers working their butts off to compete in an increasingly competitive market.   However, there were a handful of members that were the classic 'bad apples'.   Drunks, misfits, and thieves, these seemed to be what many folks pictured as the typical Union Member.   
   My family had several prejudices against Unions for their own reasons, mostly what they saw on the news.   It took a long time for them to really accept that I belonged to a Union and they would just have to deal with it.
   Organized Labor has made great strides through history, and continue to represent workers, assuring a livable wage and benefits for many working class folks and their families.   I've worked non-Union as well and realized that in similar trades there are indeed differences in the way men are treated by employers.   
   I know this is only one man's perspective, and it may change with time.   And if it's of any value, when I ran work in Atlanta and was in charge of the hiring and firing of men, I made a promise that I would never lay a man off that needed to be fired.   And I fired plenty of 'em, sent 'em all back to the Hall with a 'NOT FOR RE-HIRE' notice.   
   As far as work ethic, Kit, I don't think the big problem is Labor or Non-Labor, it's just the folks in charge don't have any balls!

My .02

-Tim

   

[oldbiker]

Unions have their place to prevent victimisation of the individual because some boss doesn't like the colour of his eyes or whatever. They are also useful in negotiating for the mass and stopping someone being favoured or paid more (because she's pretty or works late for the boss)    BUT

The moment that pay demands get out of hand they can destroy an industry very quickly. (the majority of big industry in Great Britain has been lost because pay demands meant that the industry became unprofitable.)

I have worked and I have employed and I don't believe that any employer lays off or fires a worker from whom he is making a profit.

[Freaky1]

I have worked union and non union jobs in construction, industry, and trucking and I agree with a lot of everyone has said. There was a time when unions saved the working man and were there for the working man. My78K hit the nail on the head with the statement about unions not being fond of downsizing. I saw where a union was trying to recruit hotel workers in Vegas who were illegals. Now without getting into a big debate about that, I was always told that unions were for the protection of US jobs and workers. All that shows me is that those unions were looking for new blood, new funds, anybodies funds. It looks to me like some of the unions, in this country anyway, have gotten too fat and bloated much like the companies themselves.
The last union job I had was with a hazardous materials company as a truck driver and the other drivers who had been union for years were the best bunch of guys I have ever worked with. They were committed to the job and were willing to go the extra mile to make sure the job got done. There were other locations in the same company that were nonunion and the way the company treated them was just downright wrong. The company came down with a 150% increase in their employee cost for health insurance and started forcing people to change their hours of work with no regard for their seniority.
My point is that unions may have grown into their own worst enemy but without them, especially in the world today, workers would just become pieces of meat again all in the name of saving a buck. People always jump on the unions as the reason some companies are doing so bad, but just look at how bloated and "high on the hog" those at the top have been living, it all needs to change.
The state of some companies require everyone to change their way of doing business and the first ones to get pinched are the workers, which is why unions are needed. They need to truly represent and protect the worker, not only to get the best for the best, but make sure they don't distroy the company in the process.

[Demon67]

You know I shouldn't pop off since I'm retired, but I to worked all my life for union, non union, self employed, in the military and when I got out, I thought finally I'll get to work for some one that can do it right, which shows you what an idealistic young fool I was, most of what I saw was groups of people lurching from disaster to dissolution for a variety of reasons ( I, We've arrived now, no sweat any more, to why listen to new ideas they can't possibly have any thing of value to say they are not management ) and the military began to look good in retrospect, I think if you have a good leader or leadership group and they communicate to the workers effectively and the workers have a clue whats expected of them you'll have a world beater company, unit whatever whether it's unionized non unionized, military, civilian or your own business, it boils down to leadership and I mean real leadership not the crap they spout to day, I going to ramble on when I first joined my sqdn our CO was such that he knew everyone in the outfit and strengths weaknesses whether personally or through his senior NCO's and when something was required of us he would explain it so that everyone knew and when we went the extra mile he would thank us with a perk of some sort, if we screwed up he would explain where we had screwed up and how were we going to fix it as a group or individually. So consistently every one in the squadron felt they were in the loop and their efforts counted to point where when someone was screwing up like as not one of their mates would take hand rather than higher authority.When you talked to the man you got the feeling that because you were part of the squadron you counted whether you were a lowly AC1 or a Squadron Leader, anyhow looking back on those times I began to realize what a well run group could be like, productive, together, and on the leading edge and it boiled down to leadership (when he left the squadron began to go downhill). So leadership, leadership, leadership, whether it's for profit or not and what has been lacking in any of the big companies company is that, they don't don't know their people, their markets and they are more interested in their own bottom line. Enough raving.
Bill the demon

[tramp]

been in the union for 30yrs got to agree with alot of what's been said
are there slackers? yes , but a small amount, most work as hard as everyone else
safety is a big thing because most companies that do alot of manual labor want to get the job done as cheap as possible not as safe as possible
and if you point out a safety factor that might cost thousands of dollars to correct you will be pointed out and you will need the union to help that what ever needs to be done for safeties sake will be done

[toycollector10]

I've been a union represtentative at times during my 37 years of employment. I've always been in the union.

If any individual thinks it's in his or her best interests to shun organised labour they can reap their own rewards. They can go head to toe with their employer, on their own, without any assistance from anyone except their wife or mate's mate who might be a lawyer or who might know sometihing about industrial law. Or not.

[Industrial Rat400f Killer]

I personally think part of it is that the last few generations of tradespeople just don't have the same work ethics that their ancestors had. I'm 35 and I've noticed most of the people older than me have better work ethics than people younger than me. Maybe it's something you grow into but it's hard for me to imagine some of the people I know ever changing.
I worked in cabinet shops and for general contractors non-union from the ages of 15-25, I worked in the carpenters union from ages 26-31 and I've been self employed for the last four years.
I personal got the best treatment and worked with the most work ethic based people while I was in the union.  The pay, benefits and worker/employee relationship were all better in the union. When I was in the union they promoted hard work and good work ethics and talked about how slacking would hurt our employers and cause our job to end. In Seattle 90% of commercial construction is union.
I personally think that the argument that companies could be more competitive if they weren't union is a bunch of BS especially when the amount of wages paid out for 200 laborers is the exact same amount a one CEO makes.
Don't get me wrong their are slackers in the union but isn't there slackers everywhere? Just like there is far right and far left there is hard working and total slacking. I also know unions can cross the line with their motives but all in all I think we need them to keep employers honest.

[Joe Mig]

I'm all for unions and I'm a Teamster as well (Local 282) here in the Big Apple. I worked one year as a non union concrete mixer driver and I was paid half of what I'm paid now after I went into the union.
 As a non union worker I did not get a pension or annuity.
No I'm not over paid and I do work hard for my money that Uncle gets 1/3rd of anyway.
You mention GM I do not think it is the guys in the union that are the problem or are getting paid to much it is the management that are over paid and do not make the rite disions.
What I'm saying is in 2005 I bought a new American car and I had a problem that started around 17000 mi and was back and forth to a few dealers around 12 or 13 times and it was fixed about 14000 mi later. I was not the only person with these problems and I think there should have been a recall . This is not the first time ether I had a problem in 1995 with a new van I bought and learned to live with it pulling to the left after they insist it was in speck. Just to have the motor blow a rod out of the side of the block. After I looked into that I was informed the engine was assembled in Mexico.
  

[BeSeeingYou]

I am in the electrical workers union 292.  Though I am an independent low voltage contractor I have to be in the union to work on the big new commercial construction jobs.  On existing sites it is not an issue.  I install video conference equipment, projection equipment, sound systems, etc.  I see little evidence of slacking behavior on these construction sites as there is a schedule to keep and you don't want to hold up some other trade because you are not done on time.   
The real problem for our domestic companies is the cost of health care.  Many of the countries we compete with have national health care and their companies are not saddled with this huge cost.  Of course our government and it's corporate masters need a scapegoat.  They can't have the people wake up and demand decent affordable health care.  So it's all those damn unions fault and their high wages.  I saw a comparison of average hourly wage at a union auto plant and one the was non-union.  The difference was about 3 cents.

[billybobobrain]

Unions only protect bad employee's I'm against them entirely.

[Caaveman82]

All the points brought up are completely valid.

Unions, much like many other things in our "free market" are a double edge sword. Yes they keep the employers in check as far as fair treatment goes, but they start getting grabby and make themselves look like the butt heads, no one else. The whole thing with unions and health care is, a dollar spent in health care is a dollar, a dollar in wages is considerably less. Which is why the unions really started to come about in the first place. Now however... the whole thing is a damn mess. Say what you will, but corporate America has lost it's mind on both ends. The employer and the employee.

I am not saying unions are bad, nor am I saying they are some great good, what I am saying is both sides need to take a step back and re-evaluate what it is they are after.

Unions only protect bad employee's I'm against them entirely.

Oh yeah, your opinion doesn't count!  I kid, I kid...

[333]

I would remind you all of something I have mentioned in other threads, and that is that it is human nature to primarily remember the negative.  So while it may look like a situation is full of slackers, the hard workers are often overlooked.

Most of us (riders) have experienced this.  At a party of non riders, mention that you ride a motorcycle.  A fellow rider may surface (only 3% of the U.S.population ride), but the rest of the room will have story after story of friends or relatives who have been maimed or killed, or will tell you that all riders are reckless, citing examples of bikes going up the side of the road when traffic is stopped or slow. They will never remember seeing a law abiding cyclist waiting in traffic next to them.  And end up by stating as "fact" that motorcycles are dangerous, and that accident stats prove it.  And the true stats (IIHS) will state that accident rates are a couple 10ths of a percent better than autos.

Now, I realize that it seems like I've gone way off topic, but it does connect.  And at this point I would say that I haven't ever worked in a union situation.  But the program I volunteer for ( see signature below) feeds the carpenters union.  And in all the trips to job sites show nothing but hard workers.  The union stresses things like safety.  And the projects that are union are under time constraints, so slackers are not tolerated.  Several big projects here in Washington D.C. were 80 to 100% union, and while it may have seemed to be behind schedule, they were on time or even ahead.  Some of you may be familiar with our Woodrow Wilson Bridge replacement, or the redesign and expansion of the 95/Beltway interchange that have taken 7 to 8 years.  Exactly what they said it would take.  I actually think that unions made that happen.

So, if we're taking a poll, I say ; Unions- good.

[billybobobrain]

I would remind you all of something I have mentioned in other threads, and that is that it is human nature to primarily remember the negative.  So while it may look like a situation is full of slackers, the hard workers are often overlooked.

Most of us (riders) have experienced this.  At a party of non riders, mention that you ride a motorcycle.  A fellow rider may surface (only 3% of the U.S.population ride), but the rest of the room will have story after story of friends or relatives who have been maimed or killed, or will tell you that all riders are reckless, citing examples of bikes going up the side of the road when traffic is stopped or slow. They will never remember seeing a law abiding cyclist waiting in traffic next to them.  And end up by stating as "fact" that motorcycles are dangerous, and that accident stats prove it.  And the true stats (IIHS) will state that accident rates are a couple 10ths of a percent better than autos.

Now, I realize that it seems like I've gone way off topic, but it does connect.  And at this point I would say that I haven't ever worked in a union situation.  But the program I volunteer for ( see signature below) feeds the carpenters union.  And in all the trips to job sites show nothing but hard workers.  The union stresses things like safety.  And the projects that are union are under time constraints, so slackers are not tolerated.  Several big projects here in Washington D.C. were 80 to 100% union, and while it may have seemed to be behind schedule, they were on time or even ahead.  Some of you may be familiar with our Woodrow Wilson Bridge replacement, or the redesign and expansion of the 95/Beltway interchange that have taken 7 to 8 years.  Exactly what they said it would take.  I actually think that unions made that happen.

So, if we're taking a poll, I say ; Unions- good.

I agree that there are a lot of hard working people in the union, However I don't think those people need the union, in today's day and age if you work hard you have a good job that fits your needs most of the time. What I have against the union is if you have been there the longest but are the laziest you get the good job, that's not right. You also have a harder time getting  rid of the bad employees because the union protects them. This is my opinion.

[Caaveman82]

I would remind you all of something I have mentioned in other threads, and that is that it is human nature to primarily remember the negative.  So while it may look like a situation is full of slackers, the hard workers are often overlooked.

Most of us (riders) have experienced this.  At a party of non riders, mention that you ride a motorcycle.  A fellow rider may surface (only 3% of the U.S.population ride), but the rest of the room will have story after story of friends or relatives who have been maimed or killed, or will tell you that all riders are reckless, citing examples of bikes going up the side of the road when traffic is stopped or slow. They will never remember seeing a law abiding cyclist waiting in traffic next to them.  And end up by stating as "fact" that motorcycles are dangerous, and that accident stats prove it.  And the true stats (IIHS) will state that accident rates are a couple 10ths of a percent better than autos.

Now, I realize that it seems like I've gone way off topic, but it does connect.  And at this point I would say that I haven't ever worked in a union situation.  But the program I volunteer for ( see signature below) feeds the carpenters union.  And in all the trips to job sites show nothing but hard workers.  The union stresses things like safety.  And the projects that are union are under time constraints, so slackers are not tolerated.  Several big projects here in Washington D.C. were 80 to 100% union, and while it may have seemed to be behind schedule, they were on time or even ahead.  Some of you may be familiar with our Woodrow Wilson Bridge replacement, or the redesign and expansion of the 95/Beltway interchange that have taken 7 to 8 years.  Exactly what they said it would take.  I actually think that unions made that happen.

So, if we're taking a poll, I say ; Unions- good.

I agree that there are a lot of hard working people in the union, However I don't think those people need the union, in today's day and age if you work hard you have a good job that fits your needs most of the time. What I have against the union is if you have been there the longest but are the laziest you get the good job, that's not right. You also have a harder time getting  rid of the bad employees because the union protects them. This is my opinion.

That is true and valid, on the other hand though, for every lazy SOB there is a money hungry manager or business owner willing to throw away an employee to make a buck. Look at Best Buy, and this is fact not fiction. Every few years they lay off about five hundred upper management employees. They then hand out small time promotions and wages to those left, then turn around and rehire about 98% of the people they just layed off at a lower wage. That is how they keep wages low in their corporate office, you cannot tell me a union would not be a good idea there?

[billybobobrain]

I would remind you all of something I have mentioned in other threads, and that is that it is human nature to primarily remember the negative.  So while it may look like a situation is full of slackers, the hard workers are often overlooked.

Most of us (riders) have experienced this.  At a party of non riders, mention that you ride a motorcycle.  A fellow rider may surface (only 3% of the U.S.population ride), but the rest of the room will have story after story of friends or relatives who have been maimed or killed, or will tell you that all riders are reckless, citing examples of bikes going up the side of the road when traffic is stopped or slow. They will never remember seeing a law abiding cyclist waiting in traffic next to them.  And end up by stating as "fact" that motorcycles are dangerous, and that accident stats prove it.  And the true stats (IIHS) will state that accident rates are a couple 10ths of a percent better than autos.

Now, I realize that it seems like I've gone way off topic, but it does connect.  And at this point I would say that I haven't ever worked in a union situation.  But the program I volunteer for ( see signature below) feeds the carpenters union.  And in all the trips to job sites show nothing but hard workers.  The union stresses things like safety.  And the projects that are union are under time constraints, so slackers are not tolerated.  Several big projects here in Washington D.C. were 80 to 100% union, and while it may have seemed to be behind schedule, they were on time or even ahead.  Some of you may be familiar with our Woodrow Wilson Bridge replacement, or the redesign and expansion of the 95/Beltway interchange that have taken 7 to 8 years.  Exactly what they said it would take.  I actually think that unions made that happen.

So, if we're taking a poll, I say ; Unions- good.

I agree that there are a lot of hard working people in the union, However I don't think those people need the union, in today's day and age if you work hard you have a good job that fits your needs most of the time. What I have against the union is if you have been there the longest but are the laziest you get the good job, that's not right. You also have a harder time getting  rid of the bad employees because the union protects them. This is my opinion.

That is true and valid, on the other hand though, for every lazy SOB there is a money hungry manager or business owner willing to throw away an employee to make a buck. Look at Best Buy, and this is fact not fiction. Every few years they lay off about five hundred upper management employees. They then hand out small time promotions and wages to those left, then turn around and rehire about 98% of the people they just layed off at a lower wage. That is how they keep wages low in their corporate office, you cannot tell me a union would not be a good idea there?

Yes I agree there are a lot of rat bastard employers out there.

[Joe Mig]

(QUOTE)
I agree that there are a lot of hard working people in the union, However I don't think those people need the union, in today's day and age if you work hard you have a good job that fits your needs most of the time. What I have against the union is if you have been there the longest but are the laziest you get the good job, that's not right. You also have a harder time getting  rid of the bad employees because the union protects them. This is my opinion.
[/quote]

You have not a clue.
With a union you have protection and rights for example ,I have what is considered a shape job that is I go to work Monday through Friday and if the employer does not need me I go home and if he does I go to work for the day.  There are plenty of days when they try to send me home after 6 hr but then I will only get paid for six.  But I stay and do things on the truck I drive to make up my 8 hr that I'm entitled to.
The work day is done by a seniority list M through F and Saturday.
You could thank unions for the 40 hr work week they fought for that cause years ago employers use to work people 50 to 60 hr a week and gave them straight time no over time.

America needs Unions together we stand divided we fall !!!!!
  

[Duke McDukiedook]

I am not in a union myself, never have been (engineer).
The people I have worked with over the years that were in unions were hard-working, dedicated people that had good knowledge and cared about the jobs they performed.
Bad apples exist everywhere you look, union and non-union people that deserve to be fired but don't.
Whether or not you believe in the union cause remember this: odds are you would not be making half the pay you receive if it wasn't for unions, they benefit all of us in the end.
 

[mick750F]

I agree that there are a lot of hard working people in the union, However I don't think those people need the union, in today's day and age if you work hard you have a good job that fits your needs most of the time. What I have against the union is if you have been there the longest but are the laziest you get the good job, that's not right. You also have a harder time getting  rid of the bad employees because the union protects them. This is my opinion.

   You are generalizing unions. Nothing could be further from the truth in the union I joined just last year. Slackers are not appreciated and are the first to be laid off when the time comes. Even though I am new to the union my work ethic and skill level keep me on to the end of the job and places me in a position to be among the first hired for a new job. I've had a union job before...many years ago...and have been self-employed for the past 24 years before last. Though the first union job I had in the 70's would fall under the stereotype that many seem to believe unions are, all unions are not operated in the same manner. Any organized group is far from perfect but they do protect the workers from unscrupulous employers. Even with union protection there are some pretty outrageous time demands in my work, without the union it would be ridiculous.

Mike

[333]

I agree that there are a lot of hard working people in the union, However I don't think those people need the union, in today's day and age if you work hard you have a good job that fits your needs most of the time. What I have against the union is if you have been there the longest but are the laziest you get the good job, that's not right. You also have a harder time getting  rid of the bad employees because the union protects them. This is my opinion.

I think you have that a little backwards.  Unions don't like anyone who makes them look bad.  So the slacker won't get any help from a union.  But much like the saying goes, there are bad apples everywhere, including management.  So you could be the hardest worker there, but if a manager doesn't like you, the only thing that will save you in most cases is a union.  Unfortunately, the slacker gets the same fair shake as anyone else, but will shape up, or move along.  Sure, there are exceptions.  But not as many as you think.

And, of course, not all unions do the best job.  Or in the case of the UAW, too good of a job.  That whole "job bank" thing they negotiated was a real piece of work.  Among other things, it took all the profit out of the making of a car.  The only case I can think of where a union is bad.

[333]

Caaveman- bad example, using Best Buy.  I'd like to see them go bankrupt, right after they pay me the $800. for a TV they sold me that was bad and won't except it back.  Got it home and found the LCD screen cracked, so when I tried to return it the next day, they accused me of breaking it.  In researching them, I found that they are infamous for these and other practices that leave the consumer holding the bag.  Just Google them and any other electronics chain, and you'll see there are no websites dedicated against any of the other chains, but some that are against Best Buy.

Rant over.  We now return you to the regularly scheduled thread, already in progress.

[billybobobrain]

I will say that for a lot of my recent years I have others been elf employees or a business owner, I have always worked very hard long hours without complaint. It may be that I only see the union side of things that get media attention, for example strikes. I have lived in a world were the harder and longer I worked the more money I make and I can't understand why an employee who is getting payed (my opinion) more than they are worth can go on strike for more money and actually have a job when they get back. I paid my employees very well, in return they lied to me and stole from me, complained that they needed more money! We are talking about 30.00+ an hour. It has been my experience that in a union you can make a lot more than that. But in the non union world you can work more hours not get layer off and make just as much if not more.
    Having said all that I think that the union WAS good but just like everything it can be corrupted. The union has been corrupted. Not the people who work in the union, but the organization in the union. Please don't assume that I'm naive, I have looked into unions in the past, I have worked with people in the union, I have close friends and relatives in the union, and I have interviewed people in the union. I will not ever agree withthe union. If you force wage increase you force cost increase, therefore you force price increase, and finally force inflation. Again this is how I see it. My opinion. I mean no disrespect to others especially my friends on this site. Just my opinion.

[mick750F]

   Sorry billybo but once again you are generalizing. You seem to believe that there is ONE union. Perhaps you've had bad dealings with unions in your line of work where you live but try not to paint the rest of the work force with the same brush please.

   You mention your employees trying to screw you over after you treated them so well. I'd suggest that you re-evaluate your hiring/screening process...

   As far as wages go inside or outside the union...I readily made close to twice what I'm making in the union when I was self-employed so in reality I'm underpaid, not overpaid. One beef I do have with the union I'm in is that there is one basic pay scale no matter what your skill level is. The clown working next to me that can barely figure out which end of the tool to hold is getting the same rate as me. THAT I find to be incredibly unfair. I had no benefits and no job security before joining the union and that's just a basic truth about what it's like to be self-employed in the USA. Try collecting unemployment insurance if you're self-employed and don't have any work...it's not happening.

   No disrespect taken, just having a discussion...Mike