Topic: Harley Threatens to close KC plant

[754]

Harley unable to move to the beat..

 Maybe I misunderstand.. but they have brought out cool stuff, and have for a long time..
 The 48 model the rocker the Spst 1200  that  seems to handle good..  the mainstream media seemed to be clenching their teeth when they reported how that one was to ride..


 Back in about 80 they came out with the WideGlide.. with flames and longer forks..  What did Honda come out with ?.. the Magna, an incredibly ugly compressed looking bike..

 The Japan maker resisted making long wheelbase for a very long time... but look where they are now with the cruisers..

[Duke McDukiedook]

Unfortunately this is a problem when a company goes public, all that matters is the stock prices and keeping the shareholders happy.

Guess what people, when you see consistent double digit growth on stocks usually someone is cooking books or people are getting screwed!!!! And usually it is the workers that actually make the product!!

[Cuts Crooked]

Guess what people, when you see consistent double digit growth on stocks usually someone is cooking books or people are getting screwed!!!! And usually it is the workers that actually make the product!!

What?? You mean they weren't getting paid what they agreed to work for?

It's called free market enterprize. If you choose to work for someone else, you are at the mercy of their business descisions. ergo: If they "cook the books" then you suffer for it. If they come up with the miracle product that takes the world by storm then you get a pay check. You don't get to demand more money just because they make a huge profit.... It's their business, they make the descisions.  If you can't live with that, then don't work for someone else! This is the very basis of what this country was founded upon. You CAN go out and try to make it on yer own, maybe you will fail, maybe you will succeed. But it's YOUR descision and failure or success is your own to do. Anyone who works for you has to live with your failures or your succcesses. Enuff of Real World Economics 101.......

[Frankenkit]

*is edging toward the microwave for the popcorn.  Trouble's brewin...*

[Damfino]

Pass the butter Kit....

[Duke McDukiedook]

Oh boy, I smell another free market loon in this thread. 

So lemme guess, this last market meltdown was because of what, over regulation Mr. Freemarket Laissez Faire?

[Cuts Crooked]

<shrug>
Doesn't matter in the context of this thread. But regulation is NOT free market, if that's what your are seeking for an answer.

Loon? or simply the talk of a socialist at heart? Ah!!!! But THAT gets into politics, and we were talking about Harley Davidson and simple economic reality......at least I wuz.

Sooooo....you didn't answer my question, did the employees not get paid what they agreed to work for? Or are you saying the business owner is obligated to pass along profits, that were not contracted for?

Hmmm...that looks good! Ahem!.... My good lady, I would gladly pay you tuesday for some popcorn today!

[tramp]

harleys own image hurts them
look at the v rod
nice bike but it doesn't look like a harley so no one buys it

[Duke McDukiedook]

Well, let's see, the workers held up their part of the bargain, make motorcycles for a specified salary. The board runs into a tough economy and makes no changes except to go to every single plant and demand concessions or else they shutter the plant. Sounds like the board is kinda changing the rules- or throwing them out the window. There is your answer- greed on the part of the board and stockholders.


Of course they couldn't change their product, that would make too much sense, instead they have to go after the easy- worker's salaries.  

[Brown Bomber]

harleys own image hurts them
look at the v rod
nice bike but it doesn't look like a harley so no one buys it

     There was a Victory dealer here that told me posers came in all the time, and told him they couldn't buy one because it didn't say Harley on the side of it.
Now he sells only Ducati

     After riding a V-Rod, I can't say it's a nice bike. Ridiculously uncomfortable, and I was hoping the performance would impress me enough to get over it's goofy looks, but I think my '87 Concours has more balls, and I know it handles better. 

[Skonnie Boy]

A union contract is not trying to unduly share in the profits of the company.  Its what it says it is, an agreement or contract to pay workers or have workers receive a certain amount of pay and compensation.  When the company tries to change that, they are trying to change the rules of the game while the game itself is being played.  If I owned a company and knew that I had X amount of expenses and payroll, overhead, etc, you can be damn sure I'd do my best to make sure that my workers were building a product that would keep them in their jobs.

When I went to the Harley museum this summer, I saw an amazing company that changed and adapted their products.  I do think they're doing that with the Nightster, etc.  But they could be doing much more.  Less merch, more bike.

[Damfino]

 Less merch, more bike.

But I like my overpriced T-shirts!! They're the only 'Harley' I can afford!

[Cuts Crooked]

"It's my plant! I can close it if I want too....unless of course you workers are willing to bargain again. You don't wanna? Ok, I can still close it."

That my freinds is reality. You can rail against it if you like, but it doesn't change anything. You work for someone else, you are at their mercy. Anything else is not free market, it's just another form of socialism. But then....that's what Unionism is too. But again...we're treading close to the line of politics. Not good. Economics on the other hand, should be just that!

If I have a factory that makes headers, and I can't sell enough headers to make a profit, I can change my business model, or ask my staff to take a pay cut, or make something else, or brrow money to improve the plant with more efficiant machinery thereby occuring risk of bankrupting, or close the factory. But I'm not going to take a loss. Those options are open to me. You don't like it, you are welcome to go seek employment elsewhere, I certainly won't stand in your way. (funny how that doesn't work both ways though, isn't it?   )

It's really simple! Gotta make a profit, if ya don't ya go under. Doesn't matter if you are a shareholder, business owner, or CEO...ya got to show a profit or you're a loser.

Which do you prefer, see an American business bankrupt, or see their employees cut a deal that keeps them being paid and the business open? On a personal level it realy doesn't matter to you and me, but it does to someone.........

[spot45]

You are actually saying what I wanted to say.  Glad someone here has the balls to say it like it is. 

[Retro Rocket]

"It's my plant! I can close it if I want too....unless of course you workers are willing to bargain again. You don't wanna? Ok, I can still close it."

That my freinds is reality. You can rail against it if you like, but it doesn't change anything. You work for someone else, you are at their mercy. Anything else is not free market, it's just another form of socialism. But then....that's what Unionism is too. But again...we're treading close to the line of politics. Not good. Economics on the other hand, should be just that!

If I have a factory that makes headers, and I can't sell enough headers to make a profit, I can change my business model, or ask my staff to take a pay cut, or make something else, or brrow money to improve the plant with more efficiant machinery thereby occuring risk of bankrupting, or close the factory. But I'm not going to take a loss. Those options are open to me. You don't like it, you are welcome to go seek employment elsewhere, I certainly won't stand in your way. (funny how that doesn't work both ways though, isn't it?  )

It's really simple! Gotta make a profit, if ya don't ya go under. Doesn't matter if you are a shareholder, business owner, or CEO...ya got to show a profit or you're a loser.

Which do you prefer, see an American business bankrupt, or see their employees cut a deal that keeps them being paid and the business open? On a personal level it realy doesn't matter to you and me, but it does to someone.........

You obviously didn't read this post..

Maytag did that here, they made ridiculous concession demands to the union hoping they would say no so the plant closing would be the unions fault. Surprise! The union agreed to the concessions and they closed anyway.

Its not always like your example, and why should the companies profit margins be balanced by the employee's wages, if you can't compete with the current markets then get out, who really gives a #$%* what company it is, the employees that have kept it running shouldn't be held to ransom to prop up an ailing company, this is a piss poor business model that needs to evolve or it will be dead in the water. We as employee's are always held accountable for what we are doing at work, its about time some of these businesses did the same thing. Another point is that most of the guys that work for Harley are hard core Harley men themselves, kicking part of your own market in the balls isn't good business practice...

Mick

[Frankenkit]

we have Blast o Butter and Kettle korn... Dook, which would you prefer?

[Cuts Crooked]

Ah yes! If one make consessions to ones employer then that employer is obligated to stay open even if there is a better way to make the product and the profits!  LOL!!!!

Sorry, but I do find it funny! Maytag tried to get more consessions from it's employees but they drew a line where they would not go further. Maytag closed the plants and went elsewhere...their option. The employees didn't own the business, they worked for it. Again.....if you work for someone else, you do so at their pleasure. You don't like it? Don't work for them. (there is a lot more to the Maytag story! And guess what? They are making a profit again. Sooooo, yes it is like my example. Do you think Maytag wold have closed the plants if they were making money hand over fist?)

KIT!!!! I offered to pay fer my share! (admittedly in the future) And here you go offering it free to Dookie? I'm deeply hurt!   Perhaps I should unionize and go on strike!

[Frankenkit]

you offered to pay tuesday for some popcorn today, and that just won't stand, my friend.  You get yer popcorn when ya pay for it.

[Retro Rocket]

The point was that Maytag went through the motions to make the Unions look bad but never intended in keeping the place open at all.
You obviously don't get it mate, all the things that supposedly made your country great are gone, everything is aimed at profit and no one cares about the little guy, all morals have gone out the window. All throughout history, this example has come back to bite the companies or governments on the arse and it will again. Companies have no right to expect employee's to work for less just so they can maintain current profits, and "yes" they can or should leave and work for someone else but your current #$%*ed up financial situation dictates differently......Laugh all you like  but keep screwing the little guy, take him for granted and all of a sudden he will become powerful, joined by the millions of people suppressed by greed, they will revolt.....It is inevitable.

Mick

[Frankenkit]

but until that revolt, you can get by for quite awhile by making these individuals relatively expendable. Especially in our economy, with the rate of unemployment we're facing.  Employees desperate to keep jobs will do things they wouldn't any other time. 

[Cuts Crooked]

Ah Retro.... (we need a head shaking GIF for this sort of thing) You really need to read some history about this nation and economics, if you really think things have changed regarding "the little guy") BTW, were you aware that not only did Maytag go ahead and close, they pulled out of their contractual obligation regarding retirees health insurance? Yup! and so far they seem to be winning in the courts. Whatever...there is not now, and never has been a constitutional right to employment. If that should ever come to pass we will live in Amerika fer sure 'n certain! Remember, even revolt is a two edged sword!

Kit, thank you! I'll bet you would do really good in the stock market! For making my point about the right to refuse, even a possible profit making venture, with some risk involved, I will set aside some pop corn for you....for free....next time I make some!

[seanbarney41]

Cuts Crooked, just keep on subscribing to those attitudes and economics and you will probably see the result.  When all these workers have had everything taken from them and no longer have anything to lose, guess where they are going to be coming for their next meal.  Your house.  Before they eat, they will probably smack that red off your neck and goofy grin in your avatar right off your face.  Sorry, we're supposed to be talkin' about bikes here but when there are people from all over the world reading these posts I have to let them know that yours is certainly not the only American way.

[Damfino]

When all these workers have had everything taken from them and no longer have anything to lose, guess where they are going to be coming for their next meal.  Your house.  Before they eat, they will probably smack that red off your neck and goofy grin in your avatar right off your face.  Sorry, we're supposed to be talkin' about bikes here but when there are people from all over the world reading these posts I have to let them know that yours is certainly not the only American way.

Sure, there 'ya go.... alluding to violence. If that ain't showing them the American way, then I don't know what will....

[Frankenkit]

hotDAMM I love this place!!!!  YEEHAW!

[Retro Rocket]

Ah Retro.... (we need a head shaking GIF for this sort of thing) You really need to read some history about this nation and economics, if you really think things have changed regarding "the little guy") BTW, were you aware that not only did Maytag go ahead and close, they pulled out of their contractual obligation regarding retirees health insurance? Yup! and so far they seem to be winning in the courts. Whatever...there is not now, and never has been a constitutional right to employment. If that should ever come to pass we will live in Amerika fer sure 'n certain! Remember, even revolt is a two edged sword!

You would be surprised to know that most Australians probably know more about your country that most Americans do, we get taught on a global scale. All this bull#$%* about Amerika is simple minded crap. So you think that all business should #$%* the worker up the arse, throw all morals out the window and do as they please and #$%* the consequences because that is what you appear to be advocating here..? Tell me why greed is so much better that equality and treating everyone with the respect they deserve, it wasn't that long ago that this was the case,  in Australia anyway, and i remember it well. My parents only needed  to have one wage earner to buy a house and feed the family, now 2 wages aren't even close to getting you the same thing.  Everything over the last 20+ years has been aimed at super profits and screw the consequences. Economics in the US are a joke and it is that unregulated greed that has put you people in the mess you are in now, don't need a degree in economics to work that one out. Something HAS to change and it will and it will be up to the Governments and big businesses to work out whether it will be painless or not. The current system creates massive poverty and is cruel especially in the US where money dictates weather you live or die and you have the cheek to suggest that the big businesses are right for removing wages to prop up profits...!!!!   At what cost to the individual, you haven't even mentioned that once......out of site out of mind...... It is easy to ignore it isn't it.

Mick