Author Topic: Phaedrus: CB750 RestoMod - Update: 09/23/21 w/ new video  (Read 867498 times)

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Offline MCRider

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 10/07/12 w/ new pics
« Reply #2525 on: October 08, 2012, 05:14:43 PM »
MC.....Maybe you would consider 'replacing' your sagged pump-spring from one of your other unts.

Too much bling for me.....but then I don't care for FJRs either. Phaedrus II will get you through the winter.
I pulled one, it was shorter than the pump i am using. In another thread someone had the measurement of a new spring. It was about 2mm longer than the one I'm using, 3.5 mm longer than the spring I pulled. So I'll be sticking with the longest one. I'll shop it at ACE etc for a quickie replacement, not much hope though.

I'll check spare pump #2, but i suspect the spring will be sacked as well. Since this is happening to everyone, a source for nrw springs would be good. HondaMan hints he'll have replacements for the rubber sealing cap, but not yet.

Too much bling, eh?   :D  I succeeded. Literally, i wanted it to be too much for someone, so you're it! Thanks!   ;)

Now i can concentrate on finishing it.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 06:07:17 PM by MCRider »
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1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
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Offline Tintop

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 10/07/12 w/ new pics
« Reply #2526 on: October 08, 2012, 08:09:23 PM »
Be careful with a 'quickie replacement' MCR.  You'll need something with the same spring rate.  Besides length, that also includes the wire diameter, and number of coils, so that it imparts the same pressure as the original.  I'd check out spring manufacturers.  You know the correct length, and your old one will give you the number of coils & diameter.  My .02
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 10/07/12 w/ new pics
« Reply #2527 on: October 08, 2012, 08:15:22 PM »
Be careful with a 'quickie replacement' MCR.  You'll need something with the same spring rate.  Besides length, that also includes the wire diameter, and number of coils, so that it imparts the same pressure as the original.  I'd check out spring manufacturers.  You know the correct length, and your old one will give you the number of coils & diameter.  My .02
Yeah, I was thinking about that. If I can't find one I'm real comfortable with, I'll be happy using the same one over, knowing that the piston is at least freed up to move properly.
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 10/07/12 w/ new pics
« Reply #2528 on: October 08, 2012, 08:23:11 PM »
Ron,

Here's some spring pics. Maybe they will help.

New



30,000 mile spring

As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline MCRider

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 10/07/12 w/ new pics
« Reply #2529 on: October 09, 2012, 06:12:16 AM »
Jerry: I thought it was your pics in another thread that i was referring to. Thanks for posting them here. My spring falls in between those two measurements.

IIRC, that's a new spring and you had a pic of a new rubber stopper as well. Were you just lucky in buying those back when they were available or do you have a source?
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Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 10/07/12 w/ new pics
« Reply #2530 on: October 14, 2012, 10:29:14 AM »
Didn't get as far as I thought, but still a good day. Had to clean up the shop. Installing some survellance cameras for the whole compound. Cardboard and packing materials everywhere. Renatl property projects got tools and bits of doors and knobs and window trim etc.  also scattered everywhere.

Got into the oil pump. Getting close to being an expert but there's a lot to know. Removed the bypass pressure switch. It had a monster spring on it. IF its a 60lb spring as HM book says, the spring for the stopper valve couldn't be more than 5lbs. I did look for a standard spring replacement at ACE but no luck. Still, I have little fear of replacing it with a proper dimension. The pressure itself can't be an issue. Maybe later. I used the old one over.



No gumbe in the over pressure valve. With the stopper valve replaced, one can catch the edge ofit with a fingernail and open it.


Reprimed the pump and installed it.

Got the new APE clutch and left it to soak in the oil pump prime oil.

Tempted to run the old barnett clutch from decades ago. But if in fact it was responsible for the slime on the oil pump screen, I just can't or shouldn't. So new it is.
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Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
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Offline Old Scrambler

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 10/07/12 w/ new pics
« Reply #2531 on: October 14, 2012, 03:21:30 PM »
Looking REAL good..............while your at the clutch........did you check each disk thickness?  I don't know which clutch pack you are running but the early bikes into the K2 are different from later K2 on...........Mark has it all documented.  Also, are those racing springs?  Personally, I would run standard springs.  They perform well and make life much easier on the lifter, the pressure plate, the cable, and YOUR HAND ;D ;D
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 10/07/12 w/ new pics
« Reply #2532 on: October 14, 2012, 07:44:16 PM »
Looking REAL good..............while your at the clutch........did you check each disk thickness?  I don't know which clutch pack you are running but the early bikes into the K2 are different from later K2 on...........Mark has it all documented.  Also, are those racing springs?  Personally, I would run standard springs.  They perform well and make life much easier on the lifter, the pressure plate, the cable, and YOUR HAND ;D ;D
When it was first born in 1980 I installed a Barnett/Action4s/WhoKnows high performance clutch with springs. I used that for 15 years and 50,000+ miles, loved it. Was working fine when I parked it.

Then it sat for 15 years, dried out in a box. Then I've put it back in this iteration. So now we're suspicious that the slime on the bottom of my oil pump, came from these plates disintegrating. So rather than risk it, I've decided to buy a new clutch and an APE clutch is less $$ than an OEM and has cache. The old clutch is not to be used as I don't want to pull the oil pump again.

So to answer your question no measurements have been made. I may measure the APE clutch or I may just throw it in trusting them that it'll work. Yes those are HD springs that came with it. Out of convenience sake I may just throw them in too. After we get it running for sure, I can tweak things. The old springs were HD as well but are sacked now. And i do have some low mileage stockers.

You do have a point that I'm not the man I used to be and an unnecessarily strong pull may be avoided.
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Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 10/14/12 w/ new pics
« Reply #2533 on: October 14, 2012, 09:37:15 PM »
Looking REAL good..............while your at the clutch........did you check each disk thickness?  I don't know which clutch pack you are running but the early bikes into the K2 are different from later K2 on...........Mark has it all documented.  Also, are those racing springs?  Personally, I would run standard springs.  They perform well and make life much easier on the lifter, the pressure plate, the cable, and YOUR HAND ;D ;D
When it was first born in 1980 I installed a Barnett/Action4s/WhoKnows high performance clutch with springs. I used that for 15 years and 50,000+ miles, loved it. Was working fine when I parked it.

Then it sat for 15 years, dried out in a box. Then I've put it back in this iteration. So now we're suspicious that the slime on the bottom of my oil pump, came from these plates disintegrating. So rather than risk it, I've decided to buy a new clutch and an APE clutch is less $$ than an OEM and has cache. The old clutch is not to be used as I don't want to pull the oil pump again.

So to answer your question no measurements have been made. I may measure the APE clutch or I may just throw it in trusting them that it'll work. Yes those are HD springs that came with it. Out of convenience sake I may just throw them in too. After we get it running for sure, I can tweak things. The old springs were HD as well but are sacked now. And i do have some low mileage stockers.

You do have a point that I'm not the man I used to be and an unnecessarily strong pull may be avoided.

After what just happened with Grumpy's new clutch plates (new, but only .131" thick, all), maybe take a quick thickness check on one or two of those friction plates? They should be no less than .135" for good grip with HD springs. The new Honda plates I have are still .141" thick.
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 10/14/12 w/ new pics
« Reply #2534 on: October 15, 2012, 06:40:26 AM »
Looking REAL good..............while your at the clutch........did you check each disk thickness?  I don't know which clutch pack you are running but the early bikes into the K2 are different from later K2 on...........Mark has it all documented.  Also, are those racing springs?  Personally, I would run standard springs.  They perform well and make life much easier on the lifter, the pressure plate, the cable, and YOUR HAND ;D ;D
When it was first born in 1980 I installed a Barnett/Action4s/WhoKnows high performance clutch with springs. I used that for 15 years and 50,000+ miles, loved it. Was working fine when I parked it.

Then it sat for 15 years, dried out in a box. Then I've put it back in this iteration. So now we're suspicious that the slime on the bottom of my oil pump, came from these plates disintegrating. So rather than risk it, I've decided to buy a new clutch and an APE clutch is less $$ than an OEM and has cache. The old clutch is not to be used as I don't want to pull the oil pump again.

So to answer your question no measurements have been made. I may measure the APE clutch or I may just throw it in trusting them that it'll work. Yes those are HD springs that came with it. Out of convenience sake I may just throw them in too. After we get it running for sure, I can tweak things. The old springs were HD as well but are sacked now. And i do have some low mileage stockers.

You do have a point that I'm not the man I used to be and an unnecessarily strong pull may be avoided.

After what just happened with Grumpy's new clutch plates (new, but only .131" thick, all), maybe take a quick thickness check on one or two of those friction plates? They should be no less than .135" for good grip with HD springs. The new Honda plates I have are still .141" thick.
I'm throwing a curve ball in that I'm using the APE "extra plate" clutch. It actually came with 9 friction and 2 extra steel plates. Not sure how that will stack up measurement wise. I may try to get a measurement on the whole stacks, old and new, at least for grins. Course my old stack is an aftermarket clutch to begin with, also. Trusting that APE knows their stuff. Clutch advertised as being a replacement for all CB750 models.
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Ron
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 10/14/12 w/ new pics
« Reply #2535 on: October 15, 2012, 08:23:30 AM »
That's one guy, Big Jay Mr APE, that you do NOT have to worry about knowing what he's doing  ;)
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline MCRider

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 10/14/12 w/ new pics
« Reply #2536 on: October 15, 2012, 09:02:32 AM »
That's one guy, Big Jay Mr APE, that you do NOT have to worry about knowing what he's doing  ;)
Yeah, CB750s are what he built his business on. I suspect hayabusas are his bread and butter now, but the Cb750 is where his heart is.

Having said that, there is always room for error, especially when he has to delegate things like packaging and applications to people who weren't even born when the CB750 was made. From re-reading many threads here on the subject, it seems errors of misunderstanding have been made. His "extra plate" clutch supplies 9 fiber plates which is 2 more than a K2 used, and 2 extra steel plates. They all won't fit in a K2, I think.  The fishes aren't clear and the threads are confusing.

So I'm guessing I'll have a fiber and a steel left over, as I have a K2. From the threads it seems the K3+ had a longer basket and required more discs to fill the space?

What are you using for a clutch?
« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 09:08:28 AM by MCRider »
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 10/14/12 w/ new pics
« Reply #2537 on: October 15, 2012, 10:37:45 AM »
I don't think the longer basket happened until 77?? Key word = 'think'. Anyone have a definite?

With that in mind my mix 'n match clutch is where I stopped and began house painting/updating. She fired up but I was disappointed I couldn't take her for a spin! 75F had the shorter basket that rattles. Longer basket is in the engine but when I fired it up it wasn't working as it should. I put in the pack from the 'spare' K8 engine I have. That may be the issue but I needed to get some other stuff done. I should be back to it in a while and get it sorted. May do the APE pack too (when you report on it  :).
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline toomaas

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 10/14/12 w/ new pics
« Reply #2538 on: October 17, 2012, 04:21:18 AM »
Hi all,

Thanks Terry for the link to the thread. I'm not sure what the problem with my pump was, other than all rubber hardened - the valve moves nicely and looks like a good seal in the cylinder, though I didn't pay attention to where it was positioned (open or closed) when I pulled the pump out. One concern I have is that it looks like the stopper valve should have something like an o-ring to seal it - mine has something like a lip, but no rubber - should there be?

The one thing I'm having the greatest trouble with (in the act of replacing all things rubber) is the 11x15.3 oil seal. CMSNL have replacements (thanks Harry O) but I can't get the thing out!

Besides that, the pump looks good, and no gack on the screen - though a recent motor rebuild and not much riding since might be a factor...

Tom.

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 10/14/12 w/ new pics
« Reply #2539 on: October 17, 2012, 08:55:59 AM »
Tom  &/or others playing with their 750 oil pump,

If that 11 X 15.3 seal you are referring to is for the 750 oil pump shaft then you can have your local Honda shop order one. Shipping from CMSNL is expensive and unnecessary. Even though Honda does not show it on any of the 750 diagrams as a separate orderable part you can find it on the Goldwing diagrams. 91208-MN1-771  OIL SEAL (11X15X3) (KOYO)  It previously had -300 as the middle part number which is a 750 part. Getting the old seal out is challenging WITHOUT DAMAGING THE ALUMINUM it is pressed into. It has a metal backing that bites into the aluminum. I 'coerced' mine out but did marr the aluminum which I was able to correct before fitting the new seal. One thing I perhaps should have tried would have been heat. It's difficult to find something to get behind the seal to help bring it out. I may have stupidly used a screw driver as a pry bar.  ::) Beware if you do.

When in doubt about part numbers just use the old one when ordering and it will be cross referenced to the newer superceded number. Either will work but I prefer to use the older ones I find and let Honda's system update it.



« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 09:00:47 AM by Jerry Rxman Griffin »
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 10/14/12 w/ new pics
« Reply #2540 on: October 17, 2012, 09:28:28 AM »
I ground 2 very small reliefs behind the seal and used a small pin punch to knock it out. A Dremel tool with a small ball etc will do it. Smooth the relief surfaces with some 600 paper after removing the seal. Bilnd seals can suck especially when they are buried in a small space.....fork seals are easy.
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 10/14/12 w/ new pics
« Reply #2541 on: October 17, 2012, 09:44:40 AM »
One thing I've been pleased about in this build is the number of topics we have delved into in depth. Very often when one does a GoogleSearch, they end up with a link to this thread. Thanks Jerry and Mike and everyone else along the way.

I'm running my low mileage oil pump as i received it, but i see now i should have taken my own advice and gone thru it for the rubber bits as they may have hardened from age. Its pumping at 70psi on 2 different gauges so it'll be OK at least to get running. i can always pull it later and freshen things up.

I got it reinstalled last night and got the Marshall collector/muffler back on which is getting easier but still a battle. Listening to the debates got my adrenaline up which helped!

I'll be in Hocking Hills OH in a cabin for the weekend, with the leaf peepers. See ya all later.
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline toomaas

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 10/14/12 w/ new pics
« Reply #2542 on: October 17, 2012, 01:52:59 PM »
Thanks MRieck and Jerry

I think I'll go back to the elements - a 'fire' (hairdryer...) / ice combo to see it'll budge and if that doesn't do it then onto the 'relief' strategy.

Also good to know Honda still stock the needed parts - thank again.

Tom


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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 10/14/12 w/ new pics
« Reply #2543 on: October 18, 2012, 02:01:08 AM »
Success! Thanks to all advice.

Mark P got back and suggested carefully drilling a small hole in the metal ring of the seal and using this as purchase to pry it out. I drilled 4, heated it up with a blow dryer, put it in the freezer for 20 minutes and it just popped out! Went a little deep with one of the holes, but I'm figuring the new seal will cover it ok...

Love it when small victories deliver so much satisfaction!

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 10/14/12 w/ new pics
« Reply #2544 on: October 18, 2012, 02:10:17 AM »
Now a question for MC Rider and Jerry Rxman Griffin...

What to use to get all components as clean as what you've got in the pics posted?

Offline MCRider

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 10/14/12 w/ new pics
« Reply #2545 on: October 18, 2012, 05:44:20 AM »
Now a question for MC Rider and Jerry Rxman Griffin...

What to use to get all components as clean as what you've got in the pics posted?
Mine was pretty clean when I got it from eBay. Supposedly from a 78F with low mileage. A little wipe down with solvent from the solvent tank finished it off.

Maybe a wipe down with Simple Green might do it.

If its just oil stain I wouldn't worry about it.
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 10/14/12 w/ new pics
« Reply #2546 on: October 18, 2012, 11:01:48 AM »
Now a question for MC Rider and Jerry Rxman Griffin...

What to use to get all components as clean as what you've got in the pics posted?

Mine wan't particularly stained but perhaps a little sediment. I do have a parts washer that just has kerosene and an assortment of brushes. Hopefully i don't need to use a solvent that is stronger than that but I've been known to use acetone too which is safe for aluminum. 

Good job on the seal!
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 10/14/12 w/ new pics
« Reply #2547 on: October 19, 2012, 02:10:16 AM »
If you've got access to a dishwasher, you can clean most parts up really well. I've been amazed at how clean parts come out, but you have to make sure you do it when the "woman of the house" isn't home, and you need to remove any dishes before you load it up with engine parts............  ;)
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Offline Spikeybike

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 10/14/12 w/ new pics
« Reply #2548 on: October 19, 2012, 08:48:49 AM »
+1 on the dishwasher
         i live alone , and i rent , so i pull that one off pretty often ... spray the part really good with solvent .. run the dishwasher with or without soap . the water gets like 150 degrees .. 

       i usually cycle the dishwasher empty one more time before putting dishes in it again ..  ;)

Offline MCRider

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Re: Phaedrus II: CB750 "Super Standard"-Update 10/14/12 w/ new pics
« Reply #2549 on: October 23, 2012, 07:59:01 AM »
The Pres Debate Shop Night:
The only way i can listen to those bums is in the background whilst doing something else.

I decided to swap out the clutch. After finding a layer of slime on the oil pump screen and attributing it to clutch plate breakdown, I ordered a new APE clutch w/springs. Removing the old clutch. I knew that it was a HP clutch of some sort, had worked fine for decades till i parked it. maybe a Barnett? Also, it was working fine in the short test runs I've made on the bike.

Upon removal i see that it was a +1 plate clutch, having 8 fiber and 7 metal plates. A fibre on each end ot the stack. Couldn't see any obvious breakdown of fibre. The new APE discs were thinner than the old Barnett (assumed) plates, so much so that i could fit another steel plate in. (2 extra steels wre supplied with the APE clutch.) I put it first, as the pressure plate surface showed a little more wear than the hub surface.

The new APE springs are obviously longer than the Barnett? springs.

But they are also much thinner wire. You can compress the new springs easily between your fingers down to the height of the shorter stouter spring. This was also true of the APE valve springs. They were longer but made of thinner wire. Either APE or someone else told me this is a newer convention for springs. So I will use them. Hopefully they will give a more progressive feel to the clutch. I had noticed on trial runs with the shorter springs that the friction point was at the end of the lever travel, and very narrow. This is a symptom of the stock clutch as well, so maybe the longer springs/thinner wire will help.

There have been many threads here about the dreaded breakage of the lifter plate. I have participated in these threads, and this gives me the chance to confirm my advice. Basically the pressure plate (piece with 4 posts) can only fit into the hub in 2 out of 4 positions. So, upon removal I recommend marking the top of a post and the area adjacent to it on the hub.

Right

Wrong

But one thing I noticed that hasn't been discussed (that i remember) and that is even if you have the hub/pressure plate alignment proper, once installed the PP can fall back into the cage, disengaging from its splines. Then if you go to tighten up the lifter plate it would suredly break.
A fix I know has been discussed, but I'll repeat is to run 2 bolts into the posts. You can then use them to pull the pressure plate into engagment. Then remove the bolts, install the lifter plate and thread 2 bolts down by hand till firm.

Pressure plate having dropped back into the cage.

With the center nut tight, you should be able to rattle the PP with those two bolts. If you can't then it has fallen out of engagement and is now pinned under the hub. Loosen the center nut and pull the PP back into engagement.

Anyway once everything is lined up and you're sure the splines are engaged there should be no paranoia about breaking the plate. As proof, I have tightened only 2 of the 4 bolts.

I did tighten them only one turn each at a time, but they drew up smoothly and easily. The point being the plate is plenty strong if everything is aligned properly. Then I drew up the other 2. All four bolts push the lifter plate to seat on the tops of the posts and then torque them down. I use 10ftlbs.


Final point: If you're using all the same parts it came with, this won't matter but if you're putting together a basket case or otherwise swapping parts, i discovered from one PP to the next, the depth of the threaded hole varies. And the bolts that are called for vary. So you don't want to put the long bolts in the short holes. They may bottom before the lifter plate seats. I was just messing around with 2 hubs and discovered this. So to check run the bolt you're going to use into the post to be sure it won't bottom prematurely.


Now to button it all up and get ready for a test ride.   ;D
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 08:08:58 AM by MCRider »
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."