Author Topic: Nicklopic's CB650 cafe thing (Top end build with modern suspension) (Read 20148 times)

Nicklopic · « **Reply #125 on:** June 28, 2020, 08:29:43 AM »

Ive had you in the back of my mind since I saw your write up and issue on your thread. If/when this thing fails you'll be hearing from me haha. I really hope it doesn't just so I don't have to redo it lol but I'll try the less agressive maps and see if I feel anything. Did you pick up a few where there's a chance I'd notice on the butt Dyno or just a smidge?

And I'm in neither lol I'm the purgatory that is long island, like regular suburbs but way more crowded lol. Couple towns over from port Jeff where the Bridgeport ferry runs. My dad does have a house upstate, like 15/20 minutes north of lake George... Pretty sure both are a good ways away from you though. I'd be down though. Once the kinks are worked out and I'm more comfortable with it I want to put some real mileage on it lol

DaveBarbier · « **Reply #126 on:** June 28, 2020, 11:52:45 AM »

I actually never tried the different maps out on the road. I just used the default map and didn’t bother trying the others because I knew I was going to test them at the dyno. I don’t remember exactly but I think the other maps decreased the hp by about 10. They are more designed for riding two up with full gear from what Mike at C5 told me.

Ah yes, Long Island. I’m pretty close to Bridgeport, like 15-20 minutes. A buddy of mine had some friends come on the ferry to ride up in CT. We rode for a couple hours, it was a good time. Once you get comfortable with the bike and ignition it wouldn’t be a horrible idea to get a ride going.

Nicklopic · « **Reply #127 on:** June 28, 2020, 07:15:07 PM »

I think the base map, both wires grounded, has the most timing advance. That's the one I have since it said to use that one, removing the grounds I believe are all the maps with slight more retarded timing
Also you're not far at all then. I would definitely be down for that. Sounds like it would be fun. Definitely going to be a some time but I'd make the trip

As for my bike, I put the wideband on today. I got an exhaust adapter and pipe from work to make a piece to add a bung in. I needed a bit more length than a normal adapter but couldn't find one that was perfect so I made it with 2 pieces and butt them together and welded them together. Even added loops for springs to hold all the slip joints together like the RR exhaust has. The wideband is from PLX. It's a Bosch LSU 4.9, a controller that can be used for a variety of different tasks and a Bluetooth dongle so I can view AFRs on my phone so I can just mount it to my bars and monitor instead of wiring a gauge. The whole set up is COMPLETELY temporary. It's just for tuning it. Started raining as soon as I got it all together so I didn't get a chance to really see anything. Idle looks rich as I kind of figured from how it felt coming off idle riding, 11.8-12.3ish to 1. I'll see how playing with the mixture screws effects it and see if thatll be enough. (2.5 turns out atm)

DaveBarbier · « **Reply #128 on:** June 29, 2020, 04:30:53 AM »

Very nice, hope that makes it easy to tune!

Nicklopic · « **Reply #129 on:** June 29, 2020, 05:28:20 PM »

Jetting so far has not turned out how I thought it would.
I assumed with the ported head and slight overbore I'd be looking at lean mixtures, even felt it at WOT and felt choke helped it.
Set mixture screws to 1 turn out because I saw that while idling with the wideband and felt it. That helped just a touch, saw slightly leaner AFRs, like 12-12.5.
Wide-open throttle all of a sudden feels livelier. AFRs at around 13-13.5 but looses steam at about 7500 and just won't pull past 8k.
1/4 to half throttle feels like garbage. Hesitant, erratic. Give it a little more and it pulls, or twist the throttle a little more aggressively in that range to let the accelerator pump do its thing. AFRs here are all over the place. Either the needle jet range is WAYYYYY off or I'm getting fresh air being pulled in and skewing numbers.
The needle range felt great before, it's the only area where it would pull. Now? Not so much. I think I need to clean the carbs a bit. My tank has some rust that came back after acid cleaning it so maybe thats getting involved. Regardless, I have some finagling to do.
I should just buy CRs lol

DaveBarbier · « **Reply #130 on:** June 30, 2020, 04:29:24 AM »

Quote from: Nicklopic on June 29, 2020, 05:28:20 PM

Jetting so far has not turned out how I thought it would.
I assumed with the ported head and slight overbore I'd be looking at lean mixtures, even felt it at WOT and felt choke helped it.
Set mixture screws to 1 turn out because I saw that while idling with the wideband and felt it. That helped just a touch, saw slightly leaner AFRs, like 12-12.5.
Wide-open throttle all of a sudden feels livelier. AFRs at around 13-13.5 but looses steam at about 7500 and just won't pull past 8k.
1/4 to half throttle feels like garbage. Hesitant, erratic. Give it a little more and it pulls, or twist the throttle a little more aggressively in that range to let the accelerator pump do its thing. AFRs here are all over the place. Either the needle jet range is WAYYYYY off or I'm getting fresh air being pulled in and skewing numbers.
The needle range felt great before, it's the only area where it would pull. Now? Not so much. I think I need to clean the carbs a bit. My tank has some rust that came back after acid cleaning it so maybe thats getting involved. Regardless, I have some finagling to do.
I should just buy CRs lol

Keep at it. This is why people say pods suck and it’s best to keep the airbox. CR’s will NOT be easier. You’ll be in the same place you are now but will be like $700 poorer, haha. Plus the CR’s don’t have accelerator pumps which will give you a much snappier throttle response.

After ensuring the carbs are clean, set the IMS and then go right to figuring out the main jet at WOT and work down from there. Did you ever raise the needles from the factory setting (lowering the needle clip)?

Nicklopic · « **Reply #131 on:** June 30, 2020, 05:54:37 AM »

I knew it wasn't going to be a 1-2 thing, just weird it's not acting how it was for the past 40 miles all of a sudden lol

I thought the needle position was none adjustable on PD50 carbs? That's atleast what I read a number of times, I never looked myself.
From yesterday's short little rip, I think I need to step up to 122 mains, step down on the idle jet probably a 38 (I don't know the size that's in there but I'm 95% sure their 40s because I'm pretty sure my friend followed the chin on the tank write up before I got the bike) if I could raise the needle a bit that would be great but I'll have to see if I can or even shim it I guess. Just preliminary, Im thinking out loud

DaveBarbier · « **Reply #132 on:** June 30, 2020, 06:38:07 AM »

I’m not sure if it’s adjustable but if it doesn’t have a clip with grooves then shimming should work. Assuming there’s room above the needle for it to raise into. Generally with pods and 4-1 exhaust you need to raise the needles one notch.

Nicklopic · « **Reply #133 on:** June 30, 2020, 09:01:33 PM »

Pulled the carbs off and Jesus Christ there's a lot 9f rust 8n the bowls. I used acid to clean the tank in the fall and sprayed it all with fogging oil before storing it. I guess what grew was way worse than I thought. Lesson learned.
Also pulled the #2 bowl, and the main jet holder has apparently backed out... Explains the miraculous poor/weird running conditions.
Gonna still put the 122 main in based one how it felt before the wideband. Idk if I should shim the needles now while I'm in there or just wait. I think it would be a good idea but idk if I should do too much at once
Found 42 pilots inside, explains why it's rich at idle. I'll order some 40s and 38s.

DaveBarbier · « **Reply #134 on:** July 01, 2020, 04:26:10 AM »

I’d probably just fix what’s wrong and do more tests. Raise the needles only if needed.

Nicklopic · « **Reply #135 on:** July 22, 2020, 04:00:43 PM »

Ran into some hiccups that have prevented me from doing anything lately.
While I was changing the main jets on my first change, I pulled the bowls they were loaded with rust sediment. I couldn’t just throw them back on without cleaning the tank again. Welllllll that went fine until I used a little acetone when I was done to make sure all the water and stuff was gone. Turned what was left of the liner to a gummy consistency. (It was garbage and it’s probably for the best I felt with it now.)
Sent it to a local radiator shop, the got rid of the old liner and I guess used some red kote. Idk it’s red lol
I finally got the tank back after a couple weeks wait which was fine so I could focus on my Jeep a little lol
I’ll be talking to a body shop tomorrow to see about getting it painted or at least primed. The color I’m pretty set on will be a destroyer or nardo gray. I’d like to see a catalogue or something before a final decision.
Here’s something to look at until I have a better update. Liner, the weird plugs they added, and my junk Jeep driving over rocks last weekend for something interesting lol

DaveBarbier · « **Reply #136 on:** July 23, 2020, 04:18:02 AM »

I prefer no liners, unless of course you have a bunch of pin holes. Plain bare tank is much better.

Coming along!

You watch Matt’s off road recovery on YouTube? Pretty good channel.

Nicklopic · « **Reply #137 on:** July 23, 2020, 10:54:39 AM »

The tank was a bit rough inside and there was a ton of rust so I feel a little better that there’s an extra layer in there despite thinking it’s solid. I figured it’ll be done pretty well by then so I won’t have to worry about the horror stories you hear all the time
Never been a big YouTube channel guy and I fell out of wheeling for a while. This was like the first time I’ve wheeled in like a year or two now lol

SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan · « **Reply #138 on:** July 23, 2020, 02:51:59 PM »

Nick,

I forgot to ask. What did you have to do to shoehorn in the TLS swingarm into the 650 frame or was it a direct fit?

Nicklopic · « **Reply #139 on:** July 23, 2020, 04:36:36 PM »

It’s pretty straightforward honestly. Just a bushing for the swing arm pivot. I got the bike with the bushing already made for it so I don’t have any exact dimensions, I just took care of making it actually work. The wheel is dead straight with the backbone of the frame and tracks right out of the box. The rear brake lever pivot was in the way but I cut the passenger peg mounts off so that went bye bye anyway. I never had a centerstand on it and I cut the mounts off so I have no idea if that could have caused issues.
The SRAD 600 wheel is a necessity to make it work. Without it you’d have a massive 190 tire and chain clearance to the tire would be a problem. The wheel itself is a direct swap on the swing arm.
Obviously the sprocket carrier machining was pivotal since that let me run a reasonable offset front and allow it to clear the frame rails. I don’t have measurements on how much was removed because I told my friend to just kill what he could and I’d make up the rest with sprockets. 11/16 I think on the front, and the rear got a 2mm ish drag out (so it matched how the factory 530 TL sprockets were as that’s what I used for mock up throughout the build.

I can put together a more Concise step by step of what took if you like. I just rattled that off assuming anyone who stumbles on it will have read some of the build already

Nicklopic · « **Reply #140 on:** July 24, 2020, 06:17:15 PM »

I swear, it’s ALWAYS SOMETHING

I have an appointment Monday to talk to a body shop but I wanted to ride this weekend. I put the tank on with a new feed hose and a better filter. Flip the peacock on, the bowls fill and it starts pouring fuel from the T feed between carbs 1 and 2. I can get it to ease up/stop if I move the T side to side a little but like COME ONNNNNNN. Im pissed but whatever I guess.
Idk if I want to split the carbs myself or send them somewhere so they’re done nice and cleaned up. If you’ve got a place you like please let me know.

DaveBarbier · « **Reply #141 on:** July 25, 2020, 04:20:20 AM »

Damn, yeah it is always something. I’ve never split a rack of carbs but members do it all the time. I would go for it if I were you. Just look up a lot of forum posts and YouTube for tips/tricks.

Nicklopic · « **Reply #142 on:** July 25, 2020, 08:03:18 AM »

There’s so many little bits that it makes me hesitant to do it myself. I’m pretty sure I actually have all the oem O rings sitting in my garage from carb kits I got from dime city a while ago. I’m gonna watch some videos and stuff and see how I feel about it. I mean I should have everything to do it myself, even my ultra sonic cleaner to really get them nice

Nicklopic · « **Reply #143 on:** July 25, 2020, 08:24:35 AM »

Also since this is happening one way or another, should I paint the carb bodies the same as the motor in the cast iron color? The tops are already the same wrinkle black as the rocker covers. Then I’m thinking I’ll leave the bowls bare and shiny because it matches the shiny aluminum of the rear sets and swing arm.

DaveBarbier · « **Reply #144 on:** July 25, 2020, 11:00:46 AM »

That aesthetic stuff is up to you, haha. I think it would look nice but it might be easy to scratch if you have to install and remove for jetting and stuff. Although once it’s good to go, you can do all 3k mile maintenance stuff with the carbs in place. I personally hate painting so I’m against it all the time, haha. Maybe powder coat or cerakote? Both tough stuff. Cerakote more so.

SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan · « **Reply #145 on:** July 25, 2020, 11:18:20 AM »

Quote from: DaveBarbier on July 25, 2020, 11:00:46 AM

That aesthetic stuff is up to you, haha. I think it would look nice but it might be easy to scratch if you have to install and remove for jetting and stuff. Although once it’s good to go, you can do all 3k mile maintenance stuff with the carbs in place. I personally hate painting so I’m against it all the time, haha. Maybe powder coat or cerakote? Both tough stuff. Cerakote more so.

Color is up to you but I've been very happy with the cerakote finish on my carburetors. It is pretty much indestructible and thinner than powder coating.

Nicklopic · « **Reply #146 on:** July 25, 2020, 07:25:44 PM »

So... I overreacted. I need to get better at taking a step back from things and thinking before jumping to worst case scenarios.
I sat down to play with it a bit. It was leaking out of the #2 bowl. I guess it was leaking so bad it was following the edge, onto the crossover/feed tube between the carbs and getting everywhere. I guess the seal swelled a little and it wasn’t so bad so I could actually tell where it was coming from. I pulled the bowl, reset float height, put it back together and all was good... until I cranked the throttle putting the cables on. Apparently the o-ring for the accelerator pump fell out and I didn’t catch it. When it happened I’m not sure. Once I put a new one back in all was good again.

Fired it up and ran it a little. All good. Few throttle blips and it seemed snappier than before. I went from 120 to 125 mains and it seems to have responded well. I’ll try to go for a ride tomorrow and check AFRs. After a little digging I’m going to shoot for high 11s. Yes it’s on the rich side and won’t make peak power, but the extra fuel will keep temps lower for longevity. (I read a really cool interview that literally only talked about fuel mixtures with an shop that built air cooled Porsche race cars. On engines without liquid cooling they run richer mixtures because of the cooling effect of the extra unburnt fuel. They suggested 11.5 to 11.8 to 1 mixtures.) Found a few other sources with similar targets as well.

DaveBarbier · « **Reply #147 on:** July 26, 2020, 04:15:05 AM »

Good news! Go for that ride!

Nicklopic · « **Reply #148 on:** July 26, 2020, 09:52:03 PM »

Went for a ride today. Jesus it’s hot. I need a mesh riding jacket.

Biggest issue was the rear brake. Went to tap it to flash the brake lights as traffic ahead of me was slowing and it would hold for a second and then would drop. I had just gotten close to home so that was cool. Turns out the inner bleeder screw of the rear caliper backed out a turn so it would leak under pressure. Bled it and tightened it up, washed any fluid off and went out after I cooled off.

AFRs are getting better. It pulls harder now and keeps pulling longer. WOT at some RPM is about 12.5 so I think I’m going to step to 128s. Idle is still rich because I haven’t touched it. Cruise and part throttle is lean for the most part. I’ll see how the mid range changes with the next jet and decide whether to mess with the needle. (I think I’ll need to)

DaveBarbier · « **Reply #149 on:** July 27, 2020, 04:37:43 AM »

Yeah, I think you’ll need to raise the needles, but keep testing, all good info. Also your pipes are getting nice and golden yellow, mine’s the same, love the look. And if you care, that Hindle badge is just adhered to the muffler and can be easily removed. I believe I used fishing line to get behind it and “saw” it off, then cleaned up what was left with acetone.

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Author Topic: Nicklopic's CB650 cafe thing (Top end build with modern suspension) (Read 20148 times)