Topic: Bye Bye Dyna! It's been real.

[Geeto67]

It would be nice if HD or Indian made an accessible to most bike based off its current race bikes as a street tracker, so that consumers could have it on the street or easily convert to dirt for Hooligan style racing (stock frame).  The Indian FTR (Flat Track Racer) is obviously kicking the teeth out of the HD Street 750-based flat track racer; Indian will be selling the FTR for $50K (mostly for privateers and you have to have 2 to compete), but it would be prudent for both brands to make a more affordable version.  It helps that Indian assembled a Wrecking Crew of the top 3 riders this year.

They did that - it was called the XR1200. Vance and Hines sold a conversion kit for a road racer and Harley even sponsored a series. Nobody bought them and HD cancelled the bike in the US.

as for flat track - there are a dozen companies that sell racing parts for sportsters for amateur flat track. People even keep them as street bikes between racing them. Just not very many.  here is an example for sale in my neighborhood:
https://akroncanton.craigslist.org/mcy/d/1996-harley-sportster-flat/6234565135.html

It might be that the XR1200 was too poor of a seller that HD will not do a factory version for the current Street 750-based racer -- or they might come out with one in the future.  Who knows.  It would probably help if they could win more races on it against Indian.  HD spends oodles on marketing and even does invited/sponsored custom builds (like at Born Free) to showcase this model and the Street Rod.  As I recall the XR1200 is now a sought-after bike.

It'll be interesting to see how flat track racing grows or plateaus in the coming years.  That could drive more sales in this category (race on Sunday, sell on Monday).

If HD's Street based flat tracker the XG750R can beat indian's FTR750 to the post in the season then who knows. Anytime HD wins some championship with new product they shout it from the heavens. If they get favorable feedback they will at least try a styling exercise. Rumors are already circulating about indian doing some kind of scout based edition but it may be just a paint and sticker package. If they don't we won't see anything.

I wish there was a good guide as to what bikes are competing in AMA's AFT Twins' series. The HD and Indian are both there but I think also Kawasaki with the ninja 650 and the fz07 yamaha. this is where the AMA's website falls down - when you pull up the standings it only shows the riders and not the make/model of bike, you have to go to the event results for each event to see where things are. The current fight seems to be between the ninja and the FTR750, with the sole FZ-07 holding it's own out there as well in the points. The HD's all seem to be at the bottom in most events - I haven't seen an XG750R finishing higher than 3rd in any event, so prognosis doesn't look good.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

It would be nice if HD or Indian made an accessible to most bike based off its current race bikes as a street tracker, so that consumers could have it on the street or easily convert to dirt for Hooligan style racing (stock frame).  The Indian FTR (Flat Track Racer) is obviously kicking the teeth out of the HD Street 750-based flat track racer; Indian will be selling the FTR for $50K (mostly for privateers and you have to have 2 to compete), but it would be prudent for both brands to make a more affordable version.  It helps that Indian assembled a Wrecking Crew of the top 3 riders this year.

They did that - it was called the XR1200. Vance and Hines sold a conversion kit for a road racer and Harley even sponsored a series. Nobody bought them and HD cancelled the bike in the US.

as for flat track - there are a dozen companies that sell racing parts for sportsters for amateur flat track. People even keep them as street bikes between racing them. Just not very many.  here is an example for sale in my neighborhood:
https://akroncanton.craigslist.org/mcy/d/1996-harley-sportster-flat/6234565135.html

It might be that the XR1200 was too poor of a seller that HD will not do a factory version for the current Street 750-based racer -- or they might come out with one in the future.  Who knows.  It would probably help if they could win more races on it against Indian.  HD spends oodles on marketing and even does invited/sponsored custom builds (like at Born Free) to showcase this model and the Street Rod.  As I recall the XR1200 is now a sought-after bike.

It'll be interesting to see how flat track racing grows or plateaus in the coming years.  That could drive more sales in this category (race on Sunday, sell on Monday).

If HD's Street based flat tracker the XG750R can beat indian's FTR750 to the post in the season then who knows. Anytime HD wins some championship with new product they shout it from the heavens. If they get favorable feedback they will at least try a styling exercise. Rumors are already circulating about indian doing some kind of scout based edition but it may be just a paint and sticker package. If they don't we won't see anything.

I wish there was a good guide as to what bikes are competing in AMA's AFT Twins' series. The HD and Indian are both there but I think also Kawasaki with the ninja 650 and the fz07 yamaha. this is where the AMA's website falls down - when you pull up the standings it only shows the riders and not the make/model of bike, you have to go to the event results for each event to see where things are. The current fight seems to be between the ninja and the FTR750, with the sole FZ-07 holding it's own out there as well in the points. The HD's all seem to be at the bottom in most events - I haven't seen an XG750R finishing higher than 3rd in any event, so prognosis doesn't look good.

Last year Bryan Smith dominated with his Kawasaki 650-based twin. 

This year the Indian Scout FTR is almost unbeatable.  Like I posted above, Indian will be selling the Scout FTR race bike for $50K: https://rideapart.com/articles/indian-scout-ftr750-flat-track-race-bike-for-sale

Indian/Polaris spent a boatload of money developing this bike in less than a year and making it immediately competitive/dominant with the 3 top riders.  It's interesting that HD's factory effort this year ditched the air cooled XR and went completely to the XG750 (Street 750) based bike.  The bummer is that it is a big step down from the Indian.  HD has only one a couple of races this whole year, and Indian has swept or dominated the podium in almost every race.

[Bailgang]

Your argument would be more compelling if you were talking about flat track, where the rules have been specifically retooled to keep the XR750 competitive (and even now it is still losing ground). However, you are just #$%*ing about what every racing organization has known for decades, different engine configurations make power differently and require different rules to put everyone in the same performance index. There are true heads up unlimited classes, but pro-stock has never really been one (top fuel and funny car on the other hand have).

Who's arguing? Even many of the Jap bike teams endorsed the idea that diversity was needed, it's the Jap bike crowd meaning the Jap bike fans that are the ones still complaining. Regardless of ones views about the lack of parity in the rules of pro stock bike the result has none the less been positive to the class as a whole. The problem I see (and I'm just guessing) with HD is that the image it has created has turned into a vicious circle that has been profitable but has them stuck in a rut as well, it's not that they can't develop something other than a V-twin but more so maybe because they're afraid to try because they're not so sure the HD faithful want them to in the first place. They've kicked the idea around of a V4 with project nova during the AMF years no less and from what I've read they've kicked the idea around again off and on but has never come to fruition. I've read that it got nixed because they didn't feel it would be profitable, even heard a story that said Willie G didn't like it because to him it didn't sound like an HD should and never got past the prototype stage .... who knows but it sure would be nice if it were to happen and reach production.

[Lostboy Steve]

Right, but the sportster is the right type of entry level because it doesn't absolutely have to be entry level.

That's an interesting point and actually 100% correct. The sportster was probably the most "approachable" motorcycle in the line up as a jack of some trades and did enough things well that if you didn't need to you could not outgrow it. Everyone I have ever known with a ninja 250 eventually sold it and bought something bigger because even for commuting they out grew it. The only guy I ever knew that purposely searched out small displacement "beginner bikes" as a commuter is Dave Roper (the IOM TT winner). He rode around brooklyn for years on I think an 80's VTR250 and before that it might have been an ex250. But that guy is fast on anything.

The street 500 and street 750 are not "light and nimble" unless you're comparing them to other Harley's, which is exactly my point.

have you ridden one yet? I have sat on a few, and I really do want to ride one just to see what it is like, but sitting on it - it doesn't feel like a 500lb bike. It feels small to me because I am tall, but I betcha it feels nimble enough for most riders. It's never going to feel like a 375lb ninja 250, but let's be honest - few things will, there are 70's two strokes that are heavier than the little ninjette. 

On the other hand, anyone who has ridden an ultra and then a softail will tell you that the ultra (trunk and all) handles way better than a softail. The ultra also gets down lower through the turns.

the bikes that compete with the goldwing have to work. People who buy those buy them for 2 reasons: how well they work (including comfort) and how good the bodywork looks. HD pours cubic cash into them and then asks $27,000 for them and when you ride it you know exactly where the money went. they don't have to spend money on frames that look like hardtails, or other visual gimmickry that isn't related to the shape of saddlebags and fairings because...well...the bags and fairings hide all the ugly.

the bikes I have always loved riding, despite never owning one, are the police bikes. Stock trim they just work. I have lots of buddies that bought cheap ones at auctions and then applied all the usual HD visual crap to it and the bike never rode the same.

Eff yeah Police road kings! You ever watch those guys do the courses? Crazy!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lostboy Steve]

HD should bring back there "upgrade" sales strategy back.  I remember when you paid something like $3999 for an 883 Sportster and HD would give you that for a trade-in in 2 years...it got ALOT of people into HD's.  I've rode pretty much all the traditional HD's and the Dyna line always rode better than the "slop"tails, and had less vibration due to the rubber mounted engine like the touring line.  I haven't looked at the street series and while I wouldn't buy one, I would like to see how they ride.  I've got a sort of "home" Moco dealer that I've delt with through the years and they do rentals, so I can test ride whatever they rent, may have to take a little trip on the K8 and see......lol.

I've always wanted a Dyna, there's a trend going on with turning them into early FL styled "retro" bikes.  With the suspension upgrades that are available for them they become pretty "flickable" for a Harley.  There a bit smaller and lighter than a Road King and WAAAAAAYY cheaper to buy.

I wonder if you just uncovered the truth. What if Harley in an attempt to boost sales of their larger bikes cancelled the dyna? Take away the choice for mid sized bike and push the larger bikes on people. If you walk into a harley dealer tomorrow, I bet they try to steer you onto a softail even if you're showing interest in a "street" model.

It's a giant conspiracy!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[USMC5811]

After reading all of these posts, some twice, I went down to the garage and hugged my CB750


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

I think the newbies to the forum probably think we "conspire" to have them spend all their time and money on Honda SOHC4s!

[Geeto67]

They've kicked the idea around of a V4 with project nova during the AMF years no less and from what I've read they've kicked the idea around again off and on but has never come to fruition. I've read that it got nixed because they didn't feel it would be profitable, even heard a story that said Willie G didn't like it because to him it didn't sound like an HD should and never got past the prototype stage .... who knows but it sure would be nice if it were to happen and reach production.

I don't know why HD doesn't like to talk about the Nova, but the story of the Nova is the story of HDs independence. AMF purchased HD in the late 60's when HD's corporate culture was at its all time low. The internal departments were fighting with each other and the results were pretty shoddy bikes. AMF applied its industrial mfg expiremce to the company which led to strikes, worse products, and a bankruptcy for HD.  People like to blame AMF for poor quality of HDs, but really the strike bikes were only 1-2 model years, HDs pre AMF quality wasn't great to begin with. Anyway, after the dust settled the product improved and HD went from bankrupt to one of the more profitable leisure divisions by 1976. It was at that point AMF (at the pinehurst meeting) decided to invest in diversifying HD's product line. AMF was headed by Rodney Gott who was himself a motorcyclist and HD fan and was involved in the original AMF purchase of HD, approved the investment in development. By 1978 however Gott was out in favor of Tom York as the head of AMF. Tom was a controversial figure in AMF's history because he only saw leisure activities as existing to fund the heavy industry, and also because he liked to suck the coffiers dry and increase executive compensation. He would be forced out by 1985. York cancelled investment in the Nova, claiming lack of profitability but more likely because he wanted to redirect that development  money to industrial mfg and his pocket. This action was one of the "last straw" items for the HD loyalists like Willie G, who saw that under AMF's thumb they were never going to live up to their full potential. In 1981 they bought the company from AMF. The investment group early years were lean years and they couldn't afford the Nova, and by the time they could time had marched on and the design was dated - so they put the money in to the development of the VR1000  instead.

There is a lot of "legend" around Willie G's relationship with the Nova. One thing that is known is that he hated the design teams function over form approach to the project and insisted on several design changes to make the bike look better. This added to the complexity of the motorcycle which delayed the project. The radiator and fuel tanks were the biggest changes - even though the Japanese just hung the rad right out front on their bikes at the time, Willie insisted it be hidden under seat - this lead the fuel tanks to be relocated under the seat also and fed by fuel pump. The design looks clean but think about all that complexity from a reliability standpoint in the late 70's. At the time the only other bike doing that was the GL1000

[Killer Canary]

Right, but the sportster is the right type of entry level because it doesn't absolutely have to be entry level.

That's an interesting point and actually 100% correct. The sportster was probably the most "approachable" motorcycle in the line up as a jack of some trades and did enough things well that if you didn't need to you could not outgrow it. Everyone I have ever known with a ninja 250 eventually sold it and bought something bigger because even for commuting they out grew it. The only guy I ever knew that purposely searched out small displacement "beginner bikes" as a commuter is Dave Roper (the IOM TT winner). He rode around brooklyn for years on I think an 80's VTR250 and before that it might have been an ex250. But that guy is fast on anything.
Google "harley death wobble" and you'll see how truly talented those cops are when dealing with  inferior machinery.

The street 500 and street 750 are not "light and nimble" unless you're comparing them to other Harley's, which is exactly my point.

have you ridden one yet? I have sat on a few, and I really do want to ride one just to see what it is like, but sitting on it - it doesn't feel like a 500lb bike. It feels small to me because I am tall, but I betcha it feels nimble enough for most riders. It's never going to feel like a 375lb ninja 250, but let's be honest - few things will, there are 70's two strokes that are heavier than the little ninjette. 

On the other hand, anyone who has ridden an ultra and then a softail will tell you that the ultra (trunk and all) handles way better than a softail. The ultra also gets down lower through the turns.

the bikes that compete with the goldwing have to work. People who buy those buy them for 2 reasons: how well they work (including comfort) and how good the bodywork looks. HD pours cubic cash into them and then asks $27,000 for them and when you ride it you know exactly where the money went. they don't have to spend money on frames that look like hardtails, or other visual gimmickry that isn't related to the shape of saddlebags and fairings because...well...the bags and fairings hide all the ugly.

the bikes I have always loved riding, despite never owning one, are the police bikes. Stock trim they just work. I have lots of buddies that bought cheap ones at auctions and then applied all the usual HD visual crap to it and the bike never rode the same.

Eff yeah Police road kings! You ever watch those guys do the courses? Crazy!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Google "harley death wobble" and you'll see how talented those cops are when dealing with inferior machinery.

[Swoop]

And say goodbye to the Vrod too.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Right, but the sportster is the right type of entry level because it doesn't absolutely have to be entry level.

That's an interesting point and actually 100% correct. The sportster was probably the most "approachable" motorcycle in the line up as a jack of some trades and did enough things well that if you didn't need to you could not outgrow it. Everyone I have ever known with a ninja 250 eventually sold it and bought something bigger because even for commuting they out grew it. The only guy I ever knew that purposely searched out small displacement "beginner bikes" as a commuter is Dave Roper (the IOM TT winner). He rode around brooklyn for years on I think an 80's VTR250 and before that it might have been an ex250. But that guy is fast on anything.
Google "harley death wobble" and you'll see how truly talented those cops are when dealing with  inferior machinery.

The street 500 and street 750 are not "light and nimble" unless you're comparing them to other Harley's, which is exactly my point.

have you ridden one yet? I have sat on a few, and I really do want to ride one just to see what it is like, but sitting on it - it doesn't feel like a 500lb bike. It feels small to me because I am tall, but I betcha it feels nimble enough for most riders. It's never going to feel like a 375lb ninja 250, but let's be honest - few things will, there are 70's two strokes that are heavier than the little ninjette. 

On the other hand, anyone who has ridden an ultra and then a softail will tell you that the ultra (trunk and all) handles way better than a softail. The ultra also gets down lower through the turns.

the bikes that compete with the goldwing have to work. People who buy those buy them for 2 reasons: how well they work (including comfort) and how good the bodywork looks. HD pours cubic cash into them and then asks $27,000 for them and when you ride it you know exactly where the money went. they don't have to spend money on frames that look like hardtails, or other visual gimmickry that isn't related to the shape of saddlebags and fairings because...well...the bags and fairings hide all the ugly.

the bikes I have always loved riding, despite never owning one, are the police bikes. Stock trim they just work. I have lots of buddies that bought cheap ones at auctions and then applied all the usual HD visual crap to it and the bike never rode the same.

Eff yeah Police road kings! You ever watch those guys do the courses? Crazy!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Google "harley death wobble" and you'll see how talented those cops are when dealing with inferior machinery.

That was not as bad as I imagined.

But check this one out  . . .

[BomberMann650]

That video where the guy goes tank slappin into the front of the truck.
Absolutely #$%*ing terrifying.  The rider did not survive.
The slo-mo analysis of that incident does not make it more palpatable.

One thing I tell myself and all my friends - from twist of the wrist.  "Your bike can always steer more.  Just continue to press and lean."

[Killer Canary]

Not bad?
What if you'd just plunked down 25 bills for that experience?

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

That video where the guy goes tank slappin into the front of the truck.
Absolutely #$%*ing terrifying.  The rider did not survive.
The slo-mo analysis of that incident does not make it more palpatable.

One thing I tell myself and all my friends - from twist of the wrist.  "Your bike can always steer more.  Just continue to press and lean."

I, too, found it hard to believe that the rider survived that head-on collision with a freakin' fire truck!

[Terry in Australia]

That "Harley Death Wobble" vid was interesting, it seems like in the last couple of tests it went away? I wonder if they made some adjustments to tyre pressure and suspension settings?

I've only ridden "Big Twins" a couple of times, but I remember riding a mate's Road King and chasing him (he was riding my Triumph Rocket III) @ 100(+) MPH and marvelling at how stable the Road King felt? It may have had a gentle wallow (not unlike a CB750) but nothing like what was experienced in that vid.

Tank slappers are possible on any bike though, I know the Harley haters like to point out Harley's shortcomings whenever possible, but all of my tank slappers have been on Jap bikes, and I even see them happening occasionally at Moto GP and Superbike races, especially when tyres start going "off". On road bikes, tyre pressures and suspension settings (not to mention swingarm bushes and steering head bearings) are all important. Cheers, Terry.    

[Lostboy Steve]

That "Harley Death Wobble" vid was interesting, it seems like in the last couple of tests it went away? I wonder if they made some adjustments to tyre pressure and suspension settings?

I've only ridden "Big Twins" a couple of times, but I remember riding a mate's Road King and chasing him (he was riding my Triumph Rocket III) @ 100(+) MPH and marvelling at how stable the Road King felt? It may have had a gentle wallow (not unlike a CB750) but nothing like what was experienced in that vid.

Tank slappers are possible on any bike though, I know the Harley haters like to point out Harley's shortcomings whenever possible, but all of my tank slappers have been on Jap bikes, and I even see them happening occasionally at Moto GP and Superbike races, especially when tyres start going "off". On road bikes, tyre pressures and suspension settings (not to mention swingarm bushes and steering head bearings) are all important. Cheers, Terry.

I rented an ultra down in Florida for a weekend and had that thing in a bunch of really good positions. Never had any wobble or anything. Actually, to this day probably the nicest bike I've ever been on. I just can't justify spending the money on one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Desert-SOHC]

That "Harley Death Wobble" vid was interesting, it seems like in the last couple of tests it went away? I wonder if they made some adjustments to tyre pressure and suspension settings?

I've only ridden "Big Twins" a couple of times, but I remember riding a mate's Road King and chasing him (he was riding my Triumph Rocket III) @ 100(+) MPH and marvelling at how stable the Road King felt? It may have had a gentle wallow (not unlike a CB750) but nothing like what was experienced in that vid.

Tank slappers are possible on any bike though, I know the Harley haters like to point out Harley's shortcomings whenever possible, but all of my tank slappers have been on Jap bikes, and I even see them happening occasionally at Moto GP and Superbike races, especially when tyres start going "off". On road bikes, tyre pressures and suspension settings (not to mention swingarm bushes and steering head bearings) are all important. Cheers, Terry.

My 05 Road King "wallowed" when pushed, I added the "3rd" link under the rear of the trans, triangulating the drivetrain mounting.  It was WAAAAY more stable after that, still had frame flex, but it was rock solid with no wallow after that, even blowing sparks off the floorboards.

[Desert-SOHC]

I wonder if you just uncovered the truth. What if Harley in an attempt to boost sales of their larger bikes cancelled the dyna? Take away the choice for mid sized bike and push the larger bikes on people. If you walk into a harley dealer tomorrow, I bet they try to steer you onto a softail even if you're showing interest in a "street" model.

It's a giant conspiracy!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Maybe!!!

[Desert-SOHC]

[

I rented an ultra down in Florida for a weekend and had that thing in a bunch of really good positions. Never had any wobble or anything. Actually, to this day probably the nicest bike I've ever been on. I just can't justify spending the money on one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If it was an 09 or later that was after the frame change and they got away from skinny rear tires.  The new frame was night and day difference in stability and handling.

[Terry in Australia]

Now if you want to experience "wallow" ride a 1980's Goldwing, my big black 'Wang would wobble and wallow all over the place, but that was just part of the fun of punting an 800 pound bike around fast curves. I'm kind of disappointed that my Rocket  III has a much stiffer chassis, the first I know when I've "over-cooked" a corner is when my foot boards dig in.

[Lostboy Steve]

[

I rented an ultra down in Florida for a weekend and had that thing in a bunch of really good positions. Never had any wobble or anything. Actually, to this day probably the nicest bike I've ever been on. I just can't justify spending the money on one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If it was an 09 or later that was after the frame change and they got away from skinny rear tires.  The new frame was night and day difference in stability and handling.

That would explain it. I think it was in 09.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Killer Canary]

My thinking is that harley haters and harley apologists can eat #$%* from the same pile.

[J-Rod10]

Harley makes good cruisers. That's what they do.

I think, the comparisons with the new Street models to the FZ, and like bikes is foolish. In comparison, they are overweight, and under powered.

Personally, I have always been a fan of the V-Rod, and I liked the XR1200. Thinking about buying an 09, with 280 miles on the clock.

I see the digs at Harley all the time on some of the sport bike pages I am on. But, they're not sport bikes. They're not meant to be. I was a huge fan of the Heritage I had. It was heavy, slow, a boat really, but it was perfect to just get out and eat miles on. That's what it was built to do.

[Desert-SOHC]

My thinking is that harley haters and harley apologists can eat #$%* from the same pile.

must be a libtard...........

[Desert-SOHC]

Now if you want to experience "wallow" ride a 1980's Goldwing, my big black 'Wang would wobble and wallow all over the place, but that was just part of the fun of punting an 800 pound bike around fast curves. I'm kind of disappointed that my Rocket  III has a much stiffer chassis, the first I know when I've "over-cooked" a corner is when my foot boards dig in.

Haven't rode an 80, but had a bagged out 75 that was a wobble-queen when pushed just a little.  Haven' been on any of the 6cyl though.