Topic: End of Democracy... anyone care??

[mark]

....BS Tax breaks for business = more money for R&D, cheaper prices, better wages, growth...

That's what he said in HS Economics class. This here is the real world.

Tax breaks for business = more money for dividends and CEO bonuses. Forget the outsourced R&D, higher prices, stagnant wages...

[edbikerii]

It is childish and ignorant, too.  Your post was very well thought out, and actually deserves to be read, rather than ignorantly attacked.

MC = totally brainwashed, capitalism style ...IMO.

That's a personal attack and against board guidelines and etiquette.

You've got something to contribute?

[edbikerii]

In the end, bias in the educational system and the media make campaign contributions irrelevant.  How much MORE MONEY can Hollywood spend trying to promote democrats in America?

There is still hope.  Despite all of the media's efforts, Obama's, Pelosi's, Frank's, Reid's, etc. policies have proven to be very unpopular, resulting in the Republican (or simply NOT DEMOCRAT) victories in MA, NJ and VA.

Being a "rock star" can only get you so far.

[MCRider]

It is childish and ignorant, too.  Your post was very well thought out, and actually deserves to be read, rather than ignorantly attacked.

MC = totally brainwashed, capitalism style ...IMO.

That's a personal attack and against board guidelines and etiquette.

You've got something to contribute?

Thanks but fear not, all's well.

Proceed with thoughtful discussion.   

[edbikerii]

Sorry guys, I hadn't read up to the point where you guys had "kissed and made up" yet.  That's very commendable.

It is childish and ignorant, too.  Your post was very well thought out, and actually deserves to be read, rather than ignorantly attacked.

MC = totally brainwashed, capitalism style ...IMO.

That's a personal attack and against board guidelines and etiquette.

You've got something to contribute?

Thanks but fear not, all's well.

Proceed with thoughtful discussion.   

[edbikerii]

Agreed!  Also, it is businesses, both big and small, that create sustainable growth, NOT GOVERNMENT.

"Job programs" where government hires workers to do menial tasks like re-paving sections of I80 does nothing to foster economic growth beyond the program itself.  Once that road is done, those men are unemployed again.

Competition in business focusing on growth industries (like technology, biomed, etc.) creates entirely new industries that often lead to economic prosperity.  Those businesses need office space, so construction booms.  They hire workers, so tax revenues grow.  Those workers want houses, so housing market improves.  They send their kids to schools (both public and private), so the education system grows.  They drive to work on roads, so the auto industry and those road-builders get back to work, too.

Government throwing money at construction companies for "infrastructure" without any need, and then over-taxing the growth sectors of the economy is just putting the cart before the horse.

....BS Tax breaks for business = more money for R&D, cheaper prices, better wages, growth...

That's what he said in HS Economics class. This here is the real world.

Tax breaks for business = more money for dividends and CEO bonuses. Forget the outsourced R&D, higher prices, stagnant wages...

Sorry Mark, but lets look at "this here real world" for a minute. Michigan. I could rest my case with that, but I'll continue just in case you don't know about this here state...

First off, the majority of Americans work for small business, and not evil "Big Biz". So your argument has a lot of holes already. But I'll keep going...

Since Jennifer Grandholm (D) took over the office of Governor in MI, she has raised taxes on small business' by over 362% as of last Jan '09. Right now, MI has an unemployment rate of nearly 20% statewide with Detroit coming in at over 30% unemployment. And this started long before the housing bubble. In 2005, MI's economy had dropped from average (around 17th) to 2nd worse. (1st was MS right after Katrina. Thats how bad it was).

Cutbacks are a guarantee when taxes go up. I'll take a possibility of stagnant wages over unemployed any day. (real #'s are much higher. The unemployment #'s are only of those who are collecting unemployment and are still looking for work. If you aren't looking, or off the system, you don't count in the govt stats.)

This is a major sidebar of the main topic of this thread... Sorry.  But if you don't like big business, move to one of the thousands of other places in this world that don't have them. (Haiti?) Griping about them is like griping about air. You can't just rationally wake up one day and decide to boycott air. You would die. To simplify, we need big business in a very similar symbiotic way. At least the free market gets to decide who and where they buy from. The only legal way to not pay an increase in taxes is to move your business. Which is what most of Michigan did. Case in point.

[BobbyR]

Bill, you have backed into my favorite Economics class. My Professor was the economics correspondent for the Italian Radio and Television network. When I asked how Italy survived when Tax evasion was the second largest sport after Soccer. He responded that they had few giant factories except in the North. Most other exports like high end shoes   were made in network of small shops. Goods and services were provided and money flowed through the economy. The cornerstone of a solid economy is the smaller business. My concern is not with Corporations, my concern is that special interests can now openly buy politicians to get sweetheart deals to drain our tax dollars or limit competition. I agree with TT, we need to pay attention to which Politician is in what pocket and vote them out.   

[Rocking-M]

Agreed!  Also, it is businesses, both big and small, that create sustainable growth, NOT GOVERNMENT.

"Job programs" where government hires workers to do menial tasks like re-paving sections of I80 does nothing to foster economic growth beyond the program itself.  Once that road is done, those men are unemployed again.

Competition in business focusing on growth industries (like technology, biomed, etc.) creates entirely new industries that often lead to economic prosperity.  Those businesses need office space, so construction booms.  They hire workers, so tax revenues grow.  Those workers want houses, so housing market improves.  They send their kids to schools (both public and private), so the education system grows.  They drive to work on roads, so the auto industry and those road-builders get back to work, too.

Government throwing money at construction companies for "infrastructure" without any need, and then over-taxing the growth sectors of the economy is just putting the cart before the horse.

then those jobs are out sourced to third worlds and voila, those folks are unemployed too.

[Duke McDukiedook]

Hehe, republic, riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.  

If you think your vote actually matters, you are clearly bat#$%* delusional or just plain stupid.

This country got sold to the highest bidders quite some time ago.

[mark]

well, I guess we'll just have to agree that we disagree.

Just like God Santa Claus and The Great Pumpkin, I'll believe in Corporate Good Citizenship when I see it.

[tramp]

it's like this
if you don't talk to your reps in congress you have no room to talk about how bad you think it is
this is still a great country and if you don't like it your free to move to another country that is better
oh i forgot, there is none
sorry, had to rant

[Rocking-M]

Agreed!  Also, it is businesses, both big and small, that create sustainable growth, NOT GOVERNMENT.

"Job programs" where government hires workers to do menial tasks like re-paving sections of I80 does nothing to foster economic growth beyond the program itself.  Once that road is done, those men are unemployed again.

Competition in business focusing on growth industries (like technology, biomed, etc.) creates entirely new industries that often lead to economic prosperity.  Those businesses need office space, so construction booms.  They hire workers, so tax revenues grow.  Those workers want houses, so housing market improves.  They send their kids to schools (both public and private), so the education system grows.  They drive to work on roads, so the auto industry and those road-builders get back to work, too.

Government throwing money at construction companies for "infrastructure" without any need, and then over-taxing the growth sectors of the economy is just putting the cart before the horse.

then those jobs are out sourced to third worlds and voila, those folks are unemployed too.

Uh, Rocking. Did you mean to quote me in that? Cuz I didn't say that. At least not here in this current thread. If you're gonna quote someone, get it right...

Mr 2T I think if'n you'll look the quote was from Ed. Perhaps you had a comment in it but that
didn't pertain to what I quoted I don't think.

[Rocking-M]

one mo thang 2T, perhaps the software is glitchy cause the quotes function seems to be screwy.

As to your "get it right" comment. Fuk off to ya.

[TwoTired]

it's like this

...As in similar but really quite different?

if you don't talk to your reps in congress you have no room to talk about how bad you think it is

Been talking to the "reps" for more than 20 years.  Talking doesn't make them listen, and doesn't effect their actions.

this is still a great country and if you don't like it your free to move to another country that is better

The latter is just not true.  For example:
My mother in law ( a US citizen) visited New Zealand, and simply loved it.  So, she explored moving there.  She was a credentialed school teacher with many years experience.  She could get a visitation visa but not one that allowed residency, as the skill she brought was not deemed important enough.
She had deemed NZ better than the US.  She was NOT free to move there.

oh i forgot, there is none

While I certainly tend to agree with you, I believe there are many people with nationalistic pride that would disagree with you... like those living outside of the U.S. now.

sorry, had to rant

Sorry, had to argue.  

[Rocking-M]

The latter is just not true.  For example:
My mother in law ( a US citizen) visited New Zealand, and simply loved it.  So, she explored moving there.  She was a credentialed school teacher with many years experience.  She could get a visitation visa but not one that allowed residency, as the skill she brought was not deemed important enough.
She had deemed NZ better than the US.  She was NOT free to move there.


Interesting, I've thought NZ would be a great place to. They have a pretty good size logging industry so
maybe that skill would be good.   PS don't know why my answer to quotes always get stuck in the blue box.
Don't have this problem anywhere else.

[MCRider]

The latter is just not true.  For example:
My mother in law ( a US citizen) visited New Zealand, and simply loved it.  So, she explored moving there.  She was a credentialed school teacher with many years experience.  She could get a visitation visa but not one that allowed residency, as the skill she brought was not deemed important enough.
She had deemed NZ better than the US.  She was NOT free to move there.


Interesting, I've thought NZ would be a great place to. They have a pretty good size logging industry so
maybe that skill would be good.   PS don't know why my answer to quotes always get stuck in the blue box.
Don't have this problem anywhere else.

Like this? I pasted in a second ending [/quote] so there were two at the end  to match the two above. Somehow you must've chopped one off.

[TwoTired]

Each quote header must end with a

 [/quote]

You only have one at the end, so it thinks all the text is quoted.

[Rocking-M]

Each quote header must end with a
You only have one at the end, so it thinks all the text is quoted.

I also found out if you leave one in the middle it mess with the reply also. 

like this eh? I hope, thanks fellows.

[BobbyR]

As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there's a twilight where everything remains seemingly unchanged, and it is in such twilight that we must be aware of change in the air, however slight, lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.

William O Douglas
The longest-serving justice in the history of the Supreme Court

[Duke McDukiedook]

I know quite a few people that have lived in the US and other countries that would definitely disagree about the US being the best country in the world, Tramp.

The only reason they came here was to make money and not have to pay as much in taxes compared to where they were living. That was about it.

[MCRider]

I know quite a few people that have lived in the US and other countries that would definitely disagree about the US being the best country in the world, Tramp.

The only reason they came here was to make money and not have to pay as much in taxes compared to where they were living. That was about it.

"Best" is a pretty subjective thing. Making money and paying less taxes are no small things.

So when they go to their "better country" and run out of money, then what. They come back to the US?

Sigh.

[Duke McDukiedook]

Just trying to speak to the fact that people that have lived in different countries and the US don't think this is the best country in the world, just cheap.

It seems more than quite a few of the people that flout "Amurica is duh best county in the world" have never been anywhere else, except maybe Tijuana- and that's not a good comparison.

I agree, 'Best' is very subjective, and I'm not goofy enough to make a statement to that effect.

[MCRider]

Just trying to speak to the fact that people that have lived in different countries and the US don't think this is the best country in the world, just cheap.

It seems more than quite a few of the people that flout "Amurica is duh best county in the world" have never been anywhere else, except maybe Tijuana- and that's not a good comparison.

I agree, 'Best' is very subjective, and I'm not goofy enough to make a statement to that effect.

Thank you, points taken. 

[edbikerii]

Hmmm...  Some of us have been to several different countries on various other continents, yet we still prefer the U.S.

Go figure.

[edbikerii]

Yeah, I wrote to both my senators, Lautenberg (D) and Menendez (D), from New Jersey, about healthcare, and I got back form letters outlining the DNC's talking points.  No consideration whatsoever was given to the very real concerns I wrote them about.

I imagine it would be different if I wrote again today.  Perhaps now that the supermajority is broken, our senators just might think about listening to the constituents.

I've spent time (weeks) in the UAE, China, Mexico, Egypt, and Germany for work. NOT vacation. I also have very good friends who are native to Israel, Greece, England, Ireland, Vietnam, Japan, Iceland, Canada, Russia, Africa, India... Just saying I actually do know what it's like on the other side of the border in a limited way. Btw, they all moved and stayed here for a reason. Although the US has numerous flaws, I can say from first hand experience we have it better than most. So, while "home" may always seem better, there is a reason why people of these countries move here and stay. I'm just sayin.

I would argue that most of what is broken in American politics is not the system but rather the ignorance of the constituents. Most people have no idea what their elected officials are actually doing for them. We have the ability to vote for people we like, or vote others out of power.

I can say that Senator Lugar from IN has responded to all 4 of my letters. Not himself personally of course, but more than just a "thank you for your concern" letter. Real, thoughtful, and responses with his ink signature. On one occasion I even got a phone call. I sent Evan Bayh the same 4 letters and didn't hear a word from him, until this week when I got a campaign letter from him. I'll bet you know who I'm voting for next election...