Topic: After cam swap, won't start | Block off pics

[MRieck]

Thanks again - oil is black, smoke is white, forgot the rule and the giant clouds seen and or ingested.
 
 Guess my cam is out 180. 

There have been at least 2 threads here where a bike had white smoke. A poster persisted in claiming this was a rich condition and convinced the OP to lean out the bottom end. The smoke went away. I knoooooooow. I'd never heard of this either. White/blueish white smoke = oil is how i was raised. Maybe should modify to: = oil or rich condition.

I know a rich condition should be dark smoke, but we'll see.

I have a new motor that smokes. I am getting ready to lean it out. We'll see.

A cylinder loaded with fuel will burn white if you get it going. I pulled my hair out with an 1100 Shadow this past summer with F'd up symptoms. One it would run....upon restart crank, crank, crank and eventually start but with a cloud of white smoke/poor running. Long/short....the slide diaphragms were not sealing properly allowing the slides to smack into the carb tops with any type of vacuum. I replaced the slides (built in diaphragms) and it has been perfect. On the bench the slides appeared to be fine too. I have to say.....it was a very difficult diagnosis but I did nail it. Felt good as 2 dealerships could not find the problem.

[stereosilence]

Ok. I loosened up the cam chain and tried to see if I could get it "back on the shoes" or to play in any direction to make any difference. No luck.

So, a few things:

- the noise has nothing to do with the cam/sprocket. Clearance is good, everything in the head cover area is well oiled. The noise persists when the chain is off the cam sprocket.
- the noise does not go away when the plugs are taken out, but I think it gets worse when more torque is applied (i.e. when there is compression due to plugs).

I listened closely and it sounds more like dry rubber skidding on something rather than metal grinding on metal. Not sure what that would mean.

How do I check for bent pistons? Is there a step-by-step guide somewhere? I think that is my next option.

[dave500]

you wont have bent pistons,the pistons might have hit a valve and bent the valve?so the engine was running a ok before this cam swap?

jump on a plane with it and come over here,well have a few beers and sort it out.

[stereosilence]

That's what I meant. This is the first time I have ever opened up an engine before so bear with me. It was running well before the cam swap.

[dave500]

you didnt drop anything down that chain tunnel?or remove the front chain guide and reinstall it backwards?it goes inside the chain loop facing forward.

[stereosilence]

Well, obviously, I don't *think* I dropped anything down there. But anything is possible. I don't know what you mean about a chain guide. I have only touched the cam and the sprocket.

[dave500]

ok the front guide will be ok then,the chain cant really go of track,its too tight,youve checked the cam timing marks again of course,

[750resurrection]

you wont have bent pistons,the pistons might have hit a valve and bent the valve?so the engine was running a ok before this cam swap?

jump on a plane with it and come over here,well have a few beers and sort it out.

Since it still squeals with the cam chain loose and the valves not moving, how could it be a bent valve making the squeal? It couldn't.
 Further, valves are stationary when the lobes aren't moving them, so a decent portion of turning the crank won't yield a squeal with a bent valve.

 If piston 1 or 2 or both hit a valve(s) and a bit of each is laying inside cylinder 1 + or 2 scraping between the side of the piston and cyl wall.... maybe plug insertion would make that worse, and it wouldn't stop no matter the cam or cam chain.

 I don't think that's it though as the sound came from down there by the tensioner - a light and a long stem little round mirror sounds correct someone already said it.
 

[dave500]

i wasnt saying it HAS got bent valves i doubt it has,i was pointing out the bent piston question was askew!im still keen to have a beer with stereosilence(must have a broken hi fi aswell?)and fix his bike at my place though!

[750resurrection]

i wasnt saying it HAS got bent valves i doubt it has,i was pointing out the bent piston question was askew!im still keen to have a beer with stereosilence(must have a broken hi fi aswell?)and fix his bike at my place though!

 Oh hi dave. 

Right you are, I see that now, it's just none of you experts were saying stuff you already knew I guess, so I've been thinking and guessing along here and had to delete half my flubs already so as not to be spam.

 Ok so the sound is not a valve, but a valve still could be bent... lol

 Watch it ell be that stupid cam chain tensioner roller wheelies, the extra stress from the bigger cam n lobes...

 The only rubber squeal sound I could think of is a seal stuck to a end shaft bearing area or whatever and spinning with it...
 
So here's a stick of the front cam chain slidey spring tensioner.

[phil71]

This thread is frustrating . Has it been determined that the cam was, in fact , in wrong at first. If so, a bent valve becomes likely, and you will need to check compression and see if there Is a cylinder or more that have low compression , or don't hold pressure. A valve bent ever so slightly will create a very tiny opening that can squeal like letting the air out of a balloon while squeezing the opening .

[Don R]

Sorry if you tried this, did you try a little oil in the cylinders to see if the squeal changes or goes away. it seems to me it can either be a ring scraping the cylinder or (hope not) a siezed bearing squeal. I'm betting a gas washed cylinder and a scraping ring.
 Forgive me if this has already been gone over.

[750resurrection]

This is an exciting and interesting mystery thread. 

Don, no it hasn't been mentioned directly yet so way to add to the mystery. 

Phil, no, it has not been determined the cam was off, but 550 experts are saying a single tooth can be a disaster, so it is not entirely ruled out either.

stereosilence has said confidently he checked and checked and was very careful - going against that was "poor running" and the smoke... for 5 seconds
He also sort of alluded to some debris perhaps formerly outside of spark plug hole one and two.
 
I came across a site looking up the lower end and same type of squealing thing was described, even sound from the crankshaft area and it turned out it was the stator not being seated all the way.

stereosilence has been pretty fast really and has nice webcams with sound so we are pretty lucky here if you ask me.

Hang in there I'd bet we do find out what it really is in not very long.

[luap]

"best it will do is cough some and a bit of white smoke will come out"
Im going bent valve.
TT said it put the stock cam back in-
put rocker on lock it down do a leakdown test -test will tell you the problem instead of guessing

[oldfart]

I got the head cover back off. The previous poster was correct. Post cam swap, I only ran it maybe 5 seconds. Anyway, I tried to show in the video that the notch is lined up with TF1-4 and that the cam is oriented correctly.

The sound is coming from the middle of the engine down where the cam chain goes. Did I just turn a cam swap into an engine rebuild?

Engine noise sans head cover

Sounds like the classic camchain guide in backward to me.  Almost all first time rebuilders of this engine do this as the camchain guide is unique on this engine.

[Dimitri13]

I think he said that he didn't have the guide out in the first place, as it was just a cam swap.

[stereosilence]

Ok. A few more things.

- the cam guide was never out. So, it isn't that.
- the cam was in completely wrong at the beginning but I never tried to start it, I just hand turned it trying to do the valve clearance when I realized I had botched it.
- the plug recesses are nasty, so it wouldn't surprise me if something could have gotten down in there through the plug hole.

Things I would like to try but have no idea how to do:
1. Check for bent valves.
2. Compression test.
3. Put oil in the cylinder to check for dry cylinder.

Trav-i may come down this week and help me sort things out, so hopefully two heads will be better than one.

On a lighter note:
I would love to go to Australia and play motorbikes, Dave. I've always wanted to visit. However, I don't drink beer. In fact, this bike will be a completely beer-less build. I got through engineering school at Georgia Tech without an all-nighter so I figure I can get the bike how I want without beer. I'm a super-hero like that. 

Thanks for all the interest and help guys.

[MCRider]

Ooo, plug recesses. I don't really know the layout of the 500/550 plug recesses, butin general, if debris has been allowed to accumulate there, it is suggested that one loosen it with solvent or a stick or both, then vacuum as much as possible before removing the plugs.

If as you say, you could have dropped the tiniest of stones or other into a cylinder and your off to the races.

[MCRider]

Thanks again - oil is black, smoke is white, forgot the rule and the giant clouds seen and or ingested.
 
 Guess my cam is out 180. 

There have been at least 2 threads here where a bike had white smoke. A poster persisted in claiming this was a rich condition and convinced the OP to lean out the bottom end. The smoke went away. I knoooooooow. I'd never heard of this either. White/blueish white smoke = oil is how i was raised. Maybe should modify to: = oil or rich condition.

I know a rich condition should be dark smoke, but we'll see.

I have a new motor that smokes. I am getting ready to lean it out. We'll see.

A cylinder loaded with fuel will burn white if you get it going. I pulled my hair out with an 1100 Shadow this past summer with F'd up symptoms. One it would run....upon restart crank, crank, crank and eventually start but with a cloud of white smoke/poor running. Long/short....the slide diaphragms were not sealing properly allowing the slides to smack into the carb tops with any type of vacuum. I replaced the slides (built in diaphragms) and it has been perfect. On the bench the slides appeared to be fine too. I have to say.....it was a very difficult diagnosis but I did nail it. Felt good as 2 dealerships could not find the problem.

Good on you. Thanks for that tidbit.

[Dimitri13]

I still say pull the head.

Because if something DID get inside, you probably won't be able to get it out through the plug holes. All this wondering won't fix it either.

[stereosilence]

I think I agree. I have never done it though so it might take me a while to post the results as I usually like to make sure I have done my research before I start pulling things apart.

My engine experience previous to this fiasco was changing the oil and adjusting the valve clearance.

[dave500]

i use compressed air and blow around the plugs before i remove them,if you have compressed air and a long thin nozzle that you can insert through the plug hole and well into the cylinder you might blow what fell in out(you can get lucky) if in fact a small stone or debris has fallen in?

[TwoTired]

- the cam was in completely wrong at the beginning but I never tried to start it, I just hand turned it trying to do the valve clearance when I realized I had botched it.

The engine doesn't have to run to bend the valves.  Rotating through with a valve held open and the piston reaching TDC will do it.

I hope that's not the case, though.

[luap]

I got it started yesterday for just a bit"- "the cam was in completely wrong at the beginning but I never tried to start it, I just hand turned it trying to do the valve clearance when I realized I had botched it.
Did you remove the spark plugs? there really wouldnt be any reason to- for something to drop in the jug
if the cam was in wrong Nothing else was touched an you tried to start it an it worked fine before only  moving parts on the top end valves an cam  chain an sprcket-  sprocket fine check chain fine check cam fit fine check valves
get a good head gasket vesrah makes a good one also dynoman sells the headgasket sepertly i think 60 bucks or so. Your half way there already 12 more 14mm bolts  1 10mm bolt hold tensioner an 1 10mm bolts intake side an 1 10mm exhaust side  an head is off

[stereosilence]

If I take the head off, what all should I do while I'm in there and what parts will I need?

Should I plan on lapping the valves? Do I need more than just the head gasket?

I'm planning to get the carbs and exhaust off tomorrow and see if I can get the head up, then I suppose I can see what is going on and figure out what I have to do.

What can I use to clean out the head? Brake parts cleaner? Carb cleaner?

I want to, someday, use the aircraft stripper and repaint the engine silver. Do you think now is the time while I'm taking everything apart?