Author Topic: Quick and dirty advancing F cam  (Read 2959 times)

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Offline 70CB750

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Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« on: February 18, 2014, 12:00:13 PM »
As I am moving slowly forward in uncharted territory, the time has come to set the camshaft on the F2 engine.

I can set it exactly as it was based on the witness marks, it would seem to be easy just to move it 5 degrees advance relatively to the original settings.

Comments?
Prokop
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2014, 04:52:49 PM »
So I found TDC tonight and mocked it up just to see. I "scientifically" advanced the cam to the maximum the sprocket would let me file longer hole, set valve lash to 0.004" and turned it slowly around listening.

The missing cam chain tensioner scared the crap out of me, it was making very suspicious clicking noise. 

Question:  if you move a cam from stock position - advance or retard - where do you set valve lash?  See advanced camshaft will have already tension on #1 spring in TDC.

Or am I wrong? Please bear with me, I am trying to wrap my head around this.
Prokop
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Offline thirsty 1

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2014, 05:02:35 PM »
Your valve lash should still be set on the base circle of the cam. Set in the normal sequence.  The valve lash is for thermal growth of the valve stem after it gets to operating temp. In a perfect world, I'd say a half thousands oil film would be plenty for lube oil between the stem and rocker after the engine is at temp. This is the reason for a cold valve adjustment. 

I haven't degreed a cam so I'll be learning too.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 05:20:35 PM by thirsty 1 »
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2014, 05:56:48 PM »
My bad, I meant where as a degree.  Seems to me, that advanced cam cannot have the lash set in TDC.
Prokop
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Offline thirsty 1

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2014, 09:05:05 PM »
TDC Comp. is where to set the valves. Both rockers will be loose (valve closed on the base circle) and the plug will have lit making power. +-10 dgs on the cam shouldn't matter for setting valves. How do you know how far you advanced (deg's.)the cam gear?
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75' CB400F  -  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=127295.0

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Offline thirsty 1

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2014, 09:08:24 PM »
OH you've met my wife, Quick and dirty advancing F cam. ;D
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75' CB400F  -  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=127295.0

My 79 CB750F for fun   ----   http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=19923.0

Offline Don R

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2014, 09:38:33 PM »
 TDC is still safe, the lobe only goes part way around the circle. There are other ways to determine the base circle, research the IOEC method.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2014, 01:18:20 AM »
It is work in progress, my understanding that is.

I dont know how far is set now, I will check it tonight if I have time.   Will not be far from 5 deg, the sprocket is the F with holes and it will not let you file too far.

And thanks for your input, gents  ;D
Prokop
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Offline TurboD

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2014, 01:07:39 PM »
I'm not sure what you end goal is? I would first degree it in to see what the start settings are. 

Offline 74750k4

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2014, 07:26:47 AM »
Does "scientifically" moved,  include the use of a degree wheel, and a positive TDC position?

Offline 70CB750

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2014, 07:43:16 AM »
It does now, I am just playing with it, trying to get a hands on experience and understanding.

Speaking of which, is there any advantage in camshaft mounted wheel?
Prokop
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Offline TurboD

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2014, 07:47:47 AM »
I'm confused. Normally when you degree a cam in, you are checking the relationship of the cam to the crankshaft on a completed engine.

Offline 74750k4

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2014, 09:01:17 AM »
Yes. Looks like a waste of time until it's assembled. Openings/closings/overlap center etc., are all based on degrees of crankshaft rotation, without that reference point, of true TDC, what can you really do?

Offline MRieck

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2014, 09:38:22 AM »
I'm confused. Normally when you degree a cam in, you are checking the relationship of the cam to the crankshaft on a completed engine.
That's my limited understanding as well. ;)
   I have bench shimmed heads but that is about it. I'd highly recommend setting cam timing with the actual lash you will be running.....none of this 0 lash....you want to see what you are getting as close to running conditions as possible (even though things are moving all over the place when running).
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2014, 09:51:53 AM »
Ok, I am confused, got it now.  ;D

Crappy picture of my setup:

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/20/4egy5a7y.jpg

« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 09:59:18 AM by 70CB750 »
Prokop
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Offline dave500

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2014, 11:45:24 AM »
the degrees quoted in cam timing are crankshaft degrees,install the cam as per the stock marks and zero your wheel,now loosen your cam bolts and rotate the crank counterclockwise from the points side how ever many degrees you want the cam advanced,the cam sprocket will turn half as many degrees while you hold the cam still,lock your cam bolts,check for valve to piston clearance,its best done with some lift happening so you can see if the cam has moved any as youve adjusted it on your dial indicator.

you can assemble it as per marks then turn the crank clockwise with the indicator on any lobe,bring it up to say 50 thou,then do the counter clockwise reset and be sure the dial stays at 50 thou the whole time,now when you set your tappets do it with the crank timing retarded from TDC the amount of degrees you set it to,this will bring the base circles back.

adjusting the crank counter clockwise(from the points side) will advance the cam,the lobes will start work sooner and visa versa.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 12:14:40 PM by dave500 »

Offline Trad

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2014, 03:53:16 PM »
I am now really looking forward to degreeing the webcam for my 550. NOT!
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http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,130575.0.html

Offline 74750k4

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2014, 03:57:17 PM »
Sure you want a Webcam? There's another live thread going that says stock, unless you're making a drag bike motor.

Offline dave500

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2014, 10:40:24 PM »
if your happy with it set to what ever it is,index the cam and sprocket together with neat sharp prick punch marks so you can reinstall it the same if you ever take it apart,or go the extra mile and have an engineering shop drill another pair of holes about 180 degrees away from the factory ones but say 5 or whatever crank degrees you want different from the tooth(i dont like slotted cam sprocket holes),have it stamped say +5 or what ever it is on the side that faces the points and factory cam marks,if you reverse the sprocket the cam will be retarded that amount!five crank degrees is only two point five camshaft degrees,takes some good accuracy to square it away,a lot of vehicle engines through the smog years had the same cam but the key way or timing marks were moved to retard or advance the cam,this is how myths started about early and late cams etc being better,it was only the timing,some makes even did alter the lobes,mix that with the wrong sprockets marked differently and you can see how guys have bad results with cam swaps?if you expect proper performance this is why you must degree your cam in automobile engines.

be sure to check your piston to valve clearance if you alter the cam timing,the valves come closest to the piston during overlap,you can crush plasticene in the engine and have a look,or using soft springs on the valves(you only have to set up one cylinder with valves and light springs,leave all the other valves out) rotate the engine to overlap,then measure how much further you can push the valves down by hand untill they foul the piston,both valves are open a little here,this is done so at a certain rpm some new fuel flushes the old burnt out,its called scavenging(degrees of overlap),mild cams have less,wild cams have more,wild cams dont idle well because of it.

thats trying to keep it quick and dirty 70CB750,dont you ever change your avatar,i dig it!
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 11:53:06 PM by dave500 »

Offline 70CB750

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2014, 03:54:34 AM »
Thank you, Dave, I have it now together just lightly oiled and without pucks for educational purposes.

I like the idea of marking it together, will probably do that once I establish where I am at.

To check for clearances - well I was not going to take the head off again, but I guess it is better to do it now, than get frustrated later.

I will back off all valves except the #1, reset lash for #1  at TDC and have a go at it again. 

Thanks!
Prokop
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Offline dave500

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2014, 01:29:27 PM »
no worries,it pays to mock up engines if your changing pistons for domed or swapping cams etc,does the 750 cam sprocket have 34 teeth like the 500/550s?if so one tooth = 21.18 crank shaft degrees,360 divided by 34 = 10.59 cam degrees,it turns half as fast as the crank so x 2 = 21.18 crank degrees,dont even think in cam degrees.

Offline 70CB750

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2014, 04:58:14 AM »
Yes, 34 teeth on the sprockets.  Made the holes longer to time it 5 degrees in advance per Hondaman book to move the powerband to lower rpms.

It finally makes sense and works now, after I realized the opening movement is 0.04" and not 0.004" :)  - wish my tools were metric  ;D
Prokop
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2014, 03:19:12 PM »
Something is fishy, valves too long  maybe?  Anyway, with the head, cam and rockers in place, there is no clearance between the rocker arm and top of the valve even without the lash adjustment screw.

The valve is pushed in by the rocker arm, when there is no adjustment screw, is it normal?
Prokop
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Offline dave500

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2014, 05:28:33 PM »
yes its ok,the valve wont be opened as much though,so long as its not happening with the rocker on the cams base circle its ok,rotate that cylinder to TDC  compression,both rockers should be on the base circle and you should have miles of clearance at both valve tips now.

Offline 70CB750

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2014, 04:41:37 AM »
Thanks Dave, I took valve out and it measures the same as the old one.

Will do the trick with no springs and feel the valve reach, there are just too may questions I need to figure out - but I got time to do that.

Thanks again.
Prokop
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