Author Topic: GM ac delco alternator to fix our charging woes?  (Read 20246 times)

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Offline BAchvytrk

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Re: GM ac delco alternator to fix our charging woes?
« Reply #100 on: September 20, 2011, 08:34:08 PM »
Here's a pic of the set up i made for this xs650 chopper i did last winter. ITs just a single wire self inginting, self regulating 63 amp alternator from a small block chevy. FOr the pulley, i left the rotor on the crank, and machined a pulley that threaded onto the outside of the rotor where the puller went. Worked like a charm, the battery i used was from an old shovelhead. if you want some closer pics, i could probably find some, this was all i had on my computer off hand. I have another pulley if you know anyone with an xs650 that might want to try this.
71 FLH
74 Ironhead
1965 305
1971 SL350
1974 750k
1975 550F
1977 550K
1980 KZ440
1980 CB900F

Offline TwoTired

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Re: GM ac delco alternator to fix our charging woes?
« Reply #101 on: September 20, 2011, 11:04:29 PM »
So I dont have a tach on this bike....I just tested the wires going to the regulator earlier for sure. Is there a way to test the regulator itself. Or do I need to have the battery hooked to it? With the rectifier being bad , common sense would tell me that the only way to check the regulator would be as a standalone and I dont know if that is possible.

Sorry, about your bad rectifier.
You can't can't really do a performance test on the regulator until the alternator can peak the power going to the battery.
There are a couple of rudimentary tests you can do, though. Set the meter to the 200Ω position for these tests. Do these tests without any of the bike's wires connected to it. 
Look closely at the vreg terminals and you should find them labeled, I, F, and E, which I believe stands for Ignition, Field, and Earth.
The first test would be to verify that the I terminal (black wire connection) has zero resistance to the F terminal (White wire connection).
This Vreg internal connection allows the alternator to make as much power as it can to charge the battery.
The vreg internal connection would be broken and a 10 ohm resistor placed in series, when the Vreg senses the battery voltage has risen to 14.5V. Since you aren't applying any voltage from the battery with the vreg removed from the bike, you could physically mash the points inside the vreg with your fingers and force the contacts apart, then put a thin piece of paper in there, the meter should change display to 10 ohms.  If you continue to mash the points arm so it makes the lower points contact, the resistance should fall a bit lower, by about 1 more Ω, (Do remember to subtract the meter's display error, I am posting ideal numbers on the display with your particular meter's error factor unaccounted).
Move the ohmmeter probes to the F and E terminals, the meter should read 46Ω.
Now remove the paper being held by and from the contact points, meter should now display 35Ω.

If all goes as described, you have now proved the Vreg is electrically able to function.  Yet to be proven are the voltage trip points where the device moves the contact arm and changes what is distributed to the field terminal from the I terminal.  You need a variable voltage source (lab power supply) for this, or a battery being monitored and charged to full capacity.
However, if the Vreg seems electrically able, I would restore the Rectifier to full function, attach the Vreg to the bike, and then see what the voltages go to at the battery when the engine is revved up.  Could be, it still has the proper adjustment to do its original job.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Mercuno

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Re: GM ac delco alternator to fix our charging woes?
« Reply #102 on: September 21, 2011, 05:56:02 AM »
You are the man TT.  I feel like an electrical mastermind now haha. If I can only find the right refridgerator and nascar suit. Thank you soooooo much.

Offline Mercuno

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Re: GM ac delco alternator to fix our charging woes?
« Reply #103 on: September 25, 2011, 02:34:54 PM »
Well I got my rectifier in from oregon parts and installed it. I put the battery in fresh from charge and it was at 13.4 volts. I cranked the bike and at idle it was at 12.8. I have no tach so i slowly revved it up and at high revs I was getting 13.2 volts. sooo less than charged battery. Common sense says vreg needs replacing???

KingCustomCycles.com

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Re: GM ac delco alternator to fix our charging woes?
« Reply #104 on: September 25, 2011, 03:45:48 PM »
Cranking would have dropped the battery below that 13.4, then charging brought it back up quickly.  What seems to be the problem?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: GM ac delco alternator to fix our charging woes?
« Reply #105 on: September 25, 2011, 06:07:35 PM »
A battery fresh off the charge will hold a surcharge for a short time.  After a two hour rest i should go down to 12.6 - 12.8V.
Of course, any load on the battery will rapidly bleed off any surcharge.
The fact that the charging system raised it back up to 13.2V says the charging system is working.

If you hold the throttle long enough, it should reach 14.5V eventually.  That's where the Vreg should tell the alternator to "back Off".  And this is where measuring gets tricky again.

Let's say the bike load was 120 Watts.  The Alternator at full output makes 150W, with 30 watts left over to recharge the battery.  But, when the battery is full the Vreg cuts the output of the alternator by about Half, or 75Watts.  This isn't enough to run the bike's 120W load, so it takes some power out of the battery, which lowers the voltage.  The Vreg senses this and turns the alternator back on.  This off-on-off-on cycle repeats (oscillates) at a random time period, so that meters will sometimes only see an average between 14.5 and 12.8 V.  13.65V is the exact median between these, but spending a little more off time than on time can skew the voltage read average.  However, let's say you had LESS than a 120 W load, such as when headlight off, then the vreg might spend more time making the alternator do 75W rather than 150W, and the average system voltage would be lower than the median 13.65V.  There is yet another dependency, relating to the test instrument sampling methodology.  Being a digital instrument, the device takes samples of the voltage in a time duration and sampling rate that the designers choose.  Further, that sample is only passed to the display at yet another time interval.
If you have ever seen video of a turning propeller you've seen the effects of sampling rates with an un-synchronized event.  Sometimes, the propeller appears to turn backwards in video, when it most certainly never does.  This is called "aliasing" in the digital measurement world, where the display of the instrument does not accurately represent what is being measured.  Additionally, digital instruments can also "average" several measurements and display only the average of what was measured.  If there are "ripples" riding on a DC voltage potential, you may not know of the actual peak and valleys present at the point of measurement, without more sophisticated measuring equipment.  Some meters have "peak hold" button or switch.  Oscilloscopes, can display the waveform riding on a DC level.

From your report, I'd say that there is nothing wrong with your VReg.  With some more data, there may be a slight adjustment needed.  But, it is certainly trying to do it's job.

Were I you, I would next compare the voltage at the battery terminals with the the actual voltage arriving at the Black and Green terminals of the VREG.  Surely, you can't expect any Vreg to do it's job correctly if the bike's wiring, connectors, and switches lose voltage before distributing to the VREG. 

If you are quick you can simply compare the voltages measured at the two points mentioned and find the differential.  Another way is to place one probe on the Vreg black terminal and the other on Battery POS terminal.  The meter will display the voltage lost in that pathway. Record and report.
You will also make another measurement between the green wire at the Vreg and the Battery NEG terminal. The meter will display the voltage lost in that pathway.  Record and report.  Then you add the two measurements together to obtain the difference voltage the regulator "sees" from actual battery voltage.

Another reason to know have this measurement, is that when the alternator needs to make the full 150 Watts, it will need every bit of battery voltage to achieve full power.  The VReg passes the black wire voltage to the alternator, when full power is required.  But, if the VREG receives 2-3V less than what the Battery actually has, then the alternator cannot make the full 150 Watts when required.

The VREG's most important job is to keep the battery from overcharging above 14.5V.  Anything lower and it will let the alternator make as much power as the RPM and load will allow.

Cranking the bike with the electric starter takes some power out of the battery.  So, it was no longer full after that event.  Even if the starter was only drawing 25 AMPS, that is still 250-300 watts per second being drained.  Recall that the charging system will only charge the battery at a 30-40 Watt per second rate, and ONLY when the engine is revved above 2500-3000 RPM.  So, you will have to rev the engine 10 times longer than the time the starter button was pushed to restore the battery to full.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Mercuno

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Re: GM ac delco alternator to fix our charging woes?
« Reply #106 on: September 26, 2011, 10:36:35 PM »
THANK YOU Two Tired.....I am happily cruising around and charging my battery without having to unhook it when I get somewhere or when I come home. I posted a how to in the electronics section for the rest of us newbies to look at. You saved me a huuuuge headache and some greenbacks. I definitely owe you a tall one.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: GM ac delco alternator to fix our charging woes?
« Reply #107 on: September 26, 2011, 11:52:45 PM »
Happy Cruising!
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.