Author Topic: So it's global warming is it ?  (Read 13006 times)

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Offline Gordon

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #75 on: January 13, 2010, 08:40:40 PM »
That's a bad analogy, Gordon.

Not at all.  It's actually a very fitting analogy.  

No, it isn't, Gordon.

The ramifications on governments and cultures and economies worldwide could be grievous if we bow to our green-oligarchy-regime. The steps required to reduce our 'carbon footprint' to, say, half of what they are now, would reduce most of the worlds economies to shambles, people would starve (even more than they do now), jobs would be cut in huge amounts across the world, and a large percentage of the worlds population could be required to farm vegetables (cows cause too much greenhouse gasses, we'd have to get rid of those... no more meat for you!) in order to eat...
This just isn't something that can be forced in a short amount of time without doing, probably, irreparable damage to human society as we know it.

Now, not all of us think that's a terrible idea... but, get ready for the chaos, anarchy, starvation, war, and collapse of our current civilization if you try to force this crap through on an unproven theory pushed forward by aspiring aristocrats that are making serious money off of your feer and guilt about destroying the planet.

Yes, it really is.  Your argument does nothing to show it isn't. 

Offline mlinder

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #76 on: January 13, 2010, 09:40:58 PM »
Quote
Dudes, you need proof to prove something is happening, not proof to prove something is not happening.

Sorry Mlinder i had to spell check that quote, didn't know what a duder was.... ;D

Well all i can say is that there are more scientists saying that there is change or at least something happening so wouldn't that mean that someone else has to disprove this theory if they disagree...?
Its not happening because..............


Mick




Sorry, it''s a personal slang. Duders. Just means "Hey man".

But, no, the argument isn't whether 'climate change' is happening or not. The argument is whether we, as humans, have anything to do with it. This is where the confusion comes from. There is no conclusive proof, whatsoever, that we have anything to do with it. If that is indeed the case, well, instead of write a disertation on it right now, I'll let you think about it.
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Offline mlinder

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #77 on: January 13, 2010, 09:43:58 PM »
That's a bad analogy, Gordon.

Not at all.  It's actually a very fitting analogy.  

No, it isn't, Gordon.

The ramifications on governments and cultures and economies worldwide could be grievous if we bow to our green-oligarchy-regime. The steps required to reduce our 'carbon footprint' to, say, half of what they are now, would reduce most of the worlds economies to shambles, people would starve (even more than they do now), jobs would be cut in huge amounts across the world, and a large percentage of the worlds population could be required to farm vegetables (cows cause too much greenhouse gasses, we'd have to get rid of those... no more meat for you!) in order to eat...
This just isn't something that can be forced in a short amount of time without doing, probably, irreparable damage to human society as we know it.

Now, not all of us think that's a terrible idea... but, get ready for the chaos, anarchy, starvation, war, and collapse of our current civilization if you try to force this crap through on an unproven theory pushed forward by aspiring aristocrats that are making serious money off of your feer and guilt about destroying the planet.

Yes, it really is.  Your argument does nothing to show it isn't. 
Sorry Gordon, hate to be contrary, but you are patently wrong.

There is not one bit of data that shows that we are affecting the current climate change.

There is, however, data that shows the damages that could be done to societies across the planet by being forced to reduce 'greeenhouse gas' emisions by 50 to 60% in a very relatively short period of time.
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Offline coldright

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #78 on: January 13, 2010, 09:47:02 PM »
I think Indonesia has a good soluton for carbon sinking...

Starting in 2009 on Java in Indonesia, each newlywed couple is to plant 10 trees, while each divorced couple is to plant 50 trees in order to combat deforestation on Java.

Offline mlinder

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #79 on: January 13, 2010, 09:47:54 PM »
Okay, I'm not sure what topic we're covering here anymore. Is it the fact that climate is changing, or is it the fact we are responsible for it?
exactly.
Quote
Wasn't there an ice age centuries ago? Doesn't that mean the planet has been warming by itself ever since? Suddenly are we to believe that it's CO2 is the culprit? Don't get me wrong, I fully support recycling & improving efficiency of anything we can to make our planet a cleaner place, but allocating millions of $ to carbon trading only seems to me as a scheme to make money for some very select groups or individuals.
Below is an article doing the rounds on email at present. It has to do with Australia's contribution to the level of CO2. Just my 2c worth. I haven't checked the sums he presents, but I'm sure someone here will check the numbers.

"REAL EMISSIONS DATA FROM RETIRED POWER WORKER.
T.L. Cardwell
I should clarify. I spent 25 years in the Electricity Commission of NSW working, commissioning and operating the various power units. My last was the 4 X 350 MW Munmorah Power Station, near Newcastle. I would be pleased to supply you any information you may require.

I have sat by for a number of years frustrated at the rubbish being put forth about carbon dioxide emissions, thermal coal fired power stations and renewable energy and the ridiculous Emissions Trading Scheme. Frustration at the lies told (particularly during the election) about global pollution.

Let me use Power Station cooling towers for an example. The condensation coming from those cooling towers is as pure as what comes out of any kettle.  Frustration about the so called incorrectly named man made 'carbon emissions' (which of course is Carbon Dioxide emissions) and what it is supposedly doing to our planet.  Frustration about the lies told about renewable energy and the deliberate distortion of benefit from renewable energy and its ability to replace fossil fuel energy generation. Frustration at the ridiculous carbon credit programme which is beyond comprehension. But, further frustration at some members of the public who have not got a clue about thermal Power Stations or Renewable Energy, yet who go on quoting ridiculous figures about something which, they clearly have little or no knowledge.

First; coal fired power stations do NOT send 60 to 70% of the energy up the chimney. The boilers of modern power station are 96% efficient and the exhaust heat is captured by the ‘economisers’ and ‘pre-heaters’ which pre-heat the air and water going into the boilers. The very slight amount exiting the stack is moist as in condensation and CO2. There is virtually no fly ash because this is removed by the ‘precipitators’ and/or ‘bagging plant’ which are 99.98% efficient. The 4% heat lost, is through boiler wall convection. Coal fired Power Stations are highly efficient with very little heat loss and can generate massive amount of energy for our needs. They can generate power at an efficiency of less than 10,000 b.t.u. per kilowatt and cost-wise, this is very low. The percentage cost of mining and freight is very low. The total cost of fuel is 8% of total generation cost and does NOT constitute a major production cost.

As for being laughed out of the country, China is building multitudes of coal fired power stations because they are the most efficient for bulk power generation.

We have (like the USA), coal fired power stations because we HAVE the raw materials and are VERY fortunate to have them. Believe me no one is laughing at Australia - exactly the reverse, they are very envious of our raw materials and independence.

The major percentage of power in Europe and U.K. is nuclear because they don't have the coal supply for the future.

Yes it would be very nice to have clean, quiet, cheap energy in bulk supply. Everyone agrees it would be ideal. You don't have to be a genius to work it out. But there is only one problem---It doesn't exist.

Yes - there are wind and solar generators being built all over the world but they only add a small amount to the overall power demand. The maximum size wind generator is 3 Megawatts, which can rarely be attained on a continuous basis because it requires substantial forces of wind and for the same reason, they only generate when there is sufficient wind to drive them. This of course depends where they are located but usually they only run for 45% -65% of the time, mostly well below maximum capacity. They cannot be relied on for a 'base load' because they are too variable and they certainly could not be used for load control.

The peak load demand for electricity in Australia is approximately 50,000 Megawatts and only a small part of this comes from the Snowy Hydro Electric System (The ultimate power Generation) because it is only available when water is there from snow melt or rain. Yes, they can pump it back but it costs to do so. (Long Story).

Tasmania is very fortunate, they have mostly hydro electric generation because of their high amounts of snow and rainfall. They also have wind generators (located in the roaring forties) but these provide only a small amount of total power generated.

Based on an average generating output of 1.5 megawatts (of unreliable power) you would require over 33,300 wind generators. As for solar power generation much research has been done over the decades and there are two types. Solar thermal generation and Solar Electric generation but in each case, they cannot generate large amounts of electricity.

Any clean, cheap energy is obviously welcomed but they would, NEVER have the capability of replacing Thermal power generation. So get your heads out of the clouds, do some basic mathematics and look at the facts not going off with the fairies (or some would say the extreme greenies). We are all greenies in one form or another and care very much about our planet. The difference is, most of us are realistic, not in some idyllic utopia where everything can be made perfect by standing around holding a banner and being a general pain in the backside. Here are some facts which will show how ridiculous this financial madness the government is following is. Do the simple maths and see for yourselves. According to the 'believers' the CO2 in air has risen from .034% to .038% in air over the last 50 years. To put the percentage of Carbon Dioxide in air in a clearer perspective; If you had a room 12 ft x 12 ft x 7 ft or 3.7 mtrs x 3.7 mtrs x 2.1 mtrs, the space which carbon dioxide would occupy in that room would be .25m x .25m x .17m or the size of a large packet of cereal.

Australia emits 1 percent of the world's total carbon Dioxide and the government wants to reduce this by twenty percent or reduce emissions by .2 percent of the world's total CO2 emissions. What effect will this have on existing CO2 levels?

By their own figures they state the CO2 in air has risen from .034% to .038% in 50 years. Assuming this is correct, the world CO2 has increased in 50 years by .004 percent. Per year, which is .004 divided by 50 = .00008 percent. (Getting confusing -but stay with me). Of that, because we only contribute 1%, our emissions would cause CO2 to rise .00008 divided by 100 = .0000008 percent. Of that 1% which we supposedly emit, the governments wants to reduce it by 20%  which is 1/5th of .0000008  = .00000016 percent as the effect per year they would have on the world CO2 emissions based on their own figures. Which would equate to an area in the same room, about the size of a small pin.!!!  For this, they have gone crazy with the ridiculous trading schemes, Solar and roofing insulation, Clean coal technology. Renewable energy, etc, etc.

How ridiculous! The cost to the general public and industry will be enormous. It will cripple and even close some smaller business.

T.L. Cardwell"

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Offline Gordon

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #80 on: January 13, 2010, 09:48:31 PM »
Sorry Gordon, hate to be contrary, but you are patently wrong.


Well, crap...  Now that I'm "patently" wrong, I totally concede to your way of thinking.  


Why didn't you just say so in the first place? :) ;D

Offline mlinder

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #81 on: January 13, 2010, 09:57:17 PM »
Sorry Gordon, hate to be contrary, but you are patently wrong.


Well, crap...  Now that I'm "patently" wrong, I totally concede to your way of thinking.  


Why didn't you just say so in the first place? :) ;D

Well shiot, Gordon, I didnt expect you to roll over so easily. :)
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Offline mlinder

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #82 on: January 13, 2010, 09:58:23 PM »
Heres some fun pictures. Care to point out where the industrial revolution began?

/edit: careful with one of these, if you don't pay attention, you may feel compelled to use them to prove global warming. Do this at your own peril.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 10:03:27 PM by mlinder »
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Offline paulages

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #83 on: January 13, 2010, 11:19:48 PM »
well let me just give you a personal fact here in Floyd county, deforested in the 30's and now a hell of
a lot of forest. Take your pick in the uS and you'll find the same. Trees grow back. Now back to your tree hugging.

ah leive in oreegun. we aint never heard of tree plantashuns in thees parts...

...logging some trees and replanting is not "deforestation." clearing a forest for a soybean field, cattle ranch, or strip mall is.
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Offline paulages

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #84 on: January 13, 2010, 11:33:29 PM »
mark, in regards to the strawman argument... i wasn't trying to infer that human impact on the planet automatically equals human-caused global warming, only that given what data is available, it would not be the least bit surprising for it to be true. my point was that the same things claimed to be causing global warming are causing obvious damage visible with my own eyes.

answer this: if there is some massive conspiracy by the scientific establishment to convince the population and world leaders that we are causing global climate change, who's behind the curtain?
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #85 on: January 14, 2010, 04:30:09 AM »
Ah, scientists. The same guys who told us that if we didn't eat oat bran (remember that?) for breakfast, lunch and dinner we'd all succumb to cancer, and that the world would most probably end in 2000. (Y2K, OK?) It's really no wonder we beat them up when they were just nerdy kids at school..............

I'm sorry, I'm just cranky that I had to mow my lawn..............  :P
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #86 on: January 14, 2010, 05:21:36 AM »
Ah, scientists. The same guys who told us that if we didn't eat oat bran (remember that?) for breakfast, lunch and dinner we'd all succumb to cancer, and that the world would most probably end in 2000. (Y2K, OK?) It's really no wonder we beat them up when they were just nerdy kids at school..............

I'm sorry, I'm just cranky that I had to mow my lawn..............  :P

Yeah bloody parasites that sit in their labs sponging off the government doing nothing practical  ::)


Oh wait....how did western medicine come about? Why is it we are all living longer these days? Oh yeah must be the new snake oil we are all drinking  8)

Pave over your lawn and problem solved - no more mowing  ;D That ones a freebie  8)

cheers
Andy  

Ha ha, I bloody wish I could pave it all Andy, but "her indoors" won't let me. As far as scientists contributing to our living longer, well, I'll concede that for every 10,000 "scientific discoveries" that cost us taxpayers a brazillion dollars each and generally go nowhere, one or two are useful.............  ;D
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #87 on: January 14, 2010, 05:42:39 AM »
mark, in regards to the strawman argument... i wasn't trying to infer that human impact on the planet automatically equals human-caused global warming, only that given what data is available, it would not be the least bit surprising for it to be true.

This is known as a "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" logical fallacy.  You can just as logically say that "global warming" caused industrialization.

my point was that the same things claimed to be causing global warming are causing obvious damage visible with my own eyes.

I guess you can't see any of the positive things that come from industrialization (which does not necessarily cause climate change):
6 billion people being able to eat because they use refrigerants to keep their food fresh?
6 billion people being able to eat because they burn "fossil fuels" to farm and distribute food?
6 billion people being able to use electricity generated in coal plants to earn a living so they can feed themselves and their children?
and on, and on, and on.

It seems like the only answer that makes the "global warming" crowd happy is to eliminate the people, or enslave them into "job programs" that have them digging ditches with spoons and farming with their hands instead of tractors.

answer this: if there is some massive conspiracy by the scientific establishment to convince the population and world leaders that we are causing global climate change, who's behind the curtain?

There is no curtain.  Those who are pretending to help the world are right out there in the open just waiting for the gullible to vote for them.  There is no doubt that the "scientific community" experiences political and financial pressure from the government that influences the content of the papers they publish.
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Offline andy750

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #88 on: January 14, 2010, 05:47:46 AM »
Haha sorry Terry I had deleted that post thinking it was pretty useless but I see you caught it ;-)...just a little morning humour before I get back to my grant writing asking the US government for some money  ;D

cheers
Andy

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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #89 on: January 14, 2010, 05:57:51 AM »
Haha sorry Terry I had deleted that post thinking it was pretty useless but I see you caught it ;-)...just a little morning humour before I get back to my grant writing asking the US government for some money  ;D

cheers
Andy



No worries mate, and while you've got your hand out, I need a new set of pipes for my K0, so can you "pad" that grant application a tad more? ;D
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Offline mlinder

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #90 on: January 14, 2010, 07:14:03 AM »
mark, in regards to the strawman argument... i wasn't trying to infer that human impact on the planet automatically equals human-caused global warming, only that given what data is available, it would not be the least bit surprising for it to be true. my point was that the same things claimed to be causing global warming are causing obvious damage visible with my own eyes.

answer this: if there is some massive conspiracy by the scientific establishment to convince the population and world leaders that we are causing global climate change, who's behind the curtain?

Paul, thats the problem. The data available  in no way shows climate change to be out of the ordinary. Therefore, there can be no data that points to man-made climate change. You can't contribute to a null.
That being said, there are many terrible things that have plenty of good, reliable data that points to them being man-made.
Deforestation, solid waste, toxic waste, pollution, hell, even the poor planning of city lay out which lead to uncomfotable tempurature extremes inside a city that don't exist 3 miles out of town..
Why do we waste our resources on a problem that doesn't really appear to exist?

The answer is the question you asked up there. It's not scientists trying to convince politicians and us that global warming exists, it's politicians trying to get scientists to convince us it exists. It's a scare tactic. Something to be able to use to modify our behaviour, because fear is a powerful tool in behavior modification, and behaviour modification is power. The reason they picked something as nebulous and unprovable as climate change is because they can use something with no defining perameters as long as they want. When you are just making crap up anyway, it's a weapon with no limit on shelf life. If they chose a tangible, measurable subject, once we 'fixed' it, their weapon goes away.

Pretty sure I'm done with this thread, because there are too many tangents, and there's people like Paul that I know personally and am friends with, that I know if we sat down face to face adn talked about it, it would be way easier. There are too many nuances and such to deal with in writing, and no one here can see when I smile or laugh about something, and i sure as hell don't want people to think I'm angry or anythying else negative towards them personally when the frustrations have nothing to do with their beliefs, just with semantics, and the limitations of a message board in conveying ideas as complex and complicated as this one.
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Offline sangyo soichiro

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #91 on: January 14, 2010, 09:59:37 AM »
Ah, scientists. The same guys who told us that if we didn't eat oat bran (remember that?) for breakfast, lunch and dinner we'd all succumb to cancer, and that the world would most probably end in 2000. (Y2K, OK?) It's really no wonder we beat them up when they were just nerdy kids at school..............

I'm sorry, I'm just cranky that I had to mow my lawn..............  :P

I call foul.  The medical community has a more lenient criteria for what constitutes 'statistically significant.'  The idea being that if a new medicine/treatment/warning can help, they'd rather it get to the market quicker, etc.  What ends up happening is a lot of claims turn out to be false upon further research.  In other words, the non-medical research community has to pay for the sins (overzealousness) of the medical community.

And Y2K... I think that was computer nerds (no offense to the IT folks here :)), not "scientists."  And you can always find someone (e.g., the media) trying to make a buck off someone else's fears.  On both sides.

There is no doubt that the "scientific community" experiences political and financial pressure from the government that influences the content of the papers they publish.

I find that pretty tough to believe.  Firstly, let me make it clear that I'm talking about reputable scientific journals.  I agree that any yahoo could publish crap elsewhere... and that's why research scientists, almost exclusively, do not cite stuff from non-refereed journals.

Here is why I think it's unlikely the politicians have much influence:
Most scientific papers are authored by multiple persons in a collaboration.  This helps to work out any possible errors that may have happened in the research.  It also helps in finding the best interpretation of the data.  It is very common that these scientists in collaboration live in different parts of the world.  This makes it a little more difficult for the politicians of one particular country to push their agenda.   When the scientific paper is written, (which should include enough information for anyone else to reproduce the results), it is submitted to an editor of the journal the scientists are trying to publish in.  These journals require that you can only submit your paper to only one journal.  You cannot submit it to 15, play the odds, and hope one accepts it.  Once you have submitted it, the editor gives it to one or more anonymous referees (the authors are not allowed to know the identities of the referees).  A "referee" is another scientist that has expertise in that field of study.  The referee(s) then spend up to a month with the paper nit-picking it apart.  It is then either flat-out rejected, or the referee provides the editor with a laundry list of things that must be addressed by the original authors.  This list includes everything from typos to counter arguments of the results.  The authors must address these issues and return it to the editor who then gives it back to the referee(s) and the process starts anew until the paper is ultimately rejected or accepted.  If rejected, then the authors are free to try another journal, but the process for the other journals is the same, and in fact, it's possible they could even get the same referee (possible, but not probable).  If the paper is accepted, then it's published for the world (not just the U.S.) to see and critique.  If there's an error somewhere, it is likely to be revealed in someone else's paper.  I have personally done this (as a minor part (like a few sentences) of a paper I did) when I pointed out a problem with a calculation of another group's research that had relevance to my research.  In this case, my pointing out their error actually strengthened (not weakened) their results (I solved a problem nagging their research), and it strengthened my results too.  The point is, the papers are out there for the world to see.  And there's never a shortage of people willing to point out any errors.

So... I find it hard to believe that politicians could have such a strong influence over every single person involved to be able to influence the results.  I don't doubt that they try!  But I think the system is such that their efforts are fruitless for the most part.  Of course, I could be wrong, but I personally have never seen any results skewed because of a politician or political influence of any kind.  In fact, of the people I've worked with, I have no idea of what their political affiliation is.  We have never, ever, talked about it.


I'm a physicist at the University of Notre Dame.  Just received my doctorate and was hired on here as faculty.  For what it's worth.
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Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #92 on: January 14, 2010, 10:04:48 AM »
Well I must say congrats Soichiro! I would expect Notre Dame to be a pretty decent gig for you.

Offline mlinder

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #93 on: January 14, 2010, 10:10:23 AM »
Ah, scientists. The same guys who told us that if we didn't eat oat bran (remember that?) for breakfast, lunch and dinner we'd all succumb to cancer, and that the world would most probably end in 2000. (Y2K, OK?) It's really no wonder we beat them up when they were just nerdy kids at school..............

I'm sorry, I'm just cranky that I had to mow my lawn..............  :P

I call foul.  The medical community has a more lenient criteria for what constitutes 'statistically significant.'  The idea being that if a new medicine/treatment/warning can help, they'd rather it get to the market quicker, etc.  What ends up happening is a lot of claims turn out to be false upon further research.  In other words, the non-medical research community has to pay for the sins (overzealousness) of the medical community.

And Y2K... I think that was computer nerds (no offense to the IT folks here :)), not "scientists."  And you can always find someone (e.g., the media) trying to make a buck off someone else's fears.  On both sides.

There is no doubt that the "scientific community" experiences political and financial pressure from the government that influences the content of the papers they publish.

I find that pretty tough to believe.  Firstly, let me make it clear that I'm talking about reputable scientific journals.  I agree that any yahoo could publish crap elsewhere... and that's why research scientists, almost exclusively, do not cite stuff from non-refereed journals.

Here is why I think it's unlikely the politicians have much influence:
Most scientific papers are authored by multiple persons in a collaboration.  This helps to work out any possible errors that may have happened in the research.  It also helps in finding the best interpretation of the data.  It is very common that these scientists in collaboration live in different parts of the world.  This makes it a little more difficult for the politicians of one particular country to push their agenda.   When the scientific paper is written, (which should include enough information for anyone else to reproduce the results), it is submitted to an editor of the journal the scientists are trying to publish in.  These journals require that you can only submit your paper to only one journal.  You cannot submit it to 15, play the odds, and hope one accepts it.  Once you have submitted it, the editor gives it to one or more anonymous referees (the authors are not allowed to know the identities of the referees).  A "referee" is another scientist that has expertise in that field of study.  The referee(s) then spend up to a month with the paper nit-picking it apart.  It is then either flat-out rejected, or the referee provides the editor with a laundry list of things that must be addressed by the original authors.  This list includes everything from typos to counter arguments of the results.  The authors must address these issues and return it to the editor who then gives it back to the referee(s) and the process starts anew until the paper is ultimately rejected or accepted.  If rejected, then the authors are free to try another journal, but the process for the other journals is the same, and in fact, it's possible they could even get the same referee (possible, but not probable).  If the paper is accepted, then it's published for the world (not just the U.S.) to see and critique.  If there's an error somewhere, it is likely to be revealed in someone else's paper.  I have personally done this (as a minor part (like a few sentences) of a paper I did) when I pointed out a problem with a calculation of another group's research that had relevance to my research.  In this case, my pointing out their error actually strengthened (not weakened) their results (I solved a problem nagging their research), and it strengthened my results too.  The point is, the papers are out there for the world to see.  And there's never a shortage of people willing to point out any errors.

So... I find it hard to believe that politicians could have such a strong influence over every single person involved to be able to influence the results.  I don't doubt that they try!  But I think the system is such that their efforts are fruitless for the most part.  Of course, I could be wrong, but I personally have never seen any results skewed because of a politician or political influence of any kind.  In fact, of the people I've worked with, I have no idea of what their political affiliation is.  We have never, ever, talked about it.


I'm a physicist at the University of Notre Dame.  Just received my doctorate and was hired on here as faculty.  For what it's worth.


I'm sorry, Soichiro. This just isn't the way it works. Most groups of scientists being published on these matters (global climate change) are backed financially by one group or another. They are paid to prove something these groups want, whether for or against the idea of human-created-global-climate-change.

/edit: crap, I said I wasn't going to post anymore in this thread.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 10:12:39 AM by mlinder »
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Offline sangyo soichiro

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #94 on: January 14, 2010, 10:11:43 AM »
Thanks Inigo.  It is pretty nice.  I just wish the football team would win a few more.   ;D


By the way, I used to do tool and die.  So I'm still a blue-collar kind of guy at heart.
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Offline andy750

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #95 on: January 14, 2010, 10:27:27 AM »

I'm sorry, Soichiro. This just isn't the way it works. Most groups of scientists being published on these matters (global climate change) are backed financially by one group or another. They are paid to prove something these groups want, whether for or against the idea of human-created-global-climate-change.

/edit: crap, I said I wasn't going to post anymore in this thread.

Hopefully you dont really believe that Mark as its simply not true. Sochiros version is much closer to the truth. 

cheers
Andy


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Offline paulages

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #96 on: January 14, 2010, 10:45:17 AM »
Mark, that's a lot of opinion for someone demanding hard data. Did ed loan you his tin foil hat?  ;)

paul
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Offline mlinder

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #97 on: January 14, 2010, 10:49:02 AM »
Mark, that's a lot of opinion for someone demanding hard data. Did ed loan you his tin foil hat?  ;)



The largest funder of research on global climate change is the US government :(
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #98 on: January 14, 2010, 10:49:50 AM »
Nice try Paul.  So whenever someone disagrees with you, you try to dismiss their arguments rather than address them.  Very transparent and sophomoric.

Mark, that's a lot of opinion for someone demanding hard data. Did ed loan you his tin foil hat?  ;)


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Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #99 on: January 14, 2010, 11:00:34 AM »
That's a funny thing for someone like you to say ed. But I guess if it makes you feel better.