Topic: Which hits first, the hammer or the feather?

[DammitDan]

Ha! It was a trick thought question. The high beam on my bike does not work.

Awesome.  Just awesome 

[Markcb750]

If we could teleport an object with the mass of a sun into our galaxy. every body of mass would be influenced by that body of mass immediately, even though we'd have to wait to actually see the object depending on how far away it was.

Thats freakin nuts.

Wow.  I've never thought of that before!

Actually...

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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In the context of classical theories of gravitation, the speed of gravity refers to the speed at which a gravitational field propagates. This is the speed at which changes in the distribution of energy and momentum result in noticeable changes in the gravitational field which they produce.

The speed of gravity, and of all disturbances, is more often called the speed of light c. Within the well accepted theory of special relativity, the parameter c is not about light, it is a unit conversion factor for changing the units of time to the units of space in a Lorentz transformation. It is then also the only speed which does not depend on the motion of the observer, and equals the speed of gravity and of light and of any other massless particle.



this is my understanding of it also...


Just saying

Also G varies with the mas of the object/objects involved.  Big G is often assumed to be earths gravity constant at its surface.  Little g is often assumed to be the gravity of any body, including the moon which is 1/6th that of the earth.


FYI the mass of the moon is approximately 7.347 7 × 10^²² kgs, a hammer is about one kg. The amount the moon travels relative to a hammer is about 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,0000,000 times LESS... the Hammer and the Feather are  insignificant in the equations posted by the chief obfuscatory individual.

[sangyo soichiro]

Also G varies with the mas of the object/objects involved.  Big G is often assumed to be earths gravity constant at its surface.  Little g is often assumed to be the gravity of any body, including the moon which is 1/6th that of the earth.


The amount the moon travels relative to a hammer is about 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,0000,000 times LESS... the Hammer and the Feather are  insignificant in the equations posted by the chief obfuscatory individual.

Hey chieftain,
"100,000,000,000,000,000,000,0000,000 times LESS" is still ≠ 0.

Also, I think you had caps lock on when talking about G vs g.      



Trojan points my butt!   

[mlinder]

If we could teleport an object with the mass of a sun into our galaxy. every body of mass would be influenced by that body of mass immediately, even though we'd have to wait to actually see the object depending on how far away it was.

Thats freakin nuts.

Wow.  I've never thought of that before!

Actually...

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

In the context of classical theories of gravitation, the speed of gravity refers to the speed at which a gravitational field propagates. This is the speed at which changes in the distribution of energy and momentum result in noticeable changes in the gravitational field which they produce.

The speed of gravity, and of all disturbances, is more often called the speed of light c. Within the well accepted theory of special relativity, the parameter c is not about light, it is a unit conversion factor for changing the units of time to the units of space in a Lorentz transformation. It is then also the only speed which does not depend on the motion of the observer, and equals the speed of gravity and of light and of any other massless particle.



this is my understanding of it also...


Just saying

Also G varies with the mas of the object/objects involved.  Big G is often assumed to be earths gravity constant at its surface.  Little g is often assumed to be the gravity of any body, including the moon which is 1/6th that of the earth.


FYI the mass of the moon is approximately 7.347 7 × 10^²² kgs, a hammer is about one kg. The amount the moon travels relative to a hammer is about 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,0000,000 times LESS... the Hammer and the Feather are  insignificant in the equations posted by the chief obfuscatory individual.

In a field equation consistent with special relativity, the attraction is always toward the instantaneous position of the sun, not the extrapolated position.

Unlike everything else...

Maybe I'm stuck in Newtonian physics, I need to go back and read more.

[Markcb750]

Trojan points my butt!   

We are not talking about latex prophylactics...


I am just trying to understand how you expect to verify your thought experiment given that any attempt to verify this fraction of 10^-22 factor in your measuring and that you are not measuring one of the many other factors that affect the time it takes an object to "fall".

please provide us enlightenment.

[sangyo soichiro]

Trojan points my butt!   

We are not talking about latex prophylactics...

Then call them Lagrangian points.   

I am just trying to understand how you expect to verify your thought experiment given that any attempt to verify this fraction of 10^-22 factor in your measuring and that you are not measuring one of the many other factors that affect the time it takes an object to "fall".

please provide us enlightenment.

 


And unless your 10^-22 factor is multiplying zero, then it's still not equal to zero, no matter how much you wish it to be.   

[Markcb750]

OK

They are Lagrangian points...that have Trojan objects in them.


As I said, The point here is to measure in absolute perfection a feather and a hammer falling toward an object 10²² times more massive then either released object.  With this perfect (implied by question) timepiece** we are to "tell" which object hits the moons surface first. 

The point here is you are asking a incomplete question to illicit the answer you want.  You then want to point out how simple it is, how could we all be unable to select the correct answer.  In the end no one who has an atoms worth of experience/teaching/thoughtfulness could select the correct answer because your question is riddled with ambiguities...



Your answer is incomplete, though thoughtful...C or C+



 

[mystic_1]

And unless your 10^-22 factor is multiplying zero, then it's still not equal to zero, no matter how much you wish it to be. 

I tend to agree with Mark and others in that if you want to take such factors into account, then in order to be valid your gedanken experiment  should also be considering other factors that act on a similar scale.

mystic_1

[sangyo soichiro]

Some physicists would say it's not random at all, it's merely an undefined parameter in the equation, making the equation imperfect, not the actual physics.

  True 


Some of which I point out above.   


The original obfuscator  has had issues defining the starting conditions in this simplified nbody problem...

Fun to think about; although I refuse to vote until every parameter of the experiment is established to at least nine decimal place accuracy.

I think the point is to make people think about defining parameters of any given theoretical experiment.

I mean, given the simple terms of this experiment with all else being equal (all-else being a universally static environment, complete vacuum, and since the universe is static otherwise, the 'disappearance' of one object while the other is being droped {which precludes the question of the ACTUAL mass of said objects}) that obviously, the hammer and moon (or other moon-sized body of mass, give or take) would meet before the feather and moon do.

I don't think that's what these exercises are about, which is why I like them. In a PM so sochiro, I stated that once these parameters were defined, the game is no longer fun, because cold math answers said questions without doubt. The joy in these is logically defining what parameters are relevant to obtaining the correct answer.

+1

[Markcb750]

+1 to what?

I stated this previously, if you wanted us to think about a simple two body system in absolute isolation say that in the question.

other wise simply admit every Item I listed has a significant impact on the falling objects, some more then the amount a moon falls toward a feather.  Atoms are larger then the difference you are claiming as your thought experiments "point".

atom about 100 x 10^-12m


10^-22 x moons radius is 17x10⁵ or 10^-17 or 10,000 times less then an atom, give or take a few factors of ten...


Fess up obfuscator or tell us all the hammers and feathers are polished to a surface more perfect then the mirror in a telescope...wish i could polish the aluminum on my forks that well. 

[mlinder]

You should see the forks I polished on the kz440. Absolutely beautiful. Pretty sure I could see far-off celestial bodies reflected in them invisible to the naked eye...

[sangyo soichiro]

MarkCB744,
You do realize that you will not be tested on this...?

I'm not grading, but if I were, I'd grade not on the answer, but on how the problem was treated.  And students that keep complaining about their grade and saying it is unfair are annoying.



And... if you have two real numbers, they are either equal, or one is greater than the other.


Or you could just use a larger hammer, which, oddly, is a solution for a lot of other problems....

[Markcb750]

This is beginning to remind me of the dead parrot sketch on Monty Python. 


I spent hours on my forks, they look great but they are ineffective to observe anything celestial.

[mlinder]

This is beginning to remind me of the dead parrot sketch on Monty Python. 


I spent hours on my forks, they look great but they are ineffective to observe anything celestial.

That's because you are inferior to me in most ways.

[Markcb750]

This is beginning to remind me of the dead parrot sketch on Monty Python. 


I spent hours on my forks, they look great but they are ineffective to observe anything celestial.

That's because you are inferior to me in most ways.

Please clarify your concept of most.

don't you think my forks look good?

[mlinder]

This is beginning to remind me of the dead parrot sketch on Monty Python. 


I spent hours on my forks, they look great but they are ineffective to observe anything celestial.

That's because you are inferior to me in most ways.

Please clarify your concept of most.

don't you think my forks look good?

most is > .5 of Y, Y being "everything".

Sure they look good, but I can see through the space time continuum from the KZ's.

Hope I've cleared this up for you

[Markcb750]

[youtube=425,350]jf8l5Yfj9Jk[/youtube]


a,o who cares?

744 mine's a 736...

[mlinder]

[youtube=425,350]jf8l5Yfj9Jk[/youtube]


a,o who cares?

744 mine's a 736...

What is this equation?

[Markcb750]

It is what comes up on Google when on searches "Teh Horrar"





the second part is a question about "744", me wondering what Mr Honda's  first name is implying by call me 744, I guess I am bugging him, and you, a little. 

Like I said, It's a former Parrot.


Still think my forks look great.   

[sangyo soichiro]

the second part is a question about "744",

MarkCB743,
I've been counting down from 750.  Look back over todays posts.   

[mlinder]

It is what comes up on Google when on searches "Teh Horrar"





the second part is a question about "744", me wondering what Mr Honda's  first name is implying by call me 744, I guess I am bugging him, and you, a little. 

Like I said, It's a former Parrot.


Still think my forks look great.   

O_o

Oh, yeah, I noticed he went from 750, to 749, to 758, etc. Wasn't clear on what that meant.

As a side note, "a,o who cares" did not in fact, show up when I googled "Teh Horrar". Just though I'd mention that

[Markcb750]

soichiro:

sorry subtlety is lost on me.



Do you think that seven posts back you clarified the original question?


I only see a statement that a small number is not zero.  Not an answer or a clarification to a stubborn old engineer.


Mlinder:

Google does not return Horrah, it returns Horror  a funny response to an inquiry,  kind of like being told that greater then 50% is most. And the video is a little funny.

[mlinder]

soichiro:

sorry subtlety is lost on me.



Do you think that seven posts back you clarified the original question?


I only see a statement that a small number is not zero.  Not an answer or a clarification to a stubborn old engineer.


Mlinder:

Google does not return Horrah, it returns Horror  a funny response to an inquiry,  kind of like being told that greater then 50% is most. And the video is a little funny.

Ok, true enough, greater than 50% is actually "more". Quantifying 'most' is kinda difficult though.
The video is broken

[Markcb750]

the darn video works when I click it...

here is the link again.

[burmashave]

Ahem. Mark, I don't think this is so much the Dead Parrot sketch as it is the Anne Elk (Miss.) sketch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAYDiPizDIs