Author Topic: Best Air Filter Option  (Read 8306 times)

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Offline CafeWild34

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Best Air Filter Option
« on: August 08, 2011, 04:57:12 AM »
What is my best air filter option? I have nothing right now so anything is bettter than what I have. Shoould I use a stock air box, pods or velocity stacks. I've seen alot of negative feedback on pods so i'm thinkin those aren'tt a good way to go. I didn't know if velocity stacks were just as bad or better than pods. Dime City has some pretty sweet ones. Thanks for any help.

Offline ekpent

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2011, 04:58:31 AM »
What bike?? If a 750 use stock airbox and a KN filter.

Offline Johnie

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2011, 05:50:53 AM »
I always opt for the OEM air box with OEM filter. I want my set ups to be totally stock as I figure the jetting and all specs were designed for the OEM systems. Then if something does not run right I at least know it is not the air box system.
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Offline vames

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2011, 06:06:16 AM »
A semantical nitpick, I know, but velocity stacks are NOT air filters. They are actually a lack of air filters.

Offline dtmmil

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2011, 06:30:31 AM »
I run steel dragon performance v-stacks, they have a screen that covers the throat of the carb.
http://www.steeldragonperformance.com/products_2.html
he also makes a breadbox type air  cleaner if you want to stay more stock. I personally think the stock airbox is big and ugly. my .02

Offline CafeWild34

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2011, 11:39:20 AM »
SSrry i forgot to mention I have a 74 cb550. I guess that may come in handy. I like the look ofthose air boxes on the steel dragon site but it says they are for cb750's.

Offline dtmmil

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2011, 12:58:07 PM »
He should be able to make them work for the 550 also I would think, send him an email, his name is Mike, good guy to work with. He will do what he can to help.

Offline coldwave007

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2011, 01:55:08 PM »
You're better of getting it to stock, riding it, then seeing if you want to tweak it from there. 
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Offline cb550inct

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2011, 02:09:43 PM »
I have a 78 550k. I changed they exhaust and the jetting and found my bike works better with the Uni- Replacement air filter nu- 4055. Kepp in mind if you buy the uni, get the filter oil kit.

And if you keeping the stock exhaust, keep everything stock including the filter.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2011, 07:45:00 PM »
I run steel dragon performance v-stacks, they have a screen that covers the throat of the carb.
http://www.steeldragonperformance.com/products_2.html
he also makes a breadbox type air  cleaner if you want to stay more stock. I personally think the stock airbox is big and ugly. my .02

Form over function again, V stacks will allow your engine to wear out faster, the screens only keep out dirt larger than the actual screen, their breadbox is built for looks as well. The best filter solution for the SOHC/4's is the original airbox and velocity stacks. Forum member Tintop has had some very good filters made up that incorporate the proper length velocity stacks, they are purpose built to work correctly, Everything else is a compromise.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=79491.525        Tintops air filter.....
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Offline dtmmil

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2011, 05:50:01 AM »
I understand about the stock airbox may be being the best option, but they are also ugly, big, clumsy to work with, and again don't look good. So I was giving options that I pefer. The breadbox he makes has a filter in it, may not be the stock POS, but its a filter, and is an option for someone who wants their bike to be other then bone stock.

Offline vames

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2011, 06:04:33 AM »
I understand about the stock airbox may be being the best option, but they are also ugly, big, clumsy to work with, and again don't look good.

If you take the time to get your bike running well with pods or stacks and you like the way it looks and you can handle the potential for increased wear on your engine from reduced filtration, then you should go for it.

If you can't get it to run smooth with beautiful pods or stacks, you have to consider how it "looks" to have your bike stumble and wheeze when you take off from a red light or when you crack the throttle from 1/4 to 1/2.

Not trying to fan the flames, just saying that pods and stacks should only be considered by those that have the knowledge and time to rework their setup to accomodate, which may not be a trivial task. 

Offline m in sc

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2011, 06:26:50 AM »
^ i have to disagree with part of this statement. the likely hood of an airbox letting particulate into a motor is greater than individual filters. there are lots more potential leak areas in an airbox assembly, especially one thats designed as the cb one is.
if you use good filters, its not an issue. most of my bikes are 2-strokes, dirt contamination is deadly on one, and all of them run individual foam uni filters(mostly because the carbs are so big the airbox is not an option anymore)  or k&n's.

that being said, jetting for pods is not that hard, especially on a 4-stroke. what causes the biggest loss is the stack in the bellmouth, that needs to be replicated to keep the airspeed high and directed as it comes across the mouth of the carb and the jet tube. k&n makes filters with internal stacks.. this would probably be your best bet when deviating from the stock airbox on these bikes IMHO.

as a side note.. my stock box is on my bike and im okay w/that, but i understand wanting to change it out. I may do that down the road....

Offline chickenman_26

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2011, 06:31:28 AM »
I understand about the stock airbox may be being the best option, but they are also ugly, big, clumsy to work with, and again don't look good. So I was giving options that I pefer. The breadbox he makes has a filter in it, may not be the stock POS, but its a filter, and is an option for someone who wants their bike to be other then bone stock.
Most of us prefer small and sexy to big and ugly, especially when it comes to women. But like women, small and sexy air "filters" often create more problems than they solve. And they usually can't cook. If the appearance is what's most important to you, then you'll be choosing to deal with the unintended consequences... like difficult tuning and a free bore job to second oversize from the filth that enters.

Stu
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Offline dtmmil

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2011, 06:38:07 AM »
Ok, been running stacks for about 40,000 miles now, some gravel, well I live on gravel, so at least 2 miles a day, still have good compression, hasn't changed since I started riding the bike. My bike runs better now, and I get better MPG then I ever did with the stock airbox. I have taken the time to tune to the stacks, no hesitations, no flat spots, runs good. I run the 78k carbs on mine, 3" steel dragon v-stacks, 115 jets and 45 pilots, fuel screws out about 1 turn, champion RA6HC plugs(never have any luck with NGK junk) among other mods, I get right around 45mpg at 65mph, use to get less then 40 with the stock box, and I have gotten just over 50 at times depending on conditions. So I guess if I am going to wear out my motor faster with the stacks, how long do they generally last? 

Offline chickenman_26

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2011, 07:03:24 AM »
Ok, been running stacks for about 40,000 miles now, some gravel, well I live on gravel, so at least 2 miles a day, still have good compression, hasn't changed since I started riding the bike. <snip> So I guess if I am going to wear out my motor faster with the stacks, how long do they generally last?
You either live a charmed life, or you aren't being completely honest with us. How many years have you been riding this VJM with open stacks to accumulate 40,000 miles? Would you remove the air filter element from your car and run with open carb or throttle body? Probably not, right? Can't tell you how long the motor will last, but try this - next time you change the air filter in your car, whack the used one with your hand and watch the dust cloud that comes out. All of that would have gone through the cylinders and intake guides without the filter. If you consider that meaningless, then so be it. The manufacturers didn't develop these filter boxes because they were inexpensive to design and produce. Just the opposite. Engine longevity is the prime consideration.

Stu
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bollingball

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2011, 08:08:54 AM »
Stu good point I bet all these stack guys have filters in there car or truck how do you spell hypocrite.

mrjack55

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2011, 08:15:21 AM »
Stu good point I bet all these stack guys have filters in there car or truck how do you spell hypocrite.

Wait, wait...hold on! 
I'm getting some popcorn and a beer.  This should be good.  ::)

I figure we might get 5 more posts before the moderator locks this thread.  Make um count!

Offline vames

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2011, 08:20:05 AM »
All these years with hundreds of millions of vehicles, it was all just a scam perpetrated by the greedy air filter industry and its powerful Washington lobby. Don't bow down to these money grubbing air filter manufacturers -- let your engine breathe free and get rid of your air filters!

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2011, 11:38:38 AM »
Paint is a functional part.  It provides a barrier between a material that can oxidize (such as steel), and the elements that work to convert it into a non-functional part.  Paint has a visual component to it, that may or may not please a particular human eye.  Changing the color doesn't effect how the part that was coated functions in the machine.

And engine will jam air borne particulates between piston and cylinder walls scouring both for increased wear.  It was determined long ago that the wear increases with the particulates quantity and type found in the air ingested.
Manufacturers can't control where the machine will be operated.  So, a device that "conditions" the air to remove engine damaging particulates is included with the machine, so the manufacturer's predictions of engine life can be realized, while reducing warranty claims.  They certainly didn't put an expensive air filter on there without darned good reasons of economy, reliability, and longevity.
How many nuts and bolts can you feed the velocity stack on a running engine?  Nuts and bolts are particulates too, just bigger.
But, if you only operate a machine with velocity stacks in a "clean room" environment, then you certainly don't "need" an air filter at all.

Given that a filter would be included with the machine, carburetors were adjusted to deliver proper fuel mixtures with their functional parameters and presence included.  They are thus tailored to each other.  Changing the "looks" of the air filter, also changes the function of the air filter.  In this case a "style change" is also a functional engineering change, quite unlike changing the color of the paint on the machine.

It is "simple" to adapt the carb's fuel metering with an air filter change using a dynamometer to load the engine at every operational RPM and read the exhaust gas content on an instrument specific for that task.  Then change the carb's internals to correct deviation's from ideal.  Then do another machine test on a dyno to verify desired changes.  Repeat until the "fuel map" reads as desired.

There are other ways; guess and try with a test track, reading spark plug deposits, tinkering until you get tired of the exercise, or sell the machine to someone else who becomes enamoured with "looks" over proper function.

I understand about the stock airbox may be being the best option, but they are also ugly, big, clumsy to work with, and again don't look good.
Perhaps consider that using the word "ugly" says more about you than the main discussion subject.

I found an urban dictionary defining "ugly".  Here are some excerpts for all to enjoy.  (I did not just make this up.)  ;D

--- A word used by arrogant #$%*s to make them seem like they are the most beautiful person ever and the person that they are calling "ugly" as a lower lifeform.

--- A very harsh word to use, but usually only an opinion anyway. I think someone that calls another person ugly is ugly themselves!

--- A term one would call something when one doesn't see the beauty in things.
"The sunset is so ugly!"

"Only in your perspective.."

In the end, the "best air filter option" is the one that best suits your goals.  What were those, again?
Max seat/riding time?
Best photo op?
Be stylish?
Whatever is most popular?
1/4 mile operation?
Ride it anywhere?
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Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline dtmmil

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2011, 11:52:50 AM »
Ok, again my stacks have a very fine screen covering the throat of the carb, and I have had the bike(motor) for about 6yrs now, I ride to work in the summer 4-5-6 days a week, plus if I get any other ride time. I generally start riding in late april and have ridden till december. The last 3yrs the motor has been in its current rigid frame. I do not ride with no filter, it may not be an ideal filter setup, but its not open either. Could it be better, probably, but it works for me, and has for the last 40,000 miles! And I guess my term Ugly for the stock airbox is being criticized also, another word I guess I could have used is less attractive, not as appealing to me as some other types of airboxes or setups.  I guess if you don't believe, or trust me on my mileage I put on thats fine, but my reasoning for having/building a bike was to ride it, not wash it and let it sit in the garage.

and VJM? what does that mean?

mrjack55

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2011, 02:51:34 PM »

and VJM? what does that mean?

Very Juicy Melons?  No?   ;D




Okay, okay...Vintage Japanese Motorcycle

Offline dtmmil

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2011, 03:01:36 PM »

and VJM? what does that mean?

Very Juicy Melons?  No?   ;D

haha, thanks, pretty obvious now that you posted!



Okay, okay...Vintage Japanese Motorcycle

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2011, 04:03:05 PM »
Well considering that this thread is about the best air filter option and V stacks aren't a filter i won't waste the OP's time refuting what dtmmil has posted. The stock airbox and Tintops filter are the only filters that i can currently find that work PROPERLY on a SOHC street bike. Most pods don't have V stacks so their air flow is disturbed and not correct , effecting the way the bike runs, there are hundreds of threads here that will confirm that. I will also say that i think there are a lot of guys here that don't realise how well these bikes go when set up properly and are quite happy to ride around with their form over function mods and thats fine but it annoys me when guys try to convince all and sundry that these cheap and nasty replacement parts work as well as the stock box or something that has been engineered to work properly, unlike most pods' and stacks. Remember that you are going to ride on the street, not flat out at a track so you want a filter system that works accordingly. If you don't care how well your bike can run and just want what ever you perceive looks better then do what you want, if you want the best running bike you can possibly have then source something proven to work.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2011, 04:09:14 PM »
Quote
that being said, jetting for pods is not that hard, especially on a 4-stroke. what causes the biggest loss is the stack in the bellmouth, that needs to be replicated to keep the airspeed high and directed as it comes across the mouth of the carb and the jet tube. k&n makes filters with internal stacks.. this would probably be your best bet when deviating from the stock airbox on these bikes IMHO.

Even the K&N are a compromise and almost impossible to get perfect for the street, they are just not designed for that, the stock box is. Like i said earlier, Tintop has had a filter designed by a company in England that build filter systems for formula 1 cars, Terry in Australia has tested it on his K1 836 bike and says that it is the only aftermarket filter system that has ever worked " PROPERLY" on his bikes other than the stock box, he has had over 20 of these bikes and so have I.  This filter looks great and incorporates the stock V stack specifications, check them out......

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=79491.525
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Offline dtmmil

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2011, 09:26:51 PM »
Ok, question about tintops air filter setup, how does it work when it gets wet, like when its raining, does the filter get wet? Curious about it, I did see his post about them.

Offline m in sc

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2011, 09:54:49 PM »
i disagree. if you get the stack right, then the speed and density are correct, and iou adjust your mixture to suit then yes, you can filter it and it will flow correctly. theres LOTS of fiddling w/carbs to get them right, but when you do get them right, they are okay. its not black magic, its a venturi with a pressure drop bleed system to break it down simply.

the biggest compromise IS the stock airbox as it was designed to work okay in all conditions and driving styles.. but not optimally.
the stock airbox has 4 velocity stacks built in which are needed. you get enough filter area behind that and compensate with the change in jetting, (which includes needles, pilots, slide cutouts, air jets, etc) and you can get it to work right. considering how small the stock opening is in the box it def bottle necks there. opening the hole opens the proverbial can of worms to a degree, and it goes on from there.

you cant tell me the optimal airfilter for that bike would be that trapezoid they stuck in there so that the airfilter can fit into a housing that is desinged to clear the frame rails. new boxes are a different ball game, resonance tuned, etc, but that ancient design on the cb is by no means optimal.


Ive been tuning fairly radical 2-strokes for almost 20 years.... im telling you, for a street ridden bikes it aint that hard. but it is time consuming. I think the biggest problem is it takes a lot of time, and usually money for parts. and some dyno time with a gas analyser.. just my .02


Offline mrbreeze

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2011, 11:10:45 PM »
I run steel dragon performance v-stacks, they have a screen that covers the throat of the carb.
http://www.steeldragonperformance.com/products_2.html
he also makes a breadbox type air  cleaner if you want to stay more stock. I personally think the stock airbox is big and ugly. my .02
AGREED!!!! Butt ugly and a major PITA to deal with. I am awaiting more fo on this steel dragon unit...sounds very cool to me.
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Offline crazypj

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2011, 11:50:15 PM »
Ok, again my stacks have a very fine screen covering the throat of the carb

and VJM? what does that mean?

VJM=Vintage Japanese Motorcycle

 Interesting thing's about 'really fine screen'
1. it only keeps larger rocks out of motor, the dust particles that cause most wear go right through the mesh
2. the restriction on fine mesh can be as much as 65% of the area it's covering so you have way LESS airflow than stock
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2011, 12:24:37 AM »
Quote
the biggest compromise IS the stock airbox as it was designed to work okay in all conditions and driving styles.. but not optimally.
the stock airbox has 4 velocity stacks built in which are needed. you get enough filter area behind that and compensate with the change in jetting, (which includes needles, pilots, slide cutouts, air jets, etc) and you can get it to work right. considering how small the stock opening is in the box it def bottle necks there. opening the hole opens the proverbial can of worms to a degree, and it goes on from there.

I wouldn't say it bottle necks at all, it supplies a good supply of air to the carbs which is stable and not influenced by side winds and turbulence, which is one reason why modern performance bikes still run airboxes. Unless you are running a big port performance orientated CB there is no need to alter the stock airfilter system at all.
Actually, because of the restricted flow of the heads on these bikes {sohc/4's} the airbox, which wasn't just designed to fit,  was engineered to work as efficiently as possible in all conditions, is the best filter system on these bikes, they actually aren't that restricted and flow well, i have used them on big bore cb's with big ported heads and had no problems at all, its pods that i have had trouble with and so have thousands of others, its well documented. The stock airbox is even better with the replacement K&N filter and when set up correctly suffers none of the problems associated with pods. I have seen plenty of other bikes that do work well with pods but the Honda 4 runs better with the airbox. I am going to run fuel injection on my 1000cc/4 K2 and am using a modified stock airbox, i am also going to buy one of Tintops filters for my other 970cc F1 build but need to find stacks that work with the RS34 Mikuni's first.
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Offline dave500

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2011, 02:45:36 AM »
the question is whats the best option?,you have nothing on there now,no mention of engine mods so go with the stock set up,even with mods.

Offline CafeWild34

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2011, 04:02:21 AM »
Thanks for all the replies I really appreciate it. I feel like I learned alot. I ordered a stock air filter till I can afford one of those Tintop setups because tthey look bad ass and there seems to be alot of good tthings said about them. Thanks again!

Offline dtmmil

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2011, 04:58:54 AM »
Hey retrorocket, question for you, still wondering about the tintop setup in the rain, does it get wet, or does it repel water? And you say you have run pods and had troubles, have you ever tried stacks? The trouble with pods is the reason I run stacks. And I know of a guy from canada that put fuel injection on his cb750, he used a gsxr throttle body setup, its a pretty cool setup.

And I am not so much concerned about how much airflow, not enough to start doing mathmatical equations, but I know I had to jet up with them, and they look way better to me then the stock airbox. My bike is the one in my avatar, there is no way I am putting a stock airbox back in it.

Offline TicoCafe

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2011, 08:15:57 AM »
Quote
Most of us prefer small and sexy to big and ugly, especially when it comes to women. But like women, small and sexy air "filters" often create more problems than they solve. And they usually can't cook. If the appearance is what's most important to you, then you'll be choosing to deal with the unintended consequences... Stu

LOL... I will have to agree to that!!!
Pura Vida!

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2011, 04:17:28 AM »
Hey retrorocket, question for you, still wondering about the tintop setup in the rain, does it get wet, or does it repel water? And you say you have run pods and had troubles, have you ever tried stacks? The trouble with pods is the reason I run stacks. And I know of a guy from canada that put fuel injection on his cb750, he used a gsxr throttle body setup, its a pretty cool setup.

And I am not so much concerned about how much airflow, not enough to start doing mathmatical equations, but I know I had to jet up with them, and they look way better to me then the stock airbox. My bike is the one in my avatar, there is no way I am putting a stock airbox back in it.

The only time i would use unfiltered stacks is at the track, yes i have used stacks but i value my expensive internals more than to run without filters. Not to sure about TT's set up in the rain but these days that doesn't worry me because i have no need to ride in the rain, and its more likely to suck moisture in when standing because your knees and airflow keep the rain off them whilst you are moving. I build performance bikes for myself and always source the best available parts to make that happen, carillo rods, heavy duty primary chains, back cut gearboxes and everything else, most pods are crap and are a total compromise, form over function but i can tell you that TT's filter on a hot 836 with big ports and all the gear , performed faultlessly.
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Offline jawntybull

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2011, 12:12:55 AM »
I've had a problem with unburnt fuel smoke on the highway for a few weeks and eventually solved it today; the fix included dropping the jet sizes from 115s to 110s and removing the air filter. When I put the airfilter back in it starts to smoke again (run rich) but not as badly as it was.

This tells me the filter has quite a big effect on the carbs, and certainly has to be matched with the right jetting. If you go stock you just follow the stock parameters, but in my case I had carbs from the F model on a K7 bike.

The filter is HiFlo and I wonder if its not that good quality. Any comments on these filters?

Also, I want to go back to having a filter and expect to have to drop the main jets a size or two at the same time - any experience with how many jet sizes a typically filter represents?
Bandit 1250S, DR650, CB750K

Offline Danno

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Re: Best Air Filter Option
« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2011, 12:29:44 AM »
I have owned my cb 550 for 27 years and in all that time the only thing that i have found makes the bike run right is the stock airbox you can get close with other setups but most of them make the flat spot that they all have more prominent and then there is the intake noise that other systems have I am not a purist like many others on this site but in this case I don't think you can do better than the stock airbox these carbs like undisturbed consistent air draw with a little resistence
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