Topic: weldable?

[burlybear]

Found some bondo covering up a bit of chain slap.  Is this weldable without splitting cases?

[burlybear]

Or is JB weld the fix?

[lucky]

You cannot weld on the case safely while the engine is complete.

Clean the case with brake cleaner and rough sand paper and use JB weld.
Try to use the overnight 8 hour JB weld. It is stronger than the 10 minute JB weld.
Immaculate cleaning of the case is essential.

When aluminum is welded the aluminum wants to give off all of the heat as fast as possible.
all that heat will radiate out and melt rubber seals and gaskets etc.,
Any oil would smoke, catch fire, and prevent a weld that does not have holes in it.
There could even be warpage of the case. There is always some shrinkage.
The time to do a proper weld repair on a engine case is when the case is all apart and spotlessly clean. TIG welded by a competent welder with aluminum.

Many of the CB750 engine cases have holes in them in this area of the front countershaft sprocket and many have repairs. When the engine gets rebuilt is the time to do a proper repair.

The sprocket teeth are too close to the case . If it is the #630 chain and sprocket I would change to the #530 chain. Modern chains are stronger.

Also try to get a smaller sprocket on the front if possible. 17 or 18 T max.
Depends on the year of the CB750.

[MCRider]

On an engine in original trim, the proximity of the chain or sprockets to the case is NOT an issue.

I cannot imagine for the life of me how one can come up with that conclusion.

Damage to the cases occur when the chain breaks and crams itself in between the case and sprocket. No smaller sprocket or smaller chain will fix that problem.  Many ancillary causes have been postulated for the breaking of a chain. The only one that makes sense to me is a poorly routed battery tube allows acid to drip on the chain.

In the case of the 500/550, one cannot use a larger chain (ORing) as it will hit the cases. But that isn't in "original trim".

[Terry in Australia]

Actually, before Lucky went off on a tangent about chain and sprocket sizes, I thought his advice was real good. I think the battery routing theory is balls, the fact is, the chain technology and metallurgy was sub par, I've broken chains on bikes from the era that didn't even have batteries! Regardless, you can't weld it in the frame, so just JB weld it like Lucky suggests, and it'll probably outlive your bike. Cheers, Terry.

[MCRider]

Actually, before Lucky went off on a tangent about chain and sprocket sizes, I thought his advice was real good. I think the battery routing theory is balls, the fact is, the chain technology and metallurgy was sub par, I've broken chains on bikes from the era that didn't even have batteries! Regardless, you can't weld it in the frame, so just JB weld it like Lucky suggests, and it'll probably outlive your bike. Cheers, Terry.

There were and are other reasons for a chain to break, certainly. But as far as the CB750 issue, I was in the parts departments warrantying cases during this era. None of the so-called reasons, sprocket sizes, horsepower,  including metalurgy ever added up. There were plenty of bikes making decent horsepower etc that weren't breaking chains with the frequency of the CB750. Unfortunately the timing of the fixes was so coincidental that we'll never know for sure which it was. New chain tech, Honda's Service Bulleitn on routing the tube, sprocket sizes, etc. We'll never agree on this, but I have my basis as do you.

But to the OPs question, and Lucky's answer, and Terry's comments, sure JB Weld is a good fix and no need to break down a perfectly good engine to weld that damage.

[burlybear]

This?! 

It's just a scratch, nothing to fix there, imho.

From that angle, yes just a scratch. This was my hope... Further cleaning revealed a 4x2mm hole.

Thanks for all the advice.

10hr jb will be my fix.

[CycleRanger]

Well if there's a hole that's a completely different situation.

[BobbyR]

In Motorcyclist Magazine they decladred the CB750 as the bike of the century. They had some interviews with the first people who tested the bike in the US. They were told to run them at the redline. The riders are quited as saying that if you ket off at high speed the chain doubled over the front sprocket and either broke the chain and hit the case or just whacked the case. They said it was a problem that they finally fixed.

[MCRider]

In Motorcyclist Magazine they decladred the CB750 as the bike of the century. They had some interviews with the first people who tested the bike in the US. They were told to run them at the redline. The riders are quited as saying that if you ket off at high speed the chain doubled over the front sprocket and either broke the chain and hit the case or just whacked the case. They said it was a problem that they finally fixed.

How far out of adjustment would a chain have to be to let that happen? I don't see it. To me, that's one of the many stab in the dark, grasping at straws explanations, like the sprocket size, that proliferated at the time.

Could be I suppose, I can't see it.

What that doesn't explain is the chains that broke under acceleration, or the chains that broke on bikes that were just tooling down the road.

Thanks for the story though. That's actually one I'd never heard, and I was there.   

[BobbyR]

In Motorcyclist Magazine they decladred the CB750 as the bike of the century. They had some interviews with the first people who tested the bike in the US. They were told to run them at the redline. The riders are quited as saying that if you ket off at high speed the chain doubled over the front sprocket and either broke the chain and hit the case or just whacked the case. They said it was a problem that they finally fixed.

How far out of adjustment would a chain have to be to let that happen? I don't see it. To me, that's one of the many stab in the dark, grasping at straws explanations, like the sprocket size, that proliferated at the time.

Could be I suppose, I can't see it.

What that doesn't explain is the chains that broke under acceleration, or the chains that broke on bikes that were just tooling down the road.

Thanks for the story though. That's actually one I'd never heard, and I was there.   

 Honda Japan called Hansen in fall of ’68 and asked for two American Honda representatives to assist with final validation testing of the CB750, to make sure the new bike would satisfy American expectations. The plan was to take bikes directly from the U.S. dealer show at Las Vegas and conduct reliability testing in the Nevada desert, then return to Japan for a full battery of performance tests. Hansen nominated Bob Jameson and Bob Young.

Jameson and Young left the dealer show with three pre-production CB750s and a van loaded with tools and Japanese engineers, including engine designer Minoru Sato. “They were all named Sato,” recalls Jameson, laughing. “M. Sato did the motor, C. Sato did the chassis—there were something like four Satos in the 750 program!”
The team quartered in a hotel near the Hoover Dam and rode nearly 5000 miles in five days. “We rode from Boulder City to a place called Searchlight,” recalls Jameson. “Fifty miles one way, and our only instruction was never leave the red zone on the tach. They wanted to run the machines to death and see what broke first!”

So, what broke? “Nothing,” says Jameson. “Our only concern was the drivetrains—when you snapped the throttle shut, the top strand of chain would sometimes climb over the sprocket, breaking the crankcase or the chain.” Unfortunately, Jameson notes, this issue wasn’t properly resolved before the bike went to market.

Read more: http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/features/122_1209_the_making_of_the_honda_cb750/viewall.html#ixzz26JNvgROJ

[lucky]

In Motorcyclist Magazine they decladred the CB750 as the bike of the century. They had some interviews with the first people who tested the bike in the US. They were told to run them at the redline. The riders are quited as saying that if you ket off at high speed the chain doubled over the front sprocket and either broke the chain and hit the case or just whacked the case. They said it was a problem that they finally fixed.

How far out of adjustment would a chain have to be to let that happen? I don't see it. To me, that's one of the many stab in the dark, grasping at straws explanations, like the sprocket size, that proliferated at the time.

Could be I suppose, I can't see it.

What that doesn't explain is the chains that broke under acceleration, or the chains that broke on bikes that were just tooling down the road.

Thanks for the story though. That's actually one I'd never heard, and I was there.   

The only reason I even mentioned the sprocket size is that the 18 tooth stock sprocket with chain is very close to the case and since the original poster had damage, I feel that either he or a previous owner had not kept the chain properly adjusted so with a 17 tooth sprocket it would give a little more room for clearance.

So you can quit  bad mouthing me.

BTW on the 1977-78 engine the cases were made thicker in that area.
But those #630 chains still broke, and chains still made holes in cases.
The #630 chain is VERY heavy and has a lot of inertia to break the case.
That is why I suggest getting a smaller lighter weight chain.
It was not until later (1980?) that Honda made a device to prevent the chain from hitting the case. Just go look at any CB750 how close the chain is to the engine case.

[MCRider]

In Motorcyclist Magazine they decladred the CB750 as the bike of the century. They had some interviews with the first people who tested the bike in the US. They were told to run them at the redline. The riders are quited as saying that if you ket off at high speed the chain doubled over the front sprocket and either broke the chain and hit the case or just whacked the case. They said it was a problem that they finally fixed.

How far out of adjustment would a chain have to be to let that happen? I don't see it. To me, that's one of the many stab in the dark, grasping at straws explanations, like the sprocket size, that proliferated at the time.

Could be I suppose, I can't see it.

What that doesn't explain is the chains that broke under acceleration, or the chains that broke on bikes that were just tooling down the road.

Thanks for the story though. That's actually one I'd never heard, and I was there.   

 Honda Japan called Hansen in fall of ’68 and asked for two American Honda representatives to assist with final validation testing of the CB750, to make sure the new bike would satisfy American expectations. The plan was to take bikes directly from the U.S. dealer show at Las Vegas and conduct reliability testing in the Nevada desert, then return to Japan for a full battery of performance tests. Hansen nominated Bob Jameson and Bob Young.

Jameson and Young left the dealer show with three pre-production CB750s and a van loaded with tools and Japanese engineers, including engine designer Minoru Sato. “They were all named Sato,” recalls Jameson, laughing. “M. Sato did the motor, C. Sato did the chassis—there were something like four Satos in the 750 program!”
The team quartered in a hotel near the Hoover Dam and rode nearly 5000 miles in five days. “We rode from Boulder City to a place called Searchlight,” recalls Jameson. “Fifty miles one way, and our only instruction was never leave the red zone on the tach. They wanted to run the machines to death and see what broke first!”

So, what broke? “Nothing,” says Jameson. “Our only concern was the drivetrains—when you snapped the throttle shut, the top strand of chain would sometimes climb over the sprocket, breaking the crankcase or the chain.” Unfortunately, Jameson notes, this issue wasn’t properly resolved before the bike went to market.

Read more: http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/features/122_1209_the_making_of_the_honda_cb750/viewall.html#ixzz26JNvgROJ

All I can say is, how on earth is that even physically possible? If Jameson really knew that was what was happening, would Honda have let it out to the public?  I mean I'll give cred where its due, but...huh?

We'll never know for sure but the only thing that has ever made consistent sense to me was the battery tube/acid etching. OCICBW

Thanks for the link. I'd heard of the article but never seen it.

[Terry in Australia]

In Motorcyclist Magazine they decladred the CB750 as the bike of the century. They had some interviews with the first people who tested the bike in the US. They were told to run them at the redline. The riders are quited as saying that if you ket off at high speed the chain doubled over the front sprocket and either broke the chain and hit the case or just whacked the case. They said it was a problem that they finally fixed.

How far out of adjustment would a chain have to be to let that happen? I don't see it. To me, that's one of the many stab in the dark, grasping at straws explanations, like the sprocket size, that proliferated at the time.

Could be I suppose, I can't see it.

What that doesn't explain is the chains that broke under acceleration, or the chains that broke on bikes that were just tooling down the road.

Thanks for the story though. That's actually one I'd never heard, and I was there.   

 Honda Japan called Hansen in fall of ’68 and asked for two American Honda representatives to assist with final validation testing of the CB750, to make sure the new bike would satisfy American expectations. The plan was to take bikes directly from the U.S. dealer show at Las Vegas and conduct reliability testing in the Nevada desert, then return to Japan for a full battery of performance tests. Hansen nominated Bob Jameson and Bob Young.

Jameson and Young left the dealer show with three pre-production CB750s and a van loaded with tools and Japanese engineers, including engine designer Minoru Sato. “They were all named Sato,” recalls Jameson, laughing. “M. Sato did the motor, C. Sato did the chassis—there were something like four Satos in the 750 program!”
The team quartered in a hotel near the Hoover Dam and rode nearly 5000 miles in five days. “We rode from Boulder City to a place called Searchlight,” recalls Jameson. “Fifty miles one way, and our only instruction was never leave the red zone on the tach. They wanted to run the machines to death and see what broke first!”

So, what broke? “Nothing,” says Jameson. “Our only concern was the drivetrains—when you snapped the throttle shut, the top strand of chain would sometimes climb over the sprocket, breaking the crankcase or the chain.” Unfortunately, Jameson notes, this issue wasn’t properly resolved before the bike went to market.

Read more: http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/features/122_1209_the_making_of_the_honda_cb750/viewall.html#ixzz26JNvgROJ

Thanks Bobby, while I know that the battery hose routing story is the most common of accepted possibilities (I bought my first shiny new CB750 in 1978 Ron, so I guess I qualify as "being there" too?) it's good to see something that flies in the face of that lame-ass theory.

How is it even possible? Pretty easy when you think about it. Think about your primary chain for a moment. Primary chains occasionally break, and commonly hit the inside of the top engine case, on overrun, particularly in racing situations, when after redlining your engine, you suddenly shut the throttle to drop into a corner, and the top run of the chain (the loose part) "whips".

To combat this phenomena, Honda installed a spring loaded chain tensioner that kept the chain under tension all the time. Same/same with the camchain, to stop it from whipping and the chain jumping a few teeth on your camshaft, it's kept under tension all the time. Of course, even with the tensioner installed this can still happen, as many of us have seen.

Drive chain tensioners were common on dirt bikes of the era, but rarely made it onto production road bikes. Maybe it was too expensive, or maybe it was a case of "Form over Function", or maybe Honda just didn't fcuking know why their chains were breaking, but for whatever reason, the only chain that wasn't protected against this "whipping" phenomena, was the drivechain.

To attempt to answer Ron's question about why the chains broke when bikes weren't being raced or ridden hard, it might be a bit like why the axle broke in my Chevy a couple of days after I was doing some burnouts, I'd probably weakened it then, and it took a few days to completely let go.

Of course, it could just be that the guys who fronted up to Ron's shop with a warranty claim were fibbing when they said, "Oh no, I wasn't riding it hard, in fact, it just fell off on my way to church.............."  

[Xnavylfr]

Very good info to ponder on , but if you look at the pictures of the sprocket and chain , I would say THAT front sprocket is COMPLETELY worn out.. Teeth are angled and NO depth to the saddle where the chain roller sits.. CHANGE THE SPROCKET AND CHAIN,,, CHECK REAR SPROCKET ALSO!!!!   Now that will REALLY cause a chain to jump the sprocket and hit the case..


Xnavylfr(CHUCK)

[lucky]

That is a great observation about the sprocket in the photo on the first post Xnavylfr.
That sprocket is a real ....well you know.

[MCRider]

Terry: By being there I was thinking more like 1970-71, at the height of the chain breaking episodes. A child of 19, I would eavesdrop on the parts manager/service manager/owner pow wows. The underlying current was "what the heck is going on, is Honda going to back us on this, how are we going to get paid, etc?". I was at Burke's Honda in Ft Lauderdale. 3rd largest Honda dealer by volume in US. We sold at least 1 750 a day and usually more. I can remember having 2-4 bikes in the shop at one time with broken cranckcases. Sure there could be warranty fraud. But you can usually smell what's real when you see enough of them. Which brings me to this.

In case one was wondering how the battery tube could be an issue. we set up bikes at night for extra money. The Svc manager and whoever he could talk into staying. (And we were often not supervised and well it was the 70s) The bikes came in a crate, (2 per in the case of 175s and 350s) Handlebars were off, front wheel was off, seat and tank IIRC, no oil and...no battery. There was no training, we just hacked into the crates and screwed it together the best we knew how. Owners were happy if we didn't dent the tanks. Battery was the last thing. We'd juice them up right then, and they would boil and hiss and fume. We'd put them in the bike and wherever the tube ended up was where it ended up. That stuff was nasty, and we were juiciing batteries like an assembly line, 20 or 30 a night. Lost a lot of blue jeans in those days. Just a whiff of the fume was enough to destroy anything it touched. No rubber gloves or aprons in those days.

The example of the primary chain and cam chain tensioners is interesting but not compelling to me at least. Drive chains tensioners on street bikes are not necessary as the pitch is so much larger and compared to dirt bikes the wheel travel is so much less. For a drive train to overlap itself would require so much slop, it would be nearly unrideable.  The tooth size of the crank sprockets is so small compared to a drive sprocket... oh well.

Not trying to change anyone's mind, just adding some flavor. I stopped setting up bikes by early 1972. That's about when the chain breaking began to abate. Maybe someone at Honda decided to look at the broken chains (we had to send them back) under a microscope and realized the "hydrogen embrittlement" problem from the acid. It takes but a drop or heavy fumes to do the damage. Maybe there was some internal training coming out by then. The Service Bulletin from Honda re the battery tube didn't come out till 1973 IIRC.

As Lucky says even some 1977/78 models with the 630 chain still broke them. This would lead one more to the acid theory than to "better materials" as the cause. Maybe the bike was set up correctly from the dealer, but the owner messed it up when replacing the battery.

And finally, all the printed material I've read (and granted I've not read it all) from major chain manufacturers have warnings about the proximity of the battery tube to the chain. To this day. Like this:
http://www.bellrpg.net/hilltopcamperonline/atv/grouppart.asp?MAJ=010&PRI=026&SEC=125&GRP=434
http://www.powersportsnetwork.com/enthusiasts/catalog_item_detail.asp?catalog=7627&levelcode=64898&product=1230158&cattype=&ProductCategoryCode=

So I simply acknowledge that every possible way for a chain to break and break the crankcases has occurred. It is my position that the lion's share of the CB750 chain breakage which occurred early in the model run was from battery acid.

Enough of that. C U   

[ekpent]

I was in a minor accident once with one of my 750's. The bike got a little damage but in the process the chain had skipped a tooth on the countershaft sprocket,maybe from stopping very quickly along with other factors,created the "flying wedge' and punched the dreaded hole in the crankcases. Chain never did break though.

[BobbyR]

In Motorcyclist Magazine they decladred the CB750 as the bike of the century. They had some interviews with the first people who tested the bike in the US. They were told to run them at the redline. The riders are quited as saying that if you ket off at high speed the chain doubled over the front sprocket and either broke the chain and hit the case or just whacked the case. They said it was a problem that they finally fixed.

How far out of adjustment would a chain have to be to let that happen? I don't see it. To me, that's one of the many stab in the dark, grasping at straws explanations, like the sprocket size, that proliferated at the time.

Could be I suppose, I can't see it.

What that doesn't explain is the chains that broke under acceleration, or the chains that broke on bikes that were just tooling down the road.

Thanks for the story though. That's actually one I'd never heard, and I was there.   

 Honda Japan called Hansen in fall of ’68 and asked for two American Honda representatives to assist with final validation testing of the CB750, to make sure the new bike would satisfy American expectations. The plan was to take bikes directly from the U.S. dealer show at Las Vegas and conduct reliability testing in the Nevada desert, then return to Japan for a full battery of performance tests. Hansen nominated Bob Jameson and Bob Young.

Jameson and Young left the dealer show with three pre-production CB750s and a van loaded with tools and Japanese engineers, including engine designer Minoru Sato. “They were all named Sato,” recalls Jameson, laughing. “M. Sato did the motor, C. Sato did the chassis—there were something like four Satos in the 750 program!”
The team quartered in a hotel near the Hoover Dam and rode nearly 5000 miles in five days. “We rode from Boulder City to a place called Searchlight,” recalls Jameson. “Fifty miles one way, and our only instruction was never leave the red zone on the tach. They wanted to run the machines to death and see what broke first!”

So, what broke? “Nothing,” says Jameson. “Our only concern was the drivetrains—when you snapped the throttle shut, the top strand of chain would sometimes climb over the sprocket, breaking the crankcase or the chain.” Unfortunately, Jameson notes, this issue wasn’t properly resolved before the bike went to market.

Read more: http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/features/122_1209_the_making_of_the_honda_cb750/viewall.html#ixzz26JNvgROJ

Thanks Bobby, while I know that the battery hose routing story is the most common of accepted possibilities (I bought my first shiny new CB750 in 1978 Ron, so I guess I qualify as "being there" too?) it's good to see something that flies in the face of that lame-ass theory.

How is it even possible? Pretty easy when you think about it. Think about your primary chain for a moment. Primary chains occasionally break, and commonly hit the inside of the top engine case, on overrun, particularly in racing situations, when after redlining your engine, you suddenly shut the throttle to drop into a corner, and the top run of the chain (the loose part) "whips".

To combat this phenomena, Honda installed a spring loaded chain tensioner that kept the chain under tension all the time. Same/same with the camchain, to stop it from whipping and the chain jumping a few teeth on your camshaft, it's kept under tension all the time. Of course, even with the tensioner installed this can still happen, as many of us have seen.

Drive chain tensioners were common on dirt bikes of the era, but rarely made it onto production road bikes. Maybe it was too expensive, or maybe it was a case of "Form over Function", or maybe Honda just didn't fcuking know why their chains were breaking, but for whatever reason, the only chain that wasn't protected against this "whipping" phenomena, was the drivechain.

To attempt to answer Ron's question about why the chains broke when bikes weren't being raced or ridden hard, it might be a bit like why the axle broke in my Chevy a couple of days after I was doing some burnouts, I'd probably weakened it then, and it took a few days to completely let go.

Of course, it could just be that the guys who fronted up to Ron's shop with a warranty claim were fibbing when they said, "Oh no, I wasn't riding it hard, in fact, it just fell off on my way to church.............."

I work for a Japaneese Company. You learn quickly that management tends to filter out bad news. I am sure the Honda Techs reported their findings.

Mamagement declares it an unusual event unlikely to happen in the field. If it becomes and issue, they do field mods as needed.

[MCRider]

Quote "I work for a Japaneese Company. You learn quickly that management tends to filter out bad news. I am sure the Honda Techs reported their findings.

Mamagement declares it an unusual event unlikely to happen in the field. If it becomes and issue, they do field mods as needed."

I believe this entirely. As to the Jameson issue, no doubt he told Honda. They probably reacted as I did, "how is that possible".

Jameson was correct there was an issue with the drive chain. But in my opinion his diagnosis was wrong, or at least did not apply to what then became the issue of a rash of failures, of a highly random nature, occuring in decel, acccel, and steady drive situations. Maybe it was right for his experience.

Only the acid can explain the broader problem. IMO

[BobbyR]

Quote "I work for a Japaneese Company. You learn quickly that management tends to filter out bad news. I am sure the Honda Techs reported their findings.

Mamagement declares it an unusual event unlikely to happen in the field. If it becomes and issue, they do field mods as needed."

I believe this entirely. As to the Jameson issue, no doubt he told Honda. They probably reacted as I did, "how is that possible".

Jameson was correct there was an issue with the drive chain. But in my opinion his diagnosis was wrong, or at least did not apply to what then became the issue of a rash of failures, of a highly random nature, occuring in decel, acccel, and steady drive situations. Maybe it was right for his experience.

Only the acid can explain the broader problem. IMO

Fair enough. Now, how would you suggest I and others route the tubes from the battery. Even if it involves using a linger tube ar fastening it somewhere undrneath?

[MCRider]

Length is key. Straight down is OK if it exits low enough that no matter from what angle, sidestand, tip over, etc., acid drip cannot reach the chain. I've got mine zip tied to the rt side centerstand clamp. And I had to find a longer tube as the one that came with the battery was not long enough to suit me.

[burlybear]

Looks like I have some engine karma...

This engine is a 76K I bought to replace my 71k while I rebuild it. The 71's cam-chain tunnel was worn from chain slap side to side, wearing two good size holes though to the outside.  I know the 71 was rode hard and most likely raced.  The speedo shows 60,000mi but it is not stock.  My only history on the 76k is it had 38,000 miles on it and the PO used it for 6,000 of those before he pulled it three years ago. 

The chain break issue seems to have a few good explanations as to cause, maybe we can take a look at the cam-chain tunnel issue next?

Here are some recent posts with this issue, both unresolved has to cause:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=112620.0
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=112467.msg1265291#msg1265291

Thanks for the history lesson!

[Terry in Australia]

I was in a minor accident once with one of my 750's. The bike got a little damage but in the process the chain had skipped a tooth on the countershaft sprocket,maybe from stopping very quickly along with other factors,created the "flying wedge' and punched the dreaded hole in the crankcases. Chain never did break though.

Thanks Eric, I had a similar issue with my first Suzuki GS1000. The engine came straight out of a drag bike (seemed like a good idea at the time.........) anyway "chain whip" took a lump outta the engine's top case when the PO backed off hard after a 9 second run. Didn't break the chain, just took a lump outta the case. A handfull of modellers clay and half a tub of Devcon did a half reasonable job of fixing it.   

Ron, I had a similar upbringing to you, I worked at my cousin's Suzuki dealership after school and on weekends helping with the "pre-delivery" assembly of GT250's 380's, 550's and 750's, lots of dirt bikes etc from 1972, to when I joined the army in 1977. Suzuki's broke chains just as regularly as Honda's back then, and my cuz had to occasionally repair or replace an engine case under warranty. I asked my cousin today why he thought they were breaking and he said, "#$%* quality Jap chains". His "fix" was to replace it with an English or European chain, and magically, it all went away. I asked him about chain whip under decelleration and he said it was possible, but he didn't think he'd ever experienced it.

I guess we'll both have to just keep drinking our own favourite brand of Kool Aid. Cheers, Terry.    

[trueblue]

Fair enough. Now, how would you suggest I and others route the tubes from the battery. Even if it involves using a linger tube ar fastening it somewhere undrneath?

There are better options out there now, get rid of the old POS lead acid battery and fit a gel battery, they are fully sealed, don't have an overflow tube to worry about, and don't go flat if you leave the bike sit for a month.