Author Topic: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build  (Read 40743 times)

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Offline GV1390

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2015, 05:53:40 AM »
This isn't mine, lol. This is going to a local guy who is having a cafe themed motorcycle completed.
93' GSX-R1100, 78' CB550, 71' CL350, 71’ CB500 & 02' ZRX1200R.

Offline strynboen

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2015, 07:44:15 AM »
can you let go that push rod chlutch..and modd it to a 550 by use a clutch cover from 550?..as i renember there is a minor thange in the castings..a blub vith a velder can make it fit.. you can easy opgrate to a ekstra set of plates..bu use thinner steel plates and make  a bit more room in the clutch housing..and not use the dubbel damper plate...as some 500/550 have used..500 and 550 dont rattel in chlutch ,like 750..so its a Waste to have it mounted..
i kan not speak english/but trying!!
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2015, 02:42:21 PM »
I haven't yet reached the clutch part of this, but I will likely install a 750's clutch as the 500 was known to slip too much in this situation. The OEM 500 was a slipper clutch, made for smoothness and [the best ever] shifting operation, and they could be smoked on the track back when. So, this will need some extra support.

This sounds very interesting. I've never heard about using a 750 clutch in a 550 engine. That could solve a problem I'm having with the Interceptor. Could you explain? Thanks

Maybe I should say, '750 clutch PLATES'? The 500 came with slanted-cut cork plates, which slip by design. For apps like this, I switch them to square-cut plates for more grip.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2015, 02:42:50 PM »
This isn't mine, lol. This is going to a local guy who is having a cafe themed motorcycle completed.

Oops!
Do I have your forum name mixed up with his?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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Offline Kemp

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2015, 05:39:19 AM »
I used CB500 steel plates and CB650 or cork plates to get extra set of plates with the stock CB500 stack height retained. The CB500 steel plates are the thinnest and the CB650 cork plates likewise. This makes for an extremely smooth acting and strong clutch. I'm not positive if I used CB550 or CB650 cork plates but whatever was thinnest. I did this because the CB500 clutch would slip at full power shifts but now it is super smooth and strong. I haven't ridden the CB500 in several years so apologies for being a bit vague about the mod

Offline Tews19

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2015, 06:09:21 AM »
Or, you could really step up the game and use the Davies 6-speed trans and Nova dry clutch and turn this thing loose! Since you're using a 500 lower end, its a perfect match.

Please elaborate? This is new to me!
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Offline bwaller

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2015, 10:16:06 AM »
can you let go that push rod chlutch..and modd it to a 550 by use a clutch cover from 550?..as i renember there is a minor thange in the castings..a blub vith a velder can make it fit.. you can easy opgrate to a ekstra set of plates..bu use thinner steel plates and make  a bit more room in the clutch housing..and not use the dubbel damper plate...as some 500/550 have used..500 and 550 dont rattel in chlutch ,like 750..so its a Waste to have it mounted..

Yep, I'll be trying this, too! With the thinner plates we can get today from the superbikes (which sometimes get mixed in with our bikes' parts in the sellers on the Internet) we can slip in an extra friction plate, if all the right pieces are picked.

I used CB500 steel plates and CB650 or cork plates to get extra set of plates with the stock CB500 stack height retained. The CB500 steel plates are the thinnest and the CB650 cork plates likewise. This makes for an extremely smooth acting and strong clutch. I'm not positive if I used CB550 or CB650 cork plates but whatever was thinnest. I did this because the CB500 clutch would slip at full power shifts but now it is super smooth and strong. I haven't ridden the CB500 in several years so apologies for being a bit vague about the mod

Exactly! :)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline GV1390

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2015, 11:12:51 AM »
This isn't mine, lol. This is going to a local guy who is having a cafe themed motorcycle completed.

Oops!
Do I have your forum name mixed up with his?

I am shipping you an engine for Jared (Trad on here).

You also have an engine you are building for a guy who is local to me, I believe that's who you are referring to, his name is Cameron.
93' GSX-R1100, 78' CB550, 71' CL350, 71’ CB500 & 02' ZRX1200R.

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2015, 11:14:39 AM »
http://www.novaracing.co.uk/ProductHondaCB500-4Gearbox.html


http://www.novaracing.co.uk/ProductHondaCB500-4DryClutchKit.html


First gear is taller but you'll get used to it.  ;D

Q: How fast can I get it to go?

A: How much do you want to spend?

Wow, those are some trick bits!  I see they even offer GP reverse pattern shifting for 750s.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2015, 03:50:08 PM »
This isn't mine, lol. This is going to a local guy who is having a cafe themed motorcycle completed.

Oops!
Do I have your forum name mixed up with his?

I am shipping you an engine for Jared (Trad on here).

You also have an engine you are building for a guy who is local to me, I believe that's who you are referring to, his name is Cameron.

Yeah, that's the guy!
:)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Camrector

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2015, 06:34:07 PM »
Just found this thread . It's mine lol! Beautiful to see the Hondaman at work!

Offline hsas.69

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2015, 07:08:23 AM »
Im in on this one too. Just got my first 550 and have been thinking of making a 600ish out of it. And who better to get advise and follow his lead than HM!

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Offline Justin

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2015, 10:00:24 AM »

Subscribed just to see Hondaman type out his extensive knowledge haha  ;)

What he said


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Offline Kickstart

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2015, 05:51:29 PM »
Subscribed!
- Chris
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2015, 07:05:57 PM »
I was gone to Arkansas for a week, then got bitten by a Brown Recluse when I got home, just getting back on my 'feet' again. I can still feel my pulse inside the bite!
:(

I got the bored cylinders back Thursday this week, wasn't "up" to doing much with it just then, though. I have to next port the head, will be posting of that next this week or so. :)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Camrector

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2015, 07:15:05 PM »
That's horrible! Glad your feeling better HM!

Offline hsas.69

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #42 on: November 22, 2015, 07:26:48 PM »
Cant wait to hear/see. Take it easy though HondaMan those brown recluse aren't nothing to mess around with

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #43 on: November 25, 2015, 06:56:11 PM »
Got to play some more: I have a 500 and the G-EX engine side-by-side today. I ported both heads. The G-EX head needs a wide quench band for the bigger bores, and this particular 500 head (not the G-EX) had nearly perfect valve seat bowls, something seldom seen. You can see the differences in these pix.

The CB500 head is deshrouded around the intake valves and valve bowls, although this particular head needs very little of the latter trimmed back: it was pretty good for a 500! The intakes are pocket-ported slightly and the exhaust ports have all step-in type blockages trimmed back.

The G-EX head is ported quite some more to help feed the extra 90 cubes. It is also flattened more between the valves to facilitate inflow and lower exhaust stroke pressures, as the valves are small-ish for this many CCs, too.

The next step for them is to have the heads milled a little bit to ensure flatness, the valve seats all recut, with 3-angle seats, to match the valve guide angles, and all the ports will get bead-blasted to smooth out leftover tooling marks where my thick fingers can't reach in and smooth them out.
:)

Then both of them will get the long-thin file treatment: there is some flash in the head passages. It takes very little flash to reduce the airflow through the head, so especially in the G-EX head this will be important as the final compression ratio will be over 10:1.

These heads (and their little brothers) have a nasty tendency to warp a bit in the valve angles, which causes slow valve closure and increased valve opening pressures (in the rockers and shafts). This is much like the 'oval cylinder' problems these engine face: after about 5000 miles they settle and stop moving, so making good seats again after that will make them seal forever. The trick is to do this while still retaining tight valve guide clearances: I use .0006" to 0.0010" (intake) and 0.0008"-0.0014" (exhaust) in these little heads, as this cools tha valves better and increases the valve seal precision.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 07:14:16 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline hsas.69

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #44 on: November 25, 2015, 08:10:57 PM »
Im really curious how the size of your ports compare to the size of the valve? I know from larger engines the amount of flow versus the velocity of the flow greatly determine the power output. Not only peak numbers but also the width of the curve.

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Offline grcamna2

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #45 on: November 25, 2015, 09:02:46 PM »
subscribed and enjoying the lessons  :)
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  I love the small ones too !
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #46 on: November 25, 2015, 09:39:55 PM »
Im really curious how the size of your ports compare to the size of the valve? I know from larger engines the amount of flow versus the velocity of the flow greatly determine the power output. Not only peak numbers but also the width of the curve.

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Well...this explanation will take a while, but for those who care, here goes...

The situation in the CB500/550 head is a little more complex than most, as it is fed via a long intake runner from the carb(s). This was doubtless done to improve the flat-power curve sensation of this smallbore engine, which otherwise would be very peaky, starting at 5000 RPM or more, because of the small valve area and oversquare bore.

With the long runners, we can get "free turbocharging" above 3000 RPM by making some extra volume available above the intake valve. With these engines, the intake valve's opening before BTC (5 degrees) while the exhaust is still open, the waste spark often fires the residual charge left in the chamber, especially if the mixture is a little too rich. This causes a mild backfire we dubbed 'spitback' that stalls the incoming mixture charge, causing a slight delay before this pulse wears off and the intake charge begins again. The total effect loses about 7-10 degrees of intake stroke "time" at low engine speeds (below 4000 RPM in the 500), so the engine suffers a significant 'flat spot' in the power curve. This also makes a momentary low-pressure wave toward the carbs' idle jet, which makes it 'burb' a tiny bit of extra fuel (because they mix extra-rich at lower speeds), increasing the richness problem in the 2000-4000 RPM range. This is one big reason for the D7E heatrange sparkplug in these engines, which is hot enough to burn this off IF the rider runs up to at least 5500 RPM on the shift. (and, if you tour, this is why you should switch it to something cooler, like a D8ES-L or X24ES-U).

To overcome the 'flatness' a bit, Honda installed low gearing and advanced the spark a little sooner to add some 'pep' to gears 1-2 in city-like riding.

The 500 was initially aimed at the rider who was intimidated by 1) the 750's price and 2) the 750's sudden clutch, gearbox, and [then] relentless power curve from idle to redline, compared to other bikes of the day. When it first appeared, it was GONE from every dealer as soon as it was out of the box, and much loved for the more 'sedate' personality, as most of its riders were new to the sport. Honda was real sensitive to this market, too. It wasn't until those [new] riders matured in their riding and wanted more 'snap' that the 550 came out, and I remember many riders trading their 500 for the 550 because of the bike's personality change.

Today, this becomes a challenge to 'undo' some of the tame nature that was built in on purpose. It isn't hard to do, but it takes several steps. Utilizing those long intake runners, we can make the volume over the inlet valves quite a bit larger than Honda did (they made VERY low ceilings over the valves to keep the slow-speed performance 'linear' over RPM) and capture 2 things at once: first, we allow a place for the 'spitback' to accumulate (at low engine speeds) without pushing the charge back at the carbs so much, so the carbs mix better. In effect, we are "eating" the spitback pulse right inside the head, above the intake valve, by making a pocket there which can harbor it for a moment of time. This allows the incoming air mass to more quickly turn the pulse around, back to the chamber, and all the fuel that may have started to burn up toward the intake tract at that point is now pushed out the exhaust instead. This then 'cleans up' end enrichens the next charge a little bit, resulting in more torque on the next power stroke.

As the engine speeds up, the spitback stops for lack of [burn] time. Above 5000 RPM on this engine, there is (and always has been) a distinct "switch" sensation where the power comes up a bunch, over the 5000-6000 RPM range. This is the loss of spitback as it is dying away. Above 6000 RPM the intake runners' extra length now allows another phenomenon to occur: the air moving up those pipes now has enough inertia to keep moving after the intake valve has shut. If there is more volume added above the intake valve to hold it, this airflow can pressurize this little pocket until the next time the valve opens, and this pressure provides a head-start into the chamber for the next charge cycle. Since this mass of air then does not slow down at the carbs, due to the long-distance tubes feeding the head, the carbs start mixing more effectively, too.

There is a practical limit to the size of the pocket over the valve, though. This limit is: too much pocket causes VERY poor low-speed engine control. This is why Detroit makes cars with "variable venturi manifolds" and other tricky, computer-driven gadgets, to solve this problem by shrinking the passages at low RPM and widening them as the engines winds up.

To overcome this part, there are several things we can do with wrenches, pliers, and the like. One is: don't make the pocket too big. Another is: delay the spark advance a little bit (especially since the advancer springs are now a little bit annealed, softer than they used to be) so the spitback is delayed in starting. Another is: make sure the flow into the chamber is slick as snot.

Honda's transitions across the valves are, well, conventionally manufactured, given 1970s technology. To make the valve seats, they bored a hole into the combustion chamber, using the valve guide as their alignment platform, then pressed a valve seat into it, followed by a ball-shaped cutter head that carved away the surface of the seat until the (attached) digital scale read "nnn.n" millimeters depth. This was a best-guess measurement, based on some number of head castings, so your particular head might have shallow, or very deep, seat pockets, depending on whether your head was at the maximum, minimum, or somewhere in between, as measured between the 2 dowel (jig) holes on the top of the head and the cylinder surface of the head. If the former, it looks like this CB500 head in the pix above: if more common, it looks like most of the heads we see, with the surface of the closed valve at or below the curve of the chamber's surface. This deep bowl (of the latter) causes the airflow to have to turn about 30 degrees as it enters the chamber, during the first 0.1 to 1.5mm of valve lift time.

So...if we grind away those deep bowl edges around the resulting deep-set versions of these heads, then mill the head back to remove the added chamber volume (to increase the compression back to what it was), we can change this 30-degree turn into a simple sideways flow, like in the 'perfect' heads that sometimes occurred (much like the 500 head above). This, in effect, increases the early-opening time of the cam, without modifying the cam. It can act as 3 degrees extra cam duration in a 'bad' head, or almost no change if the head was nearly perfect. To add to this, many of the inlet valves used have little lip edges on them (which were manufacturing guides) which can be polished or ground away to improve this early-start airflow even more, so I usually do that, too. And, polishing the back side of the valve ALWAYS improves the flow, another tiny bit, by thinning the laminar buildup in the valve's open area.

After you start adding [a tiny bit of flow] to [a little bit more charge] to [less spitback] to [better valve sealing] you always end up with a noticeable difference in these engines. That's always been the "secret" to making these bikes howl.
;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline hsas.69

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #47 on: November 25, 2015, 10:18:04 PM »
Thanks for the explanation! Man i would love to sit down and talk shop with you sometime. If you ever head back to western illinois id like to buy you some beer/coffee.

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Offline Camrector

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #48 on: November 25, 2015, 10:32:07 PM »
Wow I'm a blessed and lucky man! Thank you HM

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Gentleman's Express 550 engine build
« Reply #49 on: November 25, 2015, 10:47:15 PM »
My shop was in Macomb, back in those days (1971-1974). It was first called "Wheels of Western Illinois", later shortened to "Western Wheels" when the building owner discovered how much the sign cost for the whole name...

I started my "professional" Honda shop work at Spring Honda, now known as Elmhurst Honda. It was on Spring Street in Elmhurst when I was there in 1969 and 1970 summers, between college. It moved out onto the main hiway in 1974 or so, changing names then.  I bought my first 750K1 at Mannheim Honda on Mannheim Road in 1970, where several of us also witnessed the "mystery 750" that was actually 700cc, undersized bore, different pistons and cam, and a giant-killer of a bike: it could beat anything running in those days, but was thought to be a stock CB750 until it sucked a valve and we could not find one the same size (not 750 size!) anywhere. Mannheim had sold it to the owner, and it was thought to be an off-the-shelf 750! I still wonder what happened with that bike. I had some SuperHawk racing parts that were real close, but I think the stem size turned out to be too big, or something like that, in the end.

I worked also at Brown's Sport Center in Peoria in 1969/1970/1971 Fall-Winter-Spring (and "Brown's Cycle Center", their sister shop in Pekin). I think Honda gave their franchise to a much larger shop on the north end of town in 1975, though. This place was where I met (the great) Jim Chamberlain, who owned the first sandcast sold in Peoria in 1970. He was a schoolmate at Bradley then, from upstate New York. He toured 5 times each year, winter or summer, to NY on his 750, and he had the serial #2 Phantom fairing from Craig Vetter. His 750 was the prototype bike said to be used to lay up the first Windjammers (fiberglass types, like mine), too. It was thru Jim I met Craig, in 1971.

Ah, the old days...when dirt was young, regulators had no clue, and Carter had not yet been elected...
 :)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com