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Offline Maurice

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Advancing too far
« on: January 03, 2014, 07:04:12 AM »
Hello all,

this is a question about a CB550k and its ignition/advance. I set the gap, static timed and fires right up. However it's a bit of a bear to get it to run right before it's fully warmed up. Carbs have been cleaned twice, pulled the pilot jets (PD carbs) and cleaned them + emulsion holes, mains, new o-rings and bench sync'ed. Works fairly well once warmed up, before that it needs quite a bit of choke, tends to pop out of the carbs and idle will hang.

When I go to time with a light the fire mark is spot on for both sets of cylinders, but the full advance mark goes past, literally out of sight when revving. I have 2 advancers (original and spare) and it does the same with both, both are clean and lubed.

Should I be concerned? What do you guys think?

Thanks

Offline Davidov

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Re: Advancing too far
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2014, 07:10:25 AM »
After reading around a few posts on this forum, and some tinkering...I found this. (for my 78 CB750F)

I found the engine runs better with both sets of points/cylinders set to the advance marks. I set static timing, and then really only focused on the advance marks when timing dynamically with the light.
-David

Offline Maurice

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Re: Advancing too far
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2014, 07:13:25 AM »
Mmmh... Not sure I'm following... Do you mean to say that you focus on the full advance marks? Get them aligned above 2k rpm and that's it? Doesn't it advance the fire mark a bit too much?

Thanks!

Offline lucky

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Re: Advancing too far
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2014, 03:19:06 PM »
Just set the timing statically with the ohm meter set on the ohms x 1000 scale. Key off.

Thats it you are done.

 No need to use the timing light unless you just want to see of the advance unit is functioning. As long as the advance unit is not rusted solid don't worry.

This is a 40 year old bike, not a modern double overhead cam electronic nightmare.

You will always have to wait for the bike to warm up. Gradually cut back on the choke. About 5 minutes or so.
That is just how it was 40 years ago. Not like today when we have automatic chokes and fuel injection making decisions about 14 parameters 130 times per second.


Offline HondaMan

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Re: Advancing too far
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2014, 07:23:05 PM »
There's some thing that can cause this issue:
1. The points cam may be worn on its inner pivot. This lets it swing (or wiggle) "sideways", so to speak, when the weights reach full advance, which ends up adding extra advance.
2. You might be using Daiichi brand points. These monsters cause all sorts of these timing problems because their geometry is wrong between the rubbing foot and the pivot. This forces you to have gaps outside of the range of .012" to .016" to make them reach the static (idle) timing marks, and when the advancer swings to full angle, the points then double-bounce on closing (especially if the gaps are at .016" or more): this makes it look (to a timing light) like it is advanced way past the advance marks (I know it sounds confusing, but that's what it is doing...). If you happen to also have one of my Transistor Ignition boxes, the spark comes on again, full-force here, and makes the engine backfire with a 'sputta-sputta' sort of sound out the pipes. It's because the points are giving a false trigger signal at the wrong time.
3. The springs on your spark advancer are likely annealed and have become too soft now. This is a common malady, probably because Honda never intended these bikes to be around 40 years later(!). On many of them, like the 750 and 450 twins, cutting off 1/2 turn from one or both springs is a good way to let them settle back to idle - especially when hot - and gives them a much smoother, more controllable, launch. This 'fix' stops their sudden urge to jump high in RPM when the throttle is first cracked open, and only delays the full advance by about 200 RPM, so you'll never notice.
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline trueblue

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Re: Advancing too far
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2014, 03:29:56 AM »
As said earlier set your timing to the full advance marks.  Only use the static timing for initial setup, unless you spend all day at idle.  All I know is I spend most of my time on the bike at full advance on the timing and very little at idle.  Lucky on the other hand must start his bikes up and look at them idling in the garage for 10 minutes then shut them off.  If he actually rode them he would understand that they spend such a small percentage of their time at idle that the idle setting isn't that important.   ;)
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Offline Bru-tom

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Re: Advancing too far
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2014, 03:49:20 AM »
what do you mean set the timing on the full advance marks? As in, not the "f" mark, but the double lines (full advance marks) instead?

Offline dave500

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Re: Advancing too far
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2014, 04:19:50 AM »
forget the #$%*ing "F" mark man!to set timing,forget it,with a warm engine and a timing/strobe light flash it on the marks,then increase rpm untill it stops advancing,if it aint at the furthest end of those two marks set/adjust the plate untill it does,now just out of interest wheres the "F" mark now?who cares!you should be riding the bike so full advance is always happening!that crap about 2000/2500/3000 rpm transitions is for commuters!forget static timing settings,they are for the 70s man,you dig?you aint hip if you dont rev your engine man!im serious,these engines are always working with the advance on full advance,try and consider the advance as a retard mechanism,it lets you start and idle the engine,then once your under way how often do you lug the engine under 4000?never!its a retard mechanism full stop!all and any automatic variable timing systems are in fact a retard system,only a retard would disagree?a stuck mechanism will give trouble same as one with too soft springs,dont frigg around trying to curve these engines,they dont need it.

Offline Maurice

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Re: Advancing too far
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2014, 06:58:06 AM »
I agree about full advance being what matters. The issue I have is that setting static timing sends it too far after, meaning I can make it work with it retarded by the same amount. Which is a lot it seems. Plus I imagine it would be better for things to work as intended: idle at "F" and full advance within the range.

HondaMan's post makes sense, my advancers seemed tight on the pivot when I lubed them and also move the correct amount by hand (easy to measure with the little dot). Points and springs might be screwing things. I have no idea of the brand, came with the bike. I cleaned them with an ignition file, set the gap and timed to "F" 1-4 and 2-3, it's spot on but still advances too far, to the point where I run out of plate adjustment to limit at full advance...

Thanks guys for all the suggestions, sorry Lucky your take on it seems a bit counter-intuitive though...

Hopefully the weather gets less cold and I can sort this out, I'll post my findings.

Offline Bru-tom

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Re: Advancing too far
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2014, 07:25:28 AM »
im still a little lost. Maybe its because i dont have a timing light? I have only been able to set static due to me not having any testing equipment.

So i should keep it there, then once its running (and with a timing light) turn the points plate until the firing mark is on the full advance marks immediately at idle? What happens with the advancing mech when it spins past the normal range where it would normally kick in?

Offline Maurice

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Re: Advancing too far
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2014, 08:37:18 AM »
Bru-tom, the way I understand it is that the engine requires timing at a certain point to operate optimally in its useful RPM range. That would be the full advance mark. Keep in mind that theoretically moves with RPMs but since these bikes don't have "smart" electronic ignition that's good enough.

In order to start easier, the timing retards, otherwise it's likely to pre-detonate and send the piston(s) down before it reaches TDC.

Now the more you advance, the earlier it fires and the hotter it runs. As you can see too much advance may run too hot and poke a hole in the piston... That is the issue I want to avoid.

That's why everyone says to time to full advance. Issue is you can't do that accurately without a timing light, that I know of. You shouldn't have to, actually, setting gap + static timing should only advance to full mark when all is well.

I'm not getting that hence this thread, and hopefully I can figure out what is going on. I might have to break down and get a dwell meter...

Offline andrewk

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Re: Advancing too far
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2014, 09:13:41 AM »
What happens with the advancing mech when it spins past the normal range where it would normally kick in?

This usually occurs when you time it with a timing light at idle, rather than static.  Worn advance springs will mean that the advance is kicking in at idle, so setting it to the F mark results in over-advance at higher rpm when the rest of the advance kicks in.  You have the right solution, set the points plate with the engine at 2k-2500k and set it on the marks, and let the f mark fall where it may.

The cause is usually worn advance springs.  Could also be cheap points, though.  Shortening the springs seems to work pretty well, I would do one side at a time though.  Test and modify other side if necessary.  I mostly agree with Dave, in that you don't really need to worry about curving these engines.  However, if the springs are real sloppy you can still be left with throttle response issues.  I find the spring modification to help in that regard.

I find the dwell meter indispensable.  Paired with a timing light, it's easy to get perfectly balanced ignition, every time.  The dwell meter also makes it easy to find junk points-  If I can't get the dwell balanced with the timing marks still in check with the light, I know I'm fighting a points problem.  (Or a points plate problem)

Offline Bru-tom

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Re: Advancing too far
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2014, 09:31:41 AM »
thanks a ton fellas! makes sense to me now.

so set the bike up at the advanced marks at the RPM it kicks in at and like you said, dont worry about where it goes pre advance.

i really need a dwell and timing light...so i can see whether my points are poked or not.

Do you think that $28 is fair for original honda points and $35 for condensers each? its the pricing i got from my local honda dealer...

DO you guys reckon the electronic timing light with built in dwell could work?

Offline PeWe

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Re: Advancing too far
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2014, 10:42:10 AM »
I had problem with too early full advance on my CB750. I think it was related to electronic ignition without points that have a contra force against the advance arms. The engine got full advance @1500 rpm, carbs squirted gasoline in wrong direction.

I did the modification as Hondaman describes. I cut both springs and rearranged them keeping the arm back all the way.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=131339.msg1464986#msg1464986

Tightened the springs solved THAT problem. F spot @ idle and full advance " " reached around 2600-2800 rpm.
If this is the same problem here, fix one of the springs can be a good beginning.

There is a thread about this and CB500/550. I think full advance should be reached @ 3000rpm if I remember correctly.
Easy to check if springs are OK. 'F' @ 1000-1500rpm, full advance "  " @3000rpm.
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Re: Advancing too far
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2014, 11:49:14 AM »
I agree about full advance being what matters. The issue I have is that setting static timing sends it too far after, meaning I can make it work with it retarded by the same amount. Which is a lot it seems. Plus I imagine it would be better for things to work as intended: idle at "F" and full advance within the range.

HondaMan's post makes sense, my advancers seemed tight on the pivot when I lubed them and also move the correct amount by hand (easy to measure with the little dot). Points and springs might be screwing things. I have no idea of the brand, came with the bike. I cleaned them with an ignition file, set the gap and timed to "F" 1-4 and 2-3, it's spot on but still advances too far, to the point where I run out of plate adjustment to limit at full advance...

Thanks guys for all the suggestions, sorry Lucky your take on it seems a bit counter-intuitive though...

Hopefully the weather gets less cold and I can sort this out, I'll post my findings.

If I were you I would look and see what brand name points you have. I know the TEC are good and all I use. This will more than likely solve your issues if your back plate is seated well and not moving and check your springs . Yes they cost but well worth it. With TEC points and a good backing plate I have no problem setting both the idle and full advance like the book says. I also have the HondaMan Transistor Ignition box. I have been running this setup for just over 5000 miles now and have not needed to make any adjustment yet. Just a little dab of high temp grease with a Q-tip on the points cam. Read HondaMans post above until you understand it completely. Just my 2 cents.

Offline Maurice

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Re: Advancing too far
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2014, 11:59:58 AM »
How do you determine the brand of points? I'll see what's on my 750, maybe swap them see what I get. Thanks

Offline dave500

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Re: Advancing too far
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2014, 01:18:37 PM »
im running a boyer ignition,it has an electronic advance no weights and springs,i set it at max advance the same way,with a timing light youll see how the advance mark moves as rpm is increased,keep slowly increasing rpm untill it stops advancing,hold those rpms and adjust the plate untill the marks line up at full advance,now release the throttle and let it idle,itll be either dead on the f mark(i doubt it)or slightly advanced or retarded,if its retarded your advance mechanism is worn giving it too much range,you can tinker with it and make it better if you want.

Offline Maurice

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Re: Advancing too far
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2014, 04:13:14 PM »
Wait, Boyer makes ignitions for SOHC 4s? I have one on my xs650. Kind of a nice surprise I had when I went to give the points some R&R. PO had it advanced too much though and the son of a b*tch kicked back and made me limp for a week. Then I got scalded-cat-scared-of-cold-water effect every time I went to start it up. Otherwise I like it, but it does require a timing light to get right...

With the 550 I really want to dial the points/mechanical advancer system, it's fun in a way.

Cheers

Offline dave500

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Re: Advancing too far
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2014, 06:01:19 PM »

Offline Bru-tom

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Re: Advancing too far
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2014, 08:20:57 PM »
thanks guys for the superb info! the boyer is nice Dave, but as Maurice states, the old points and condensers is a nice treat to work on, being my first time with the system...

I mentioned above that i can get each side for $28, is that reasonable for OE points?

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Re: Advancing too far
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2014, 09:11:48 PM »
How do you determine the brand of points? I'll see what's on my 750, maybe swap them see what I get. Thanks

I will take a pic and post it There is a stamp on them.

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Re: Advancing too far
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2014, 10:10:58 PM »
Look between the two contacts and you will see the letters stamped on the stationary point NOT the one that moves. I could not find a print  ???
                                                     

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Advancing too far
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2014, 10:15:38 PM »
The Daiichi symbol looks like a pointed 3-leaf clover.
The Hitachi has a small circle with a tiny square in the center of it, and something that looks a lot like crosshairs from a bombsight in the square.
The TEC may or may not have its initials on the points. Honda sells their whole plate, and it is definitely stamped on the plate above the L points. These are by far the best ones.
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline andrewk

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Re: Advancing too far
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2014, 08:36:47 AM »


Do you think that $28 is fair for original honda points and $35 for condensers each? its the pricing i got from my local honda dealer...

www.hondabike.com you can get the whole plate for less than component cost.  Worth it-  new TEC plate, bolt it on, check the timing and ride ride ride.

Offline Maurice

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Re: Advancing too far
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2014, 10:19:43 AM »
I see, I'll take a look tonight.

I did come across a gem from HondaMan which seems to describe my symptoms: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=59886.0

Result 1 or 2 in google when you search for "daiichi points".

This place looks decent for OEM stuff: http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/Motorcycle/1977/CB550K+A/POINTS+%2B+ADVANCER/parts.html

If I understand correctly TOYO == TEC.

I still think my springs may be acting up also. I'm assuming there is no easy source for just those? Are these special springs that you can't find at, say, McMaster Carr?