Author Topic: I may be Canadian but............  (Read 6194 times)

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Offline edbikerii

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Re: I may be Canadian but............
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2008, 08:57:24 PM »
Oh, sorry, should have said Challenger, not Columbia!
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Offline 754

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Re: I may be Canadian but............
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2008, 09:01:27 PM »
One point I was making, was I have a higher trust level in their products than I do in other makers..

 Sure there are things that can go wrong and liquid gas explosions are horrific, but I am sure Honda's testing will be done PRIOR to sales release..
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Offline Gordon

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Re: I may be Canadian but............
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2008, 09:22:47 PM »
An o-ring failure on a high pressure liquid hydrogen line causing an explosion has nothing to do with this?  Then I guess there's no point trying to substantiate this for you, Gordon.



You seem to be conveniently forgetting about the very LARGE amount of liquid Oxygen that was also involved in that unfortunate tragedy, but then figuring in all of the facts rarely bodes well for uninformed fear-mongering. 

Offline edbikerii

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Re: I may be Canadian but............
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2008, 09:26:21 PM »
OK, then we can all be informed:  http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/shuttle/shuttlemissions/archives/sts-51L.html decide for yourselves.

An o-ring failure on a high pressure liquid hydrogen line causing an explosion has nothing to do with this?  Then I guess there's no point trying to substantiate this for you, Gordon.



You seem to be conveniently forgetting about the very LARGE amount of liquid Oxygen that was also involved in that unfortunate tragedy, but then figuring in all of the facts rarely bodes well for uninformed fear-mongering. 
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Offline Gordon

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Re: I may be Canadian but............
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2008, 09:40:34 PM »
OK, then we can all be informed:  http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/shuttle/shuttlemissions/archives/sts-51L.html decide for yourselves.
 


I'll make it easier for everyone.  Here's the excerpt from that link that pertains to what I was talking about:  (bold emphasis added by me)

"This was the beginning of the structural failure of hydrogen tank that culminated in the entire aft dome dropping away. This released massive amounts of liquid hydrogen from the tank and created a sudden forward thrust of about 2.8 million pounds, pushing the hydrogen tank upward into the intertank structure. At about the same time, the rotating right solid rocket booster impacted the intertank structure and the lower part of the liquid oxygen tank. These structures failed at 73.137 seconds as evidenced by the white vapors appearing in the intertank region.

Within milliseconds there was massive, almost explosive, burning of the hydrogen streaming from the failed tank bottom and liquid oxygen breach in the area of the intertank."


So unless you're planning on carrying a high pressure container of liquid oxygen directly adjacent to your liquid hydrogen, this comparison does not apply to you.

   

Offline edbikerii

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Re: I may be Canadian but............
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2008, 09:51:52 PM »
Well, then let's actually make it simple, shall we, Gordon?:

There's no need for liquid oxygen to ignite liquid hydrogen at sea level.  There is plenty of Oxygen in the air for that (approximately 20%).  All you need to worry about it breaching the container, or even just a high pressure line or valve attached to it.

For that matter, you don't need any oxygen for a ruptured pressure vessel containing 5000 PSI to ruin your day.

OK, then we can all be informed:  http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/shuttle/shuttlemissions/archives/sts-51L.html decide for yourselves.
 


I'll make it easier for everyone.  Here's the excerpt from that link that pertains to what I was talking about:  (bold emphasis added by me)

"This was the beginning of the structural failure of hydrogen tank that culminated in the entire aft dome dropping away. This released massive amounts of liquid hydrogen from the tank and created a sudden forward thrust of about 2.8 million pounds, pushing the hydrogen tank upward into the intertank structure. At about the same time, the rotating right solid rocket booster impacted the intertank structure and the lower part of the liquid oxygen tank. These structures failed at 73.137 seconds as evidenced by the white vapors appearing in the intertank region.

Within milliseconds there was massive, almost explosive, burning of the hydrogen streaming from the failed tank bottom and liquid oxygen breach in the area of the intertank."


So unless you're planning on carrying a high pressure container of liquid oxygen directly adjacent to your liquid hydrogen, this comparison does not apply to you.

   
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Offline dustyc

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Re: I may be Canadian but............
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2008, 10:00:41 PM »
Well then, what's the problem with using hydrides to store hydrogen at low pressure?
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Offline Gordon

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Re: I may be Canadian but............
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2008, 10:02:05 PM »
Well, then let's actually make it simple, shall we, Gordon?:

There's no need for liquid oxygen to ignite liquid hydrogen at sea level.  There is plenty of Oxygen in the air for that (approximately 20%).  All you need to worry about it breaching the container, or even just a high pressure line or valve attached to it.

For that matter, you don't need any oxygen for a ruptured pressure vessel containing 5000 PSI to ruin your day.


So then why bring up that comparison that has nothing to do with the point you're trying to make?  Liquid hydrogen does not ignite explosively unless paired with an adequate amount of liquid hydrogen.  Pour 5 gallons of gasoline and 5 gallons of liquid hydrogen on the ground, and then light them on fire.  Which one would you rather stand in the middle of? 

You provide the link which refutes the argument you're making, and then casually pass is off when it doesn't stand up even a modicum of scrutiny.   More fear-mongering, I presume...     

Offline nickjtc

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Re: I may be Canadian but............
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2008, 10:05:27 PM »
I may be Canadian but..........I'll happily catch the bus if I have to.
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Offline 754

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Re: I may be Canadian but............
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2008, 10:11:52 PM »
Would that be a Sterling bus...??............................... ???
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: I may be Canadian but............
« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2008, 10:18:56 PM »
First of all, Gordon, the NASA link I posted most certainly does not refute any of the well-documented safety issues related to hydrogen, nor does it refute any of my arguments.

And what are you trying to convey, "pouring liquid hydrogen on the ground"?  Surely you understand that hydrogen is only liquid while it is under the extreme storage pressure, so pouring it on the ground is impossible, as it would vaporize and expand violently and rapidly immediately upon the release of that pressure (5000 psi, remember?).

This is just plainly a stupid argument.  Hydrogen combustion technology is nothing new.  It is not revolutionary, and not even innovative.  It has been well known and documented for many years.  There are, however, serious safety concerns with using it.  These concerns are very real and have been well documented beyond the point of being obvious.  If these weren't concerns, then why would Honda have gone to the trouble to install a "hydrogen detection and ventilation system" in the vehicle?
http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/hydrogen-safety.aspx

So, ummmm... where do you suppose the car might ventilate that hydrogen to in the event of a leak?  Don't go parking that bugger in the garage, or you might find out the hard way.  Don't go getting into any accidents involving flames, either, or it just might "ventilate" that hydrogen right where you don't want it, baby!

Perhaps even more importantly, there are major economic concerns about producing, transporting, storing and distributing hydrogen cost effectively and safely.

If these issues didn't exist, hydrogen combusion would have been exploited many years ago.
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Offline seaweb11

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Re: I may be Canadian but............
« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2008, 10:45:17 PM »
I may be Canadian but..........I'll happily catch the bus if I have to.

What if there is no Bus ???.......Your on your own...........

I'm planting GIANT Pumpkins now,  so by Oct I can scare away all the city dwellers with my big huge scary Jack-o-Lanterns  ;D

Offline dustyc

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Re: I may be Canadian but............
« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2008, 10:49:11 PM »
Well then, what's the problem with using hydrides to store hydrogen at low pressure?

Anyone?
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Offline Gordon

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Re: I may be Canadian but............
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2008, 10:54:54 PM »
"So, ummmm..." I'm supposing you might ventilate a possible hydrogen leak in your garage with a simple, small vent in the ceiling.  Of course you'll only need that if your garage has been hermetically sealed. (something you couldn't do with propane because it's heavier than air, which nullifies one of your other main arguments). 

And in case you hadn't noticed, we're not talking about the problems of "hydrogen combustion" engines.  We're talking about hydrogen storage and it's possible issues. 

And yes,  the NASA link you provided most certainly does refute the argument you were trying to make.  It shows that liquid hydrogen in combination with liquid oxygen will ignite explosively, and nothing else. 

Anyway, I'm done banging my head against this particular brick wall, but you're more than welcome to provide any evidence regarding pressurized liquid hydrogen which caused a catastrophic explosion without the presence of liquid oxygen.   

Offline TwoTired

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Re: I may be Canadian but............
« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2008, 11:23:02 PM »
Sorry, TT, but you are not dealing solely with ignorant, uninformed, fearful readers here. 
Then why does it seem you behave as one?   ???

Oh, and yes, there are plenty of oxy/acetylene tanks that do explode every year.  Plenty of low-pressure LPG tanks too.  And there's a reason why building codes require those tiny low-pressure gas-grill tanks to be at least 25 feet from a structure.  There are also plenty of air tanks with much lower pressures that explode every year.  A few simple google searches will verify these facts.

I don't see this as support for the vilification of hydrogen as a fuel.  There are accidents with nearly every piece of technology ever created.  Are you also suggesting the elimination of ALL technology that can be a threat to human existence and wellbeing?  Where ever tools, technology, and humans intermix, there will be accidents.

I've also seen what was left of a large apartment building in the Bronx after a natural gas leak ignited.  It wasn't pretty.  The devastation was horrific.
Yes.  In the late fifties, an entire hardware store blew up in the town of Roselle, IL where I lived.  Natural gas leak.  Killed several people.  Heard the explosion [loud] from 5 miles away.  By your reasoning, we shouldn't have allowed the proliferation of natural gas use throughout the US, right?  Horrible evil stuff that.  What, exactly does this have to do with the development of Hydrogen as a possible fuel source?

Sorry, TT, you are good, but I suspect that even you are not a better engineer than the pride of pre-WWII Germany!!!  Don't you think those German engineers knew hydrogen was explosive?  Somehow, they thought they were making it safe, too.  Oh yeah, and the Space Shuttle Columbia with the giant pressurized liquid hydrogen fuel tank made some lovely fireworks too!  One simple o-ring failure blew that shuttle to bits in the blink of an eye.  Do you think the auto manufacturers of the world have better engineers than pre-WWII Germany and NASA, too?  Honda may be good, but they aren't THAT good.

"Suspect"?  For certain you can not know or have the information to judge how good or bad an engineer I am.
"simple oring failure"?  This is an echo of what the mass media simplified the explanation for the disaster.  While the o ring is simple in concept, it's implementation and speciality in the shuttle was far from simple, and certainly beyond the understanding of many individuals.  I'd also like to point out that the shuttle boosters were not intended for operation by the general public.  Further, budget constraints, development schedule shortening, as well as refurbishing turn around pressures, contributed a great deal to the accident.  Part of the Hindenburg incident was due to managerial issues overriding technical development as well.  Both these flights had accelerated risk factors, ignored by persons who were in control for various political and prestigious reasons.  To apply general safety factors for these prototype machines onto machine for the general public, I feel, is disingenuous.

Hydraulic brakes and pneumatic brakes were once vilified as "dangerous", too.  Do they still have safety issues? Yes.  Do their benefits far outweigh their detriments?  Yes.  Did it happen overnight.  No.

I have to wonder what makes your opinion qualified as credible, that todays better educated engineers and computer simulation and development technology isn't, in fact, far better than what German engineers had in Pre-WWII. Or, what NASA had 10 years ago.  Is it not possible to build and expand on a knowledge base?  To make tools that create better ones?  Is it impossible that humans can learn to use powerful tools and materials with out self destruction?  What are you asking for?  An erasure and regression of the last 100 (or more) years of technological advancement?

I'm not convinced that Hydrogen is ready for the mass market.  I do think it is worth some investment into perfecting the technology.  It doesn't have to be for everybody to be valuable.  I think it is ill-advised to put all energy dependency into crude oil alone.  Diversification of energy sources, I believe, is what should happen.  The problem I see, is that within a capitalistic society, creating a mass dependence is a good thing for those that can control it's use and dictate the profit to made from it.  Diversification threatens this centralized control of profits as well as the dependent populace.

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Offline edbikerii

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Re: I may be Canadian but............
« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2008, 11:40:11 PM »
Wow, Gordon, this latest "challenge" is like shooting fish in a barrel!

This one's from 1894:  http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9801E1DD1F39E033A25756C0A9679C94659ED7CF

Here's safety instructions for transporting compressed hydrogen from a company that produces the product: http://www.airproducts.co.uk/services/pdf/Hydrogen-compressed.pdf.  Note that it says "Heating will cause pressure rise, severe risk of bursting and subsequent explosion".
The Canadian Centre for Occupational Health and Safety (CCOHS) documents the explosion dangers of hydrogen and under separate heading the dangers of compressed gases: http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemicals/compressed/compress.html.  Try combining the two together.

here are some more: http://www.gexcon.com/index.php?src=research/hydrogen/hydrogen.html
http://www.chemaxx.com/hydrogen_explosion.htm
http://www.safety.uwa.edu.au/hazard_alerts/hydrogen_explosion
http://www.h2incidents.org/incident.asp?inc=169
http://www.h2incidents.org/incident.asp?inc=95
And for the mother lode, just use this google search:  http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=hydrogen+explosion  You'll see lots of people claiming that it is safe, and you'll also see lots of explosions.  Decide for yourself who you want to believe.  I know where I'll bet my money.

I know it is very difficult to accept that the idea you have fallen in love with may be flawed, but lets face it, hydrogen has inherent safety issues that have been well documented.  Even in specialized plants where storage tanks are monitored and inspected regularly, there is an occasional tragedy.  If hydrogen is ever to become a viable fuel for vehicles, a tremendous amount of work will have to be done to demonstrate that it can be made as safe as gasoline in some manner.  I don't believe hydrogen will ever be as safe as gasoline for common usage by ordinary citizens in vehicles that must be cost-effective to drive and maintain for several years, and 200,000 miles.  Imagine the average driver who changes his oil every, what, 10,000 miles, and doesn't even know what a spark plug is, let alone how to change it.  You gonna let the average mechanic work on 5000 PSI hydrogen systems, too?  Yeah, add on the cost of specially trained techs to the total cost of ownership.

So, in conclusion, there is a ton of available evidence documenting the explosive dangers of hydrogen gas stored in any form, pressurized, pressurized liquid, or even just at atmospheric pressure.  There is also a ton of evidence documenting the dangers of storing compressed non-flammable gases in pressure vessels.

"So, ummmm..." I'm supposing you might ventilate a possible hydrogen leak in your garage with a simple, small vent in the ceiling.  Of course you'll only need that if your garage has been hermetically sealed. (something you couldn't do with propane because it's heavier than air, which nullifies one of your other main arguments). 

And in case you hadn't noticed, we're not talking about the problems of "hydrogen combustion" engines.  We're talking about hydrogen storage and it's possible issues. 

And yes,  the NASA link you provided most certainly does refute the argument you were trying to make.  It shows that liquid hydrogen in combination with liquid oxygen will ignite explosively, and nothing else. 

Anyway, I'm done banging my head against this particular brick wall, but you're more than welcome to provide any evidence regarding pressurized liquid hydrogen which caused a catastrophic explosion without the presence of liquid oxygen.   
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Offline dustyc

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Re: I may be Canadian but............
« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2008, 11:50:43 PM »
Quote from http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/
"Once the Hydride is "charged" with Hydrogen, the Hydrogen becomes chemically bonded to the chemical. Even opening the tank, or cutting it in half will not release the Hydrogen gas. In addition, you could even fire incendiary bullets through the tank and the Hydride would only smolder like a cigarette. It is in fact, a safer storage system than your Gasoline tank is."

So, what about using hydrides?
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: I may be Canadian but............
« Reply #42 on: June 23, 2008, 12:24:42 AM »
Nice try, TT, but no.  I did not argue that we should eliminate natural gas as a fuel source.  You are trying to put words into my mouth.  I argued that hydrogen is dangerous and explosive.  I also argued that compressed gases are dangerous and can rapidly expand with explosive force.  My argument is not that we should ban hydrogen or ban compressed gases.  The points that comprise my argument are:

1.  It is not cost-effective TODAY to produce hydrogen as a replacement for hydrocarbon fuels, as large amounts of electricity are required to produce hydrogen.  Vast amounts of hydrocarbon fuel must be used to produce that electricity.  Only countries with vast amounts of hydro-electric power and/or geo-thermal resources can produce hydrogen for less than the cost of the hydrocarbon fuels required to produce hydrogen.

2.  Hydrogen gas is extremely explosive.  Hydrogen is the most highly reactive substance known to mankind.  Even in chemical plants with dedicated hydrogen storage facilities and staff there have been explosions (yes recently).

3.  Driving around cars with 5000 PSI tanks full of hydrogen is excessively dangerous as cars are often subject to unpredictable impacts and excessive heat due to fires.

4.  The service life and maintenance requirements of hydrogen storage systems are inadequate for the low-maintenance needs of the average vehicle driver.

5.  The service life and maintenance requirements of hydrogen storage systems are inadequate for the low-maintenance needs of the distribution system (hundreds of thousands of hydrogen fueling stations to replace gas stations world-wide).

6.  Storage of any highly pressurized compressible gas is inherently dangerous, and moreso when being driven around in relatively small vehicles with poorly trained drivers who are incapable of operating high-pressure gases safely.

Yes, of course we have advanced and may one day even be able to use hydrogen safely to power the common automobile.  I just don't see how we are anywhere near that point today.  Refer to the google search I posted earlier for a list of recent hydrogen explosion incidents, most of which were in chemical plants manned by trained engineers, not explosive Hondas manned by soccer moms.

Based on your last paragraph, I think we are in complete agreement.  Please remember that this argument began because someone else on this forum suggested that the American auto industry was somehow inferior because they claimed that we were a few years away from practical mass-produced hydrogen-powered cars.  I was merely pointing out the reasons why mass-production of hydrogen powered cars is not practical TODAY.

In addition, your point that the development of both the air-ships and the space shuttle were accelerated for political reasons are true with respect to hydrogen-powered automobiles as well.  Honda is desperately trying to prove something with their premature release of the hydrogen vehicle.  It is my belief that this is just as premature as the other two failed projects.

I'd also appreciate it if you could keep your arguments civil and avoid further personal attacks.  You started right out of the box with claims that anyone who didn't believe in this technology was uninformed and fearful, and basically ignorant.  That is clearly not the case.  Yes, I'm fearful of hydrogen powered vehicles driving around on public streets with 5000 PSI pressurized vessels inside.  I'm fearful for some very good reasons.  You know full well that I'm anything but ignorant.

Sorry, TT, but you are not dealing solely with ignorant, uninformed, fearful readers here. 
Then why does it seem you behave as one?   ???

Oh, and yes, there are plenty of oxy/acetylene tanks that do explode every year.  Plenty of low-pressure LPG tanks too.  And there's a reason why building codes require those tiny low-pressure gas-grill tanks to be at least 25 feet from a structure.  There are also plenty of air tanks with much lower pressures that explode every year.  A few simple google searches will verify these facts.

I don't see this as support for the vilification of hydrogen as a fuel.  There are accidents with nearly every piece of technology ever created.  Are you also suggesting the elimination of ALL technology that can be a threat to human existence and wellbeing?  Where ever tools, technology, and humans intermix, there will be accidents.

I've also seen what was left of a large apartment building in the Bronx after a natural gas leak ignited.  It wasn't pretty.  The devastation was horrific.
Yes.  In the late fifties, an entire hardware store blew up in the town of Roselle, IL where I lived.  Natural gas leak.  Killed several people.  Heard the explosion [loud] from 5 miles away.  By your reasoning, we shouldn't have allowed the proliferation of natural gas use throughout the US, right?  Horrible evil stuff that.  What, exactly does this have to do with the development of Hydrogen as a possible fuel source?

Sorry, TT, you are good, but I suspect that even you are not a better engineer than the pride of pre-WWII Germany!!!  Don't you think those German engineers knew hydrogen was explosive?  Somehow, they thought they were making it safe, too.  Oh yeah, and the Space Shuttle Columbia with the giant pressurized liquid hydrogen fuel tank made some lovely fireworks too!  One simple o-ring failure blew that shuttle to bits in the blink of an eye.  Do you think the auto manufacturers of the world have better engineers than pre-WWII Germany and NASA, too?  Honda may be good, but they aren't THAT good.

"Suspect"?  For certain you can not know or have the information to judge how good or bad an engineer I am.
"simple oring failure"?  This is an echo of what the mass media simplified the explanation for the disaster.  While the o ring is simple in concept, it's implementation and speciality in the shuttle was far from simple, and certainly beyond the understanding of many individuals.  I'd also like to point out that the shuttle boosters were not intended for operation by the general public.  Further, budget constraints, development schedule shortening, as well as refurbishing turn around pressures, contributed a great deal to the accident.  Part of the Hindenburg incident was due to managerial issues overriding technical development as well.  Both these flights had accelerated risk factors, ignored by persons who were in control for various political and prestigious reasons.  To apply general safety factors for these prototype machines onto machine for the general public, I feel, is disingenuous.

Hydraulic brakes and pneumatic brakes were once vilified as "dangerous", too.  Do they still have safety issues? Yes.  Do their benefits far outweigh their detriments?  Yes.  Did it happen overnight.  No.

I have to wonder what makes your opinion qualified as credible, that todays better educated engineers and computer simulation and development technology isn't, in fact, far better than what German engineers had in Pre-WWII. Or, what NASA had 10 years ago.  Is it not possible to build and expand on a knowledge base?  To make tools that create better ones?  Is it impossible that humans can learn to use powerful tools and materials with out self destruction?  What are you asking for?  An erasure and regression of the last 100 (or more) years of technological advancement?

I'm not convinced that Hydrogen is ready for the mass market.  I do think it is worth some investment into perfecting the technology.  It doesn't have to be for everybody to be valuable.  I think it is ill-advised to put all energy dependency into crude oil alone.  Diversification of energy sources, I believe, is what should happen.  The problem I see, is that within a capitalistic society, creating a mass dependence is a good thing for those that can control it's use and dictate the profit to made from it.  Diversification threatens this centralized control of profits as well as the dependent populace.


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Offline edbikerii

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Re: I may be Canadian but............
« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2008, 12:26:55 AM »
That sounds interesting.  I wonder why Honda isn't doing something like that, instead of a 5000 PSI storage tank.  I'd imagine that the chemical bonding must require some reverse chemical process to release the hydrogen, so it must require some energy input.

Quote from http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/
"Once the Hydride is "charged" with Hydrogen, the Hydrogen becomes chemically bonded to the chemical. Even opening the tank, or cutting it in half will not release the Hydrogen gas. In addition, you could even fire incendiary bullets through the tank and the Hydride would only smolder like a cigarette. It is in fact, a safer storage system than your Gasoline tank is."

So, what about using hydrides?

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: I may be Canadian but............
« Reply #44 on: June 23, 2008, 01:02:12 AM »
I'd also appreciate it if you could keep your arguments civil and avoid further personal attacks.  You started right out of the box with claims that anyone who didn't believe in this technology was uninformed and fearful, and basically ignorant.  ..... You know full well that I'm anything but ignorant.

I don't believe I made any such personal attacks.  I don't know, or at this point care, what you accepted as personal, or interpreted as personal.  But, it is clear that you certainly weren't devoid of several personal attacks yourself.  So, be sure to reprimand yourself, as well.
As far as what I know about you, I think I now know quite enough.

Have a nice life!

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Offline edbikerii

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Re: I may be Canadian but............
« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2008, 05:47:29 AM »
OK, TT, I'll be very clear on what I found offensive.  I took the time to present well-founded arguments and facts backed up with supporting evidence, and you went ahead and attacked the whole class of arguments that disagree with your own as "folklore", "old wives' tales" and "uninformed".  That is neither scientific nor even simply courteous, and I was offended by it on a personal level. 

Don't worry yourself about it though, TT.  I'm a big boy, and I can handle it.  Just don't expect me to sit back and not call you out on it.

The only statement I made that I can imagine you even remotely took as personally offensive was my doubt that even your skills, while good, are better than those of the collective best engineering brains of NASA, and those of pre-WWII Germany.  Frankly, I think that comparison is very flattering to you, or to any engineer, so if you found that offensive, then you need to re-frame your ego in a more realistic context.

If I made some other personal attack, then please allow me to rectify the situation.

Thank you,

Edward

I do not understand the pervasive phobia and negative hype about hydrogen as inherently dangerous.  It seems to fall under the umbrella of being fearful about the unknown and the folk lore of "old wives".

... stigma exploited by the uninformed or fearful...

But, all this is probably uninteresting, since it doesn't feed reader's fears or lust for vilifying current political powers that be.

Sorry, TT, but you are not dealing solely with ignorant, uninformed, fearful readers here. 
Then why does it seem you behave as one?   ???
SOHC4 #289
1977 CB550K - SOLD
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1986 GL1200I - SOLD
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Offline S-Dog

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Re: I may be Canadian but............
« Reply #46 on: June 23, 2008, 06:46:40 AM »
WOW... I am sooooo glad I don't have this much spare time on my hands.   8) 8) 8)

I will just say this.  I almost did not buy my house because it was heated by propane.  I am waaaay more comfortable with having oil as my primary heat source.  Taking cost aside,  my mind would be in a better place if something went wrong.  If the propane leaks in your house, BOOM!!!  If oil leaks in your house, nothing.  In fact you could stand in front of the oil leak and flick matches on it and try to light it all day long with no issues at all.  Peace of mind.  I DID end up buying the house as I do not live in fear of everything that could go wrong,  but there is something nice about NOT having a liquid or gas that can explode in your house.

I guess the same could be said about diesel cars.... They are way safer as the fuel does not readily explode.
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Offline nickjtc

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Re: I may be Canadian but............
« Reply #47 on: June 23, 2008, 06:49:19 AM »
The Argument Sketch
 
A man walks into an office.

Man: (Michael Palin) Ah. I'd like to have an argument, please.

Receptionist: Certainly sir. Have you been here before?

Man: No, this is my first time.

Receptionist: I see. Well, do you want to have the full argument, or were you thinking of taking a course?

Man: Well, what would be the cost?

Receptionist: Well, It's one pound for a five minute argument, but only eight pounds for a course of ten.

Man: Well, I think it's probably best if I start with the one and then see how it goes from there, okay?

Receptionist: Fine. I'll see who's free at the moment. Mr. DeBakey's free, but he's a little bit conciliatory. Ahh yes, Try Mr. Barnard; room 12.

Man: Thank you. (Walks down the hall. Opens door.)

Man: Is this the right room for an argument?

Other Man:(John Cleese) I've told you once.

Man: No you haven't!

Other Man: Yes I have.

Man: When?

Other Man: Just now.

Man: No you didn't!

Other Man: Yes I did!

Man: You didn't!

Other Man: I did!

Man: You didn't!

Other Man: I'm telling you, I did!

Man: You did not!

Other Man: Oh I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?

Man: Ah! (taking out his wallet and paying) Just the five minutes.

Other Man: Just the five minutes. Thank you. Anyway, I did.

Man: You most certainly did not!

Other Man: Now let's get one thing quite clear: I most definitely told you!

Man: Oh no you didn't!

Other Man: Oh yes I did!

Man: Oh no you didn't!

Other Man: Oh yes I did!

Man: Oh no you didn't!

Other Man: Oh yes I did!

Man: Oh no you didn't!

Other Man: Oh yes I did!

Man: Oh no you didn't!

Other Man: Oh yes I did!

Man: Oh no you didn't!

Other Man: Oh yes I did!

Man: No you DIDN'T!

Other Man: Oh yes I did!

Man: No you DIDN'T!

Other Man: Oh yes I did!

Man: No you DIDN'T!

Other Man: Oh yes I did!

Man: Oh look, this isn't an argument!

(pause)

Other Man: Yes it is!

Man: No it isn't!

(pause)

Man: It's just contradiction!

Other Man: No it isn't!

Man: It IS!

Other Man: It is NOT!

Man: You just contradicted me!

Other Man: No I didn't!

Man: You DID!

Other Man: No no no!

Man: You did just then!

Other Man: Nonsense!

Man: (exasperated) Oh, this is futile!!

(pause)

Other Man: No it isn't!

Man: Yes it is!

(pause)

Man: I came here for a good argument!

Other Man: AH, no you didn't, you came here for an argument!

Man: An argument isn't just contradiction.

Other Man: Well! it CAN be!

Man: No it can't!

Man: An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.

Other Man: No it isn't!

Man: Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.

Other Man: Look, if I "argue" with you, I must take up a contrary position!

Man: Yes but it isn't just saying 'no it isn't'.

Other Man: Yes it is!

Man: No it isn't!
 
Other Man: Yes it is!

Man: No it isn't!

Other Man: Yes it is!

Man: No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.

Other Man: It is NOT!

Man: It is!

Other Man: Not at all!

Man: It is!

(The Arguer hits a bell on his desk and stops.)

Other Man: Thank you, that's it.

Man: (stunned) What?

Other Man: That's it. Good morning.

Man: But I was just getting interested!

Other Man: I'm sorry, the five minutes is up.

Man: That was never five minutes just now!!

Other Man: I'm afraid it was.

Man: (leading on) No it wasn't.....

Other Man: I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to argue any more.

Man: WHAT??

Other Man: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.

Man: But that was never five minutes just now!  Oh Come on! Oh this is...this is ridiculous!

Other Man: I told you... I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you PAY!

Man: Oh all right. (takes out his wallet and pays again.) There you are.

Other Man: Thank you.

Man: (clears throat) Well...

Other Man: Well WHAT?

Man: That was never five minutes just now.

Other Man: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!
 
Man: Well I just paid!

Other Man: No you didn't!

Man: I DID!!!

Other Man: You didn't!

Man: I DID!!!

Other Man: YOU didn't!

Man: I DID!!!

Other Man: YOU didn't!
 
Man: I don't want to argue about it!

Other Man: Well I'm very sorry but you didn't pay!

Man: Ah hah! Well if I didn't pay, why are you arguing??? Ah HAAAAAAHHH! Gotcha!

Other Man: No you haven't!

Man: Yes I have! If you're arguing, I must have paid.

Other Man: Not necessarily. I could be arguing in my spare time.

Man: I've had enough of this!

Other Man: No you haven't.

Man: Oh shut up!
Nick J. Member #3247

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Offline BobbyR

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Re: I may be Canadian but............
« Reply #48 on: June 23, 2008, 09:46:57 AM »
Just to recap, we started with a Canadian who lives on an island and is contemplating becoming a survivalist. He listed all of the supplies and  resources needed to cocoon yourself. Now we have people pissing on each others legs about the explosive nature of Hydrogen. It is great fun, I am always fascinated how these threads can wander into unpredictable areas. 
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline S-Dog

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Re: I may be Canadian but............
« Reply #49 on: June 23, 2008, 09:51:11 AM »
Just to recap, we started with a Canadian who lives on an island and is contemplating becoming a survivalist. He listed all of the supplies and  resources needed to cocoon yourself. Now we have people pissing on each others legs about the explosive nature of Hydrogen. It is great fun, I am always fascinated how these threads can wander into unpredictable areas. 


HERE HERE!!  ;D ;D
1975 CB750K Bright Orange with 8300miles
1983 GL650 Silverwing Restore project with 17k miles

http://www.NEHondaGuys.info/forums