Author Topic: I've got a question about chains (edit: New Pics)  (Read 4317 times)

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Offline Kframe

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I've got a question about chains (edit: New Pics)
« on: January 20, 2010, 03:00:04 PM »
Hi everyone, it's winter here in MN and so most of my free time is spent in the garage crouched down next to the bikes instead of out on the road on the bikes.  
I'm in the process of rehab'ing the '74 CB550 I got this past autumn and it's interesting learning what's similar and what's different from my modern Bonneville.  Pretty soon I'm going to do the fork seals and take a look at the head bearings, but this week I'm thinking about the chain.

The CB has a standard (well used to be standard in those days) roller chain, and if I've read the posts right it's a 530 size.
My bike has about 20 thousand miles on it, and will probably need a new chain soon, and new sprockets as well.

What are the pros and cons I should think about between sticking with the stock setup or going to an O-ring style chain - further, for the average rider is there much advantage to going to a smaller (lighter) size?  I know some of you have done this and I'd be interested in hearing whether you noticed a difference, good or bad.

Now I think I'm going to go out to the garage & slip off the master clip so I can soak the current chain and get off the 36 years of oily gunk!  I should almost take a picture for posterity,  ;)

Thanks, -Kris
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 05:10:40 PM by Kframe »
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Offline YogiBear

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Re: I've got a question about chains
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2010, 03:52:38 PM »
As far as whether or not to switch to an O ring chain, I absolutely recommend it. I went with an O Ring chain on my 81 CB750 and I like it alot. One of the nice things about them is they dont throw chain lube and oil all over the back wheel, etc. I ride mine alot in the dry season and im really pleased with the way the chain contains and holds in the chain lube. They last longer than a standard chain as well. Mine has been on there for two years and its still in great shape. One downside to the O ring chains is they are a little expensive, but its worth it in my opinion. It seems to me that I read on here somewhere about chain guard clearance and an O Ring Chain for the 550s? Dont quote me on that, maybe somebody else will chime in and say for sure.

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Offline Tnutz

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Re: I've got a question about chains
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2010, 04:27:37 PM »
a 500/550 will need a small shim under the front sprocket as the clearance is real tight to the case. So add an oring chain and you get a nice grove in the cases from the link pins.  i run o ring on my 500.  i would try to go 520 conversion if it's not expensive.  Modern chains have come along way in terms of strength.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 04:29:51 PM by Tnutz »
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Offline Kframe

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Re: I've got a question about chains
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2010, 05:16:05 PM »
a 500/550 will need a small shim under the front sprocket as the clearance is real tight to the case. So add an oring chain and you get a nice grove in the cases from the link pins.  i run o ring on my 500.  i would try to go 520 conversion if it's not expensive.  Modern chains have come along way in terms of strength.

So stock size 530 O-ring will have clearance issues, ah, that's good to know!
Is there more to a conversion than just buying new chain and two sprockets, that is, a drop in installation?

Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it.
-K
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Offline Kframe

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Re: I've got a question about chains
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2010, 05:25:08 PM »
I got the old chain off, man, that was easy with that clip-link.
Here's a couple pics I snapped before I put it in a jug of parts cleaner to soak overnight.





Dirty, huh!  But not actually as bad as I first thought, we'll see what it looks like after the soak.

I also took a couple of the sprocket and countersprocket.





How's the wear look to you?  And, are the teeth on the sprocket supposed to have those little notches on the tips?

Thanks again, -K
2007 Triumph Bonneville T100, ARK'd, Pods, TOR's, Napoleon's, Innovate G5 Air/Fuel Gauge, Ignition Relocation by D9, Stebel Nautilus, Avon Roadriders
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Offline Frankenkit

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Re: I've got a question about chains
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2010, 05:35:41 PM »
I'm just posting to watch this because 550s and 500s are pretty close to 650s in a lot of these ways...
Those notches in the teeth are really interesting.  I don't think my sprocket has those notches, but now I almost have to go and look to see. ;)

Just to the lower left of the sprocket, and while you have that cover off, just check your shifter oil seal (if 550s have a press-in one like 650s do?) Mine dripped for quite awhile before actually blowing out, and even though it's a $5 fix, it's worth doing while you've got the cover off to redo the sprockets and chain.   I think Spikeybike (now that's a wild and awesome 550) nipped up a little oil drip on his, too, this way.

FWIW, I went with an o-ring chain, but because my bike wasn't really running when I replaced the old, shot chain I can't really say I would know what the difference is. I didn't replace my sprockets, which is a no-no, I know, but they appeared to be in good shape with no hooking of the teeth. My guess is that the chain just got rusty where it was even though it and the sprockets were relatively new.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 05:41:32 PM by Kit »
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Offline MCRider

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Re: I've got a question about chains
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2010, 05:45:19 PM »
How's the wear look? You're kidding?

Those are shot.  

PS: to answer the question, no they are not supposed to have those little notches.

I always like looking at trashed parts though, thanks for sharing.

I'd be suspicious that the chain is salvageable.  All those parts will still "work". They are just technically worn out.  If its 36 years old, I wouldn't trust it other than for testing purposes until I could get a new one.

ORing would be preferable, but I've read its death on some models if not all of the 500/550 as it grooves out the cases.
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Offline YogiBear

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Re: I've got a question about chains
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2010, 07:11:41 PM »
One thing I forgot to mention about O Ring chains, if you do end up buying one, get a clip style master link like is on your old chain. I think alot of the O ring chains come with a rivet style master link and it makes it a royal pain when you go to work on the bike. you buy them separate.

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Offline Gordon

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Re: I've got a question about chains
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2010, 07:37:32 PM »
You should search the forums for "550 o-ring chain" before you get one for your 550. 

Offline Kframe

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Re: I've got a question about chains
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2010, 08:09:04 PM »
...
Just to the lower left of the sprocket, and while you have that cover off, just check your shifter oil seal (if 550s have a press-in one like 650s do?) Mine dripped for quite awhile before actually blowing out, and even though it's a $5 fix, it's worth doing while you've got the cover off to redo the sprockets and chain.   I think Spikeybike (now that's a wild and awesome 550) nipped up a little oil drip on his, too, this way.
...

Thanks for that about the seal.  The chain and the countersprocket area are filthy, I just don't know yet if that was from too much chain lube the PO used over the years or if I've got a leak.  I'll make sure to order a new seal when I spring for chains & sprockets.
 :), -K
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Offline Kframe

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Re: I've got a question about chains
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2010, 08:20:12 PM »
How's the wear look? You're kidding?

Those are shot.  
I'm pretty new to chain bikes (my '84 Shadow is a shafty and my Bonneville is barely broken in) so I don't really know what the wear looks like.  (And of course this chain and sprocket set is so dirty it's hard to see if you don't know what to look for.)
What do you see that makes it obvious they're worn out? 

Quote
PS: to answer the question, no they are not supposed to have those little notches.

I always like looking at trashed parts though, thanks for sharing.

Interesting, I wonder how they got notched like that?  Good to know!

Quote
I'd be suspicious that the chain is salvageable.  All those parts will still "work". They are just technically worn out.  If its 36 years old, I wouldn't trust it other than for testing purposes until I could get a new one.

ORing would be preferable, but I've read its death on some models if not all of the 500/550 as it grooves out the cases.

Yeah I think replacement has just moved way up my priority list.  I've been told by a few guys that have been around awhile that on cars you don't neglect your tires, and on bikes you don't neglect anything!  I don't want something that just works, I want something that is safe and works well, in that order.

Thanks, I appreciate it!
 :)
-K
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Offline Stev-o

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Re: I've got a question about chains
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2010, 08:38:38 PM »
+1 on the sprockets are shot!

Rule of thumb: when replacing your chain, replace sprockets as well. [or chain could wear out prematurly].

If you don't plan on putting a lot of miles annually on your bike, the standard chain may work fine for you.

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Offline Deltarider

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Re: I've got a question about chains
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2010, 12:43:47 AM »
Quote
Rule of thumb: when replacing your chain, replace sprockets as well. [or chain could wear out prematurly].
Before the industry succesfully stamped this idea on consumers that you have to replace sprockets with every new chain, it was common practice for owners of bikes like the 500/550 to change sprockets every second chain. I've done so for the last thirty years. The only O-ring chain I tried, could not impress me. There's nothing wrong with a standard chain and there's nothing wrong with looking after it once in a while. You have to be there anyway, to check your rear tire for nails and other sharp objects that are maybe halfway in... O, and the master link with a clip works just fine. No need to rivet, not on a 500 or 550.
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Offline Hush

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Re: I've got a question about chains
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2010, 01:40:53 AM »
Your chain has been leaving the sprocket before it should, those nicks are wear marks, sprocket def shot.
Here is a trick to check your chain wear, lay it down on a flat surface and see how much "bend" you can get out of it, the closer you can get to a circle the more stuffed it is, less bend means less wear...I made a study of this when my partner's bike needed a new chain.
I posted a FAQ on choosing a chain and what fits what model, should be there if you search. :)

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Offline MCRider

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Re: I've got a question about chains
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2010, 05:33:18 AM »
This may be a good place to add this technique. Wrap the clean chain around either sprocket. Holding it tight at 12 asnd 6 oclock. If you can pull the chain away from the sprocket teeth to where you have daylight, at 3 oclock, you have wear. It takes some experience to know how much wear.

THis can be done with the chain on the bike. Pull the top and bottom runs together to pull the chain tight to the sprockets at 12 and 6, then pull the chain away from the sprocket at 3 oclock. Daylight = wear.

You should see a new set up and see how much daylight you can see when doing this (none) and compare to yours for daylight. If you an push a screwdriver in probably too much.

Another bit of experience to gain, see how much daylight you have with a new chain and a used sprocket. I'm not one for replacing sprockets with each chain either. With proper maintenance I think every other chain, maybe every third chain. Granted each chain will have minimally faster wear that with fresh sprockets, but its a money thing.
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Offline Yoshi823

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Re: I've got a question about chains
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2010, 05:34:24 AM »
I bought a Regina chain for my 750...it was the worst purchase that I ever made...it was worn out in 1800 miles & had more tight spots than a nunnery.
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Offline Fritz

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Re: I've got a question about chains
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2010, 07:55:19 AM »
Since I've also noticed a problem with the chain clearing this main transmission shaft sealing on my 550, I've been discussing this on a German forum. Many think that scraping the outer rubber part of the seal is not a problem and I've not seen any oil dripping so far. I'll ride the O ring chain until it is worn. Will keep an eye on the engine case though.

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Offline HavocTurbo

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Re: I've got a question about chains
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2010, 01:06:29 PM »
While the o-rings are nice.....

The standard chains on the 550 are somewhat better. The older standard roller chains can handle way more abuse than the newer o-ring/x-ring chains.

So your 550 won't be breaking one anytime soon.....

Yes I'll agree that the sprockets are shot.

Whatever you decide to do.... hit me up first for your parts. I'll try to get you the best prices for good quality stuff.

I recommend the DID oem replacement chain but there are other options as well.
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Offline Kframe

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Re: I've got a question about chains
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2010, 03:57:33 PM »
While the o-rings are nice.....

The standard chains on the 550 are somewhat better. The older standard roller chains can handle way more abuse than the newer o-ring/x-ring chains.

So your 550 won't be breaking one anytime soon.....

Yes I'll agree that the sprockets are shot.

Whatever you decide to do.... hit me up first for your parts. I'll try to get you the best prices for good quality stuff.

I recommend the DID oem replacement chain but there are other options as well.

HT, I appreciate it!  Probably won't be for a month or so, gotta scratch up some scratch first!

Are most CB550 riders happy with the stock gearing, or is it common to go up or down a tooth on either sprocket?
I ask because the earlier Hinckley Bonneville's have a 17 tooth up front and it seems a great majority of guys go up to an 18 or 19 for less buzziness on the higher speed roads.   And of course there are the guys that are grunting around tight twisties and light offroad (on the Scrambler) and drop down a tooth for more low end torque to the wheel.

Thanks again!
-K
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Offline Kframe

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Re: I've got a question about chains
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2010, 04:05:42 PM »
Oh, and are clip-master-links weaker than peened links?

It seems to me that inspection/maintenance/lubrication/replacement is much easier on a chain that only takes 2 minutes to get off the bike, right?  In the summer it's pretty easy to do 300-500 miles in a weekend, so I lube my chain just about weekly.
Or are you (me) not supposed remove it frequently, is it just for initial installation and final removal?  Does the clip get looser everytime?
:)
-K
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Offline HavocTurbo

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Re: I've got a question about chains
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2010, 01:19:38 PM »
You could always go up a tooth on the front and see what it does for you. Honda's were always geared a little bit different than the british bikes so I'm not sure if you'll get the same results as they did. Tial and error.

clip m/l's are in no way inferior when it comes to your specific bike. Now a clip m/l on a zx14 or busa? probably not a good idea given the power they produce.

As for lubrication.... I don't take my chains off.... but yes... a clip m/l is by far waaaaay easier than a riveted one. NO CUTTING!!!
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Offline patricke9

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Re: I've got a question about chains
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2010, 08:32:40 AM »
While the o-rings are nice.....

The standard chains on the 550 are somewhat better. The older standard roller chains can handle way more abuse than the newer o-ring/x-ring chains.

So your 550 won't be breaking one anytime soon.....

Yes I'll agree that the sprockets are shot.

Whatever you decide to do.... hit me up first for your parts. I'll try to get you the best prices for good quality stuff.

I recommend the DID oem replacement chain but there are other options as well.

Can you pm me a price for stock sized chain & sprockets for a '77 CB550k- will be replacing mine soon.  Can you supply the oil seal as well?  Thanks Patrick
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Offline Kframe

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Re: I've got a question about chains
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2010, 05:10:08 PM »
I pulled the rear wheel off so I could take a better look at the sprocket, here it is 'before' in all its filthy glory.



After much scrubbing I finally got all the hardened crud off.



Once I got a closer look, the teeth aren't notched at the end, that was just grease that'd formed into peaks.



I still think I'll replace the sprockets when I order new chain, but the sprocket looks in good enough shape that I'll keep it as a spare.

-K
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Offline HavocTurbo

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Re: I've got a question about chains
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2010, 05:48:48 PM »
Replace everything and consider yourself having extra insurance.  ;D

That was a DIRTY set of sprockets and chain.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: I've got a question about chains (edit: New Pics)
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2010, 06:39:41 PM »
Your rear sprocket is worn out, too.   You'll see when you get a new one and compare the valleys, which are wider than they should be.  This sprocket will quickly wear a new chain's pins and side plates so it "fits" the old sprocket.

The O ring 530 chains are too wide for the 550, due to the added width of the o rings.  They will bite into the seal rubber as the pictures show above.  That seal is metal backed behind the rubber, but the metal is very thin.  Once it wears through that, the seal is toast oil spews, and it requires splitting the cases to replace it (*IF* you can find a new seal).  I feel Fritz is foolish using the 530 oring chain without modifications until a more serious failure shows up. (IMO, no offense intended.)

The front 530 sprocket can be milled to allow an offset washer to be used on the shaft, which moves the front sprocket outward to gain the required clearance.  The clearance becomes less as both the chain link sides and the sprocket tooth width wear to allows more lateral movement of the chain on the highway.  Alternately, you can use a 520 oring chain with the corresponding sprockets, as you are replacing them anyway.

I do NOT recommend going up on the front tooth count for the 550.  An even-firing inline-four engine is in primary balance because the pistons are moving in pairs, and one pair of pistons is always moving up at the same time as the other pair is moving down.  You will not get the buzzy vibration like the twins do.
It is a high RPM engine, quite unlike the twins which have good torque, the 550 does not have good low or mid range torque.  You need the RPM to make the bike scoot.  Dropping one, two or even three gears to get the bike to scoot is routine.  I had a 650 BSA which you only needed to do throttle twist to pass.  On the 550 at 40 MPH you'll drop to second gear to pass. (And it will pass quickly)  Raise the sprocket ratio and you are lugging the engine, or dropping to lower gears to get any throttle snap.  Raising the ratio also taxes the clutch more.   At any rate, be prepared for a lot of gear changes on the 550.  It will become second nature after a while.   If you use throttle as an escape maneuver in traffic situations, you be happiest at about 3500-4000 RPM.  The only sprocket change I recommend is dropping a tooth in front, ONLY if you are only driving around the city streets and very seldom are on the highway.
Anyway don't be afraid of the RPM on the 550.  It was built to take it with aplomb.  Anything under 9300 is fair game, and I do believe the engine likes it.  You will HATE the bike if you try to keep it at the same RPMs as a Bonneville twin.  The styling may be similar.  But, they have very different hearts in them, along with engine management ideology.

I use a standard DID chain on all my 550s.  (Yes, I tried an oring chain.)  A worn sprocket will quickly wear a new chain.  It's a trade off; economy vs wear duration.  For me it works out this way, starting with a new chain and both sprockets you will get the longest wear life.  Replace just the chain when worn.  2nd chain replacement, also replace front sprocket,  third chain wear out, replace both front and rear sprockets with new chain.
Re-tension a new chain at 200 miles and then 500 mile intervals thereafter.

Chain gets lubed at least every 500 miles.  I do mine every 200 with PJ Lube in the black can.  Do this at the end of a ride when the chain is warm, and let the lube thicken over night for minimum fly off.   Fly off is cleaned with mineral spirits.   Wax is for oring chains, NOT standard, I don't care if it is, or looks cleaner.  You are trading off chain life for looks with dry/wax lubes. IMO
The lube interval is shortened if you ride in the rain or get abnormal dirt/dust on the chain.

Enjoy your 550.  They are very well mannered, and quite a joy to drive around.  But, they will keep your left foot busy.

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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