Topic: Toustic's CB550F - A Swiss' first build

[Bankerdanny]

You can sandblast without a cabinet. I did it with 2 frames this summer. However, it is VERY messy. Make sure you have a proper hood that covers your whole head down to your shoulders and I highly recommend a set of disposable painter's coveralls.

[Toustic]

So, here is how thing evolved.

I will be sandblasting myself the frame, stand, swingarm, bottom and top triple trees, and give the more fragile parts to someone I know who can bead/soda/sand blast anything, and powdercoat as well. I should be able to be there and watch him work, which to me is the most important aspect... no point in doing all this if I don't learn more about the fun stuff.

@RB, @CALJ - Thanks for warning me about mishandling my crankcase, I didn't take into consideration the heating factor of the sandblast, and how it would mostly mess it all up. I was too focused on the abrasive factor, thinking a wire brush wheel didn't sound much smoother than sand. My bad, that's how you learn (at least before messing s*** up).

So I pulled that sucker of a flywheel/magneto, and opened the case, thanks to RB's walkthrough. Not gonna lie I had butterflies in my stomach seeing that sucker through. The primary chain had major slack as anticipated. I will soon be placing an order for all the oil seal, primary and cam chain. Do you guys suggest replacing all ball bearings? What about the crank bearings?
The idea is that now that the engine is open, I might as well replace parts that need be. THanks in advance for feedback.








Is that the time I'm supposed to start getting doubtful, and realize I might not be able to put it back together?

[rb550four]

Yeah , that's about the time alright.
  I doubt that you will have any problems putting it back together,you have a nice shop to work in and,people here to give support if you get in a jam.

How do those crank bearings look up close , how much side to side play do you have at the crank /piston rod? if those are not sloppy don't take them apart , no real benefit, unless you must.
  A taste of crankbearing talk.....
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=126080.0

Hit search with your question  about it  if you need a better idea or understanding of how to deal with things like no longer available parts and where one might get aftermarket parts, there is lots of info in past threads.
There are answers there and you don't have to go in blind . No worries , You'll be fine.

[rb550four]

other recent talk
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=133078.0

That's what I mean about feeling slack on chains and things that ware, usually if it feels good ,it is  and some things are not available.

[rb550four]

  Still there? 

[Stev-o]

Hello...anybody home?

[rb550four]

Over a month and not a word.
  My guess is that he is skiing for the Swiss in the Olympics.

[Stev-o]

Over a month and not a word.
  My guess is that he is skiing for the Swiss in the Olympics.

Yeah, I think hes doing the Downhill!

[Toustic]

Hi All,

I'm back from the dark side of the moon. My apologies for the disappearance, but sometimes, life gets in the way of fun, and it's only wise to let it smack you in the face as it happens 

Despite the work I had ahead of me on the CB, the one that puts the roof over my head took priority, and if you know what yearly income taxes and state taxes do to your paycheck, join me in a place where a big mac combo small size costs the equivalent of 14.80$.

In other words... Wallet was bone dry and couldn't afford any work on my poor baby.
But It's better now, the fun can begin again.

I recently get some much needed free weekend, and got to do a bunch of Dyi stuff, and timing wants it that I just received some parts from some helpers.
Visuals are more fun than words, so please feel free to take a peak at my short time with the bike.
So here it is....




Felt like blasting the frame 


DYI protection - Gamers may know the reference(goggles not on yet)




That's me learning the pattern of wheels before unlacing them... Pretty rough shape now that I see them standing alone...




Check out this modern duct tape


Yeah those spokes are gone... Going to polish the hell out of that hub


First step of polishing


Last time I see them chromed before they get powdercoated in black..


Going for cheap...










Took this to my friend a while back so that he could sodablast it..


There was a coat of red, blue, and black


satisfied, for now 


Cheapest powder coating in town, but happy with the result.


I can see it... can you?


Found some spokes from a private sale from a guy who had no use for them.
that's me learning how to re-spoke a wheel..


Think I got it.. Tho I am still doubtful at this moment haha


I can say I have done it once at least 


Got them trued by a local shop, because truthfully, I'd rather know they are perfect then take a whack at it and always be doubtful.


DYi Painting time


Yeah, got a thing for the color black, can't help it.

Actually... It's not a joke, I really can't help it - Here are all the rides I've had in the last 8 years... sold and trade and sold, etc..




I really do think it makes anything look badass, event if it's not really all that much initially.


Back to business...


Got her heart back




THAT's done


Muscle up for some bushings


Gotta love ebay


So here I am, minding my own business, trying to compress them springs to relap the valves and make sure it's clear from all crap


And as I pull them, I realize that at least 4 of them are bent like this one


And that's me pulling out the valve stem seals... Thought I didn't expect any of the valve guide to come with...



Turns out 4 out of 8 were broken to pieces, and 2 were cracked. One healthy valve guide.

I had only two valve stems that weren't bent...

You know when I thought the engine was running poorly, that it couldn't hold an idle to save its life, and that compression was off... I guess some of it wasn't too crazy.

Anywho... That's where I stand.. In the dark again. Don't know what I shoud do.
All I know is that for now I can rebuild the bottom end, pistons and cylinders, and hope I can fix this on the cheap 


Just would like to say. Didn't mean to disappear. I just couldn't find the way to juggle between the very little bit of time I got to do this and work, to find the time to upload all this, and take the time to reconnect with the forum accordingly.

Your humble servant,
Sebastien

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Nice polishing work.  I guess a new valvetrain is in your future.

[calj737]

+2 on the valve train. Unfortunate, but now your bike will run as beautifully as it looks!

[rb550four]

Toustic,
 Nice work. You're doing a great job . And tracking down the hidden problems with that engine, bummer to find stuff in the condition of those valves and guides were in . But GOOD to find, especially while it's apart on the table and not at 7 grand out on the road. It couldn't have been long before it would grenade.
 Lucky man, it's hard to figure the cost of a rebuild when it  just may have saved your life.  I was hoping that during your disappearance you would metal, looks like someone took the gold. Nice work.
   

[Stev-o]

Great update...

[Toustic]

You guys are grand... Thank you for the constant support

I'm glad I found out as well. Can't believe the guy who sold it to me said it "JUST HAD" a top end rebuild...
I'm actually surprised I got to start the engine and ride the bike across Southern California without having a major mechanical failure. Knocking on wood it is.

My local acquaintance (he races vintage bikes professionally) told me that valve guides are way hard to replace, and was suggesting a replacement of the cylinder head 
I don't see how this would help since I basically trust no one to sell me reliable used stuff now

However, found some valve guides and valves on CMSNL, as well as Dynoman, but I have absolutely no clue who to talk to, to get it done.

@rb550four - That I would metal? I'm not familiar with that expression hehe, But I thank you for the the good words my friend

[Maurice]

Bummer about the valves / guides. It had the head rebuilt all right, this shouldn't happen by itself and someone must have just cranked away on the cover bolts and caught the valves on the side of the tappet screws...

I would keep the head and just replace the guides, they're press-fit. Maybe pop it in the oven to remove old ones and install the new ones, steel and aluminum alloy have different expansion rates. Reason is, another head will come with used guides, and if this one has good compression at least there's that.

Rest of the bike looks great, I'm looking to get my wheels painted the same, except with hubs powder coated black. Wish it were easy to powder coat the spokes as well but apparently that's a major pain in the butt.

Sweet.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Toustic,

Unfortunately, I have been in your shoes on my 750 build.  It totally sucks. 

I would have your existing head rebuilt, so you know that what you have is reliable.  The problem for you is geography.  I would call CMSNL or Rob Bosschieter aka Voxonda.  Hopefully, he can refer you to someone who can rebuild your head, if you are not comfortable rebuilding it yourself.

[Toustic]

@CB750 Cafe Racer Fan - Thank you for the tip, much appreciated.

I'm quite honestly comfortable with anything, it's part of the challenge. The only problem is that I don't have many specialized tools at my disposal.

Also, it appears that the valve guides I've seen so far require honing (not sure what that entails when it's not about pistons). Is that something I can do myself?


@Maurice - If I'm getting this right..

Basically I have to heat the valve guides to a certain temperature (are those cast iron, bronze, steel?) to yank em out.
Million dollar questions being, how and to what temperature? 
To install the new one, could I use a lubricant freeze spray such as http://www.ttproducts.com/freeze-off.html and an impact driver to push it down the hole?

As you all seem to suggest (and my initial feeling when he said that), I'm better off working with the head I have and trust that it's fixed right, rather than gamble on another shady sale.

I'm sure I'll be happy about having gone through the engine once it's set with new chains, seals, bearings, gaskets and quite obviously, a top end rebuilt.
Just didn't think my first try would be such as challenge (....well I guess I knew but I didn't want to admit it  )

Thanks in advance guys

[calj737]

Toustic - it's possible the PO had done some head work prior to your purchase but upon re-assembly, improperly adjusted and over-tightened the valve train. I'm not saying this is the case as a proper inspection of the condition of the age of the parts may disprove that.

You could try a PM to MRieck for his advice on removal and DIY on your valves/guides. He is constantly praised on this Forum for his excellent workmanship with these heads. He may even be able to point you to some threads or articles for assistance.

[iron_worker]

I would say the damage is related to the knicks and dents in your valves and combustion chamber. Something Went through that engine...

IW

[Maurice]

Toustic, I'm no pro, take what I say with a grain of salt. I have experience in press-fit applications and never f'ed up anything yet so I have that going for me.

That being said, this is what I would do: aluminum expands more than steel (I think guides are hardened steel), so to remove the guides pop the whole thing in the freezer overnight and then pound out (CAREFULLY) the guides. From the inside out (with respect to the cylinders) if I understand correctly. This step is relatively safe and will give you a feel for the fit when you do the reverse.

To install, put the guides in the freezer overnight, and the head in the oven. Say 180*C (since you're in Europe) for a couple hours. Then take your time never force anything. I would use an old valve as a guide with something to protect the guide part like a plastic ring fitting tightly. Pound them back in reverse of removal. Lube if you want it doesn't matter much, IMO it makes things a bit harder.

Never let anything go crooked, pound/check repeat. I actually prefer the pounding method because a press or clamp can put a hug amount of force without you realizing. But it's up to you if you're uncomfortable keep  an eye out for a new head. I don't even think it's critical to seat the guide all the way in since the valve spring will take care of it eventually. But don't quote me on this.

I think it's a good learning experience, heads are cheap enough (at least in these parts) that f'ing up, although hard IMO, should not be the end of the world... Maybe keep an extra guide on hand in case?

Good luck!

[Maurice]

BTW what do you mean impact driver to push it back? I would just use an old valve upside down with something softer resting against between valve and guide (PVC? Piece of cutting board?) and pound on it with a mallet. Carefully. Maybe do some yoga first

[MoMo]

Toustic,  after new guides are installed  you will also need cutters to recut the seats and a reamer for the guides....Larry

[Toustic]

BTW what do you mean impact driver to push it back? I would just use an old valve upside down with something softer resting against between valve and guide (PVC? Piece of cutting board?) and pound on it with a mallet. Carefully. Maybe do some yoga first

That whole freezer & oven ordeal got me inspired to give it a shot myself. Worse comes to worse, I can't get them in and ask for local help.

To answer your question...
I saw a video of a British dude using the force of an impact driver to push the guides down the holes after he sprayed them with freezing lubricant
fitting new valve guids ----> @ 2:25

That being said, I'd be more comfortable using a rubber hammer and a PVC pipe (with some duct tape at the tip) to pound the guides down the holes after popping them out of the freezer. Like you said, it will take a little patience but nothing new with this project haha.

Lastly:

Should I go for the genuine or pattern guide? And should I avoid mixing pattern valves with genuine guides and vice versa?

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb550f2-super-sport-550-four-1977-general-export-mph_model17120/guide-valve_12023324405/#.UxuTDOddWcM
http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb550f2-super-sport-550-four-1977-general-export-mph_model17120/guide-valve_12023465405/#.UxuTe-ddWcM

117$ vs. 211$ for the valves guides
plus 260$ in valves...

Dang... this is gonna cost me

Anyhow
Been working hard on the crankcase re-assembly today.. Will have nice pictures to post tomorrow evening.

Cheers,
Sebastien

[Toustic]

Hi,

So... got to re-assemble the crankcase, pistons and cylinders today. Here is a bit of an overview.


Feeling proud...
New bearing, new oil seals, new primary and cam chains..
Less slack, and ready for the years to come.


Gotta start somewhere


2 in, 2 to go


Flush

One last thing


Got some ALL BALLS taper bearings, but I don't know how to take the old bearing base off the stem ---- Freezer, Heat, Hammer?

Ordering all KPMI valves guides, valves, spring (stock retainers) and valve seals - It's gonna cost me an arm but I will be set with a strong working engine and won't be looking back. Going for all genuine parts through cmsnl would cost me more actually.. So why not...

Anywho, that's it for the weekend.

Have yourselves a fin week gentlemen

[Stev-o]

Great progress.  A hammer and chisel will make easy work of that old race n the triple.