Author Topic: PISTONS (970cc? 1000cc?)  (Read 61700 times)

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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: PISTONS (970cc? 1000cc?)
« Reply #200 on: March 12, 2009, 09:41:09 PM »
AS Rob Muzzy says, when asked about camshafts by Kevin Cameron of Cycle World (& old, defunct Cycle magazine)
I don't know of many advances in cam designs over the past 35 years, but an engine does not make much power when valves are open.

We made the most torque and HP with lifts at over .407" and shortest duration posible in our CR762cc Daytona racers.

KOS

ps: you guys understand who Rob Muzzy is don't you?

Well !!!!  is anyone going to tell us who this Muzzy guy is ???

Sam :-[
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Offline scondon

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Re: PISTONS (970cc? 1000cc?)
« Reply #201 on: March 12, 2009, 10:01:04 PM »
He's the guy with the muffler named after him, Sam  ;D

I don't know anything beyond that :P

Quote from another forum: "Rob Muzzy ran Kawasaki's race team for many years, and kicked ass doing it. "

Just keepin' ya entertained until someone who knows shows up ;)
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: PISTONS (970cc? 1000cc?)
« Reply #202 on: March 12, 2009, 10:08:07 PM »
 ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

 ;) 8) :-*
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Offline voxonda

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Re: PISTONS (970cc? 1000cc?)
« Reply #203 on: March 12, 2009, 11:48:17 PM »
Do not know who Rob Muzzy is????????
He was the little 'big' man behind EddyLawson and Wayne Rainey's Kawasaki AMA superbike days.
Better sorry for failing then for the lack of trying.

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: PISTONS (970cc? 1000cc?)
« Reply #204 on: March 13, 2009, 04:19:49 AM »
« Last Edit: March 13, 2009, 04:23:36 AM by retro rocket »
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Offline MCRider

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Re: PISTONS (970cc? 1000cc?)
« Reply #205 on: March 13, 2009, 04:33:45 AM »
Hi MC, i have an engine with RC crank and rods and ported head, bigger valves, {ex drag bike from the early eighties in perfect condition}  and was looking at Jays 970 cc pistons, with 1000cc size {OD} sleeves this leaves me room to rebore if needed but its the reliability thing that has me a little concerned. I am just after heaps of torque for the street so high revs aren't really a concern. What are your thoughts?

Mick
First realize my firsthand experience is with the 888cc. A solid motor. A shop I was at dragraced some 915cc motors but that's a different world.

Reliability has to do with expectations and applications. Do you want it to last like a 736cc in a touring and occasional romp thru woods application?

With a balanced crank and rods, and a cam for torque, keeping the revs below 8k, I would bet the 970/1000cc motors, with HD cyliner studs and bottom end studs, would hang together like a 736cc. And gobs of torque.

Its usually roadrace applications, high revs, that shorten life spans, assuming everything else is built up for the extra ccs.

My only engine failure was with a 750cc (Yoshimura hi-comp slipper pistons) high rev cam, yosh head, Weber carbs, pipe, stock rods. I bent a rod, lucky it didn't break.

I was thinking its still a 750, I don't need rods.  Oops. strength first, HP second.

But to answer your question first hand, someone else must come forward. I defer to the proper engine builders on the board.

There is a member with a high mileage 1000cc kit. Can't remember his name, may be on this thread. Is using MTC alloy rods I think.  If I didn't already have my cylinders and pistons, I would be making this same decision as you. THinking that I'll never put as many miles on this motor as when I was younger and only had one bike, I'd pop for the 1000cc.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2009, 05:25:03 AM by MCRider »
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Offline NitroHunter

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Re: PISTONS (970cc? 1000cc?)
« Reply #206 on: March 13, 2009, 11:42:59 AM »
Years ago RC Eng ran adds showcasing big bore bikes with 40,000 miles on the kits. The KZ they showed ran 10.90's. I had a pal with probably 20K on his aluminum rod 1080cc Cobra motor... and THAT thing was bad a$$ed!
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Offline MRieck

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Re: PISTONS (970cc? 1000cc?)
« Reply #207 on: March 13, 2009, 12:20:40 PM »
Do not know who Rob Muzzy is????????
He was the little 'big' man behind EddyLawson and Wayne Rainey's Kawasaki AMA superbike days.
He also worked for Honda with Rainey...Sparky Edmonston was running that operation if I remember correctly. Sam...you have never heard of Scott Russell?? He beat your boy Carl Fogarty ::) back in the day when WSB was fun to watch. Muzzy is a smart guy for sure. I still think Byron Hines  has the best mechanical intuition of anybody out there building bike engines.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: PISTONS (970cc? 1000cc?)
« Reply #208 on: March 13, 2009, 05:54:31 PM »
Thanks for the input guys....very helpful... ;D  My motor already has the HD studs lightened and balanced crank, bigger valves , Titanium retainers, and i think RC gold rods {aluminum}, so i am hoping it will all stay together. One more question, what is the durability of these older performance parts? The reason i ask is because when i had the head off a while ago, while it was being reassembled, one of the HD studs broke? is there a fatigue problem with these older bits?

Mick

Mick
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Offline MRieck

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Re: PISTONS (970cc? 1000cc?)
« Reply #209 on: March 13, 2009, 08:53:34 PM »
Thanks for the input guys....very helpful... ;D  My motor already has the HD studs lightened and balanced crank, bigger valves , Titanium retainers, and i think RC gold rods {aluminum}, so i am hoping it will all stay together. One more question, what is the durability of these older performance parts? The reason i ask is because when i had the head off a while ago, while it was being reassembled, one of the HD studs broke? is there a fatigue problem with these older bits?

Mick

Mick
I've used heavy duty studs over and over just with my bikes. I did snap a heavy duty case stud building a motor. It just let go which kinda sucked.....it blows your mind when you are torquing them down and concentrating.
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: PISTONS (970cc? 1000cc?)
« Reply #210 on: March 14, 2009, 03:58:25 PM »
Thanks for the input guys....very helpful... ;D  My motor already has the HD studs lightened and balanced crank, bigger valves , Titanium retainers, and i think RC gold rods {aluminum}, so i am hoping it will all stay together. One more question, what is the durability of these older performance parts? The reason i ask is because when i had the head off a while ago, while it was being reassembled, one of the HD studs broke? is there a fatigue problem with these older bits?

Mick

Mick

Yeah Mick, fatigue problems are absolutely rampant with old perfomance parts like yours, so seriously mate, the best thing that you could do for your own piece of mind, if you're going to add some of these modern parts like the 970cc pistons etc, is send me those dangerous old RC Golden Rods so that I can dispose of them in a responsible, eco-friendly method that I'm currently developing in conjunction with the EPA for my environmentally friendy 1000cc racer project, that I'm tuning to run on "green" fuel, derived from a methane based by-product of pizza and Kentucky Bourbon................  ;D
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: PISTONS (970cc? 1000cc?)
« Reply #211 on: March 14, 2009, 05:24:14 PM »
I know its raining down there now Terry but i didn't come down with it..... :D
Good luck with the "eco fuel"... ;D

Mick
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: PISTONS (970cc? 1000cc?)
« Reply #212 on: March 14, 2009, 06:06:27 PM »
Thanks for the input guys....very helpful... ;D  My motor already has the HD studs lightened and balanced crank, bigger valves , Titanium retainers, and i think RC gold rods {aluminum}, so i am hoping it will all stay together. One more question, what is the durability of these older performance parts? The reason i ask is because when i had the head off a while ago, while it was being reassembled, one of the HD studs broke? is there a fatigue problem with these older bits?

Mick

Mick

Yeah Mick, fatigue problems are absolutely rampant with old perfomance parts like yours, so seriously mate, the best thing that you could do for your own piece of mind, if you're going to add some of these modern parts like the 970cc pistons etc, is send me those dangerous old RC Golden Rods so that I can dispose of them in a responsible, eco-friendly method that I'm currently developing in conjunction with the EPA for my environmentally friendy 1000cc racer project, that I'm tuning to run on "green" fuel, derived from a methane based by-product of pizza and Kentucky Bourbon................  ;D

Terry,

In addition to good ole Kentucky bourbon Makers Mark are you using that good ole Kentucky pizza, Papa John's? That #$%* is gonna create some really high octane gas  ;D  Only thing thats gonna be fatigued is yer bung hole.

BACK TO PISTONS. Perhaps Jay will join the discussion (hint hint)
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Offline MRieck

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Re: PISTONS (970cc? 1000cc?)
« Reply #213 on: March 14, 2009, 09:00:30 PM »
Jay started this.....he should finish it. It's not like he will not be covered even in these economic times......and that's a promise.
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Offline kos

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Re: PISTONS (970cc? 1000cc?)
« Reply #214 on: March 16, 2009, 02:45:04 PM »
RXman,


Answer to the question, "what kind of RWHP did you get with those 762cc CR750 racers".  We started at 91-91 RWHP and moved up to 95 RWHP, but that was the point we we started to break things. These engines all used K1 type heads. (34mm intake) (28mm EX)  We then moved into the F2 head thing and that made massive amounts of HP, but broke everything. Ti valves, special seats, our own special cams from Mega Cycle and Web Cam were tried. When my friend Adam Popp, who was our rider the entire time, decided that racing was a job again went home for good...I took on World Champion Gary Nixon who at 63 years young.... did not want any engine that would blow up and throw him on the ground, so we went back to 90 RWHP and he garnered a bunch of second place finishes at Daytona. We were racing against a guy with unlimited amounts of cash and each of his HD's cost 50K each. And he had a current AMA racer named Jay Sringsteen riding it!

We also used very special ELF fuel and synthetic oil to do make this kind of power.

KOS
220...221, whatever it takes.

Offline MRieck

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Re: PISTONS (970cc? 1000cc?)
« Reply #215 on: March 17, 2009, 09:42:05 AM »
RXman,


Answer to the question, "what kind of RWHP did you get with those 762cc CR750 racers".  We started at 91-91 RWHP and moved up to 95 RWHP, but that was the point we we started to break things. These engines all used K1 type heads. (34mm intake) (28mm EX)  We then moved into the F2 head thing and that made massive amounts of HP, but broke everything. Ti valves, special seats, our own special cams from Mega Cycle and Web Cam were tried. When my friend Adam Popp, who was our rider the entire time, decided that racing was a job again went home for good...I took on World Champion Gary Nixon who at 63 years young.... did not want any engine that would blow up and throw him on the ground, so we went back to 90 RWHP and he garnered a bunch of second place finishes at Daytona. We were racing against a guy with unlimited amounts of cash and each of his HD's cost 50K each. And he had a current AMA racer named Jay Sringsteen riding it!

We also used very special ELF fuel and synthetic oil to do make this kind of power.

KOS
Were you using 5mm Ti valves when you switched to the F2? I know you were using copper beryllium seats.
  Now....about those pistons Jay................................................................... ::)
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Offline kos

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Re: PISTONS (970cc? 1000cc?)
« Reply #216 on: March 19, 2009, 08:13:55 AM »
When we went into F2 development, we used 5mm stem valves and seats were made from Cu Al10 Ni5 Fe3 Mn1 (KPMI C630 Nickel Aluminum Bronze seat inserts) I would have rather used 5.5 mm stems, as I had those all designed here at M3 but KPMI had already developed their 5mm stuff and I did not want to re-invent the wheel. With a rocker arm engine, you can get some extra side loading on those thin stemmed valves, but I have not noticed a lot of stem wear and/or valve guide gauling along the way.

Bigger engines don't need  High rev capability anyway, so why spend all the money on "eye candy" that no one can see. Get a set of CR Special Keihin carbs and a good pipe and keep shift points down there...and have good reliable fun!

KOS

220...221, whatever it takes.

Offline Big Jay

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Re: PISTONS (970cc? 1000cc?)
« Reply #217 on: March 19, 2009, 10:46:30 PM »
I will have final pricing posted next week, then it will be deposits like with the rods. Stay tuned.

Jay

Offline MRieck

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Re: PISTONS (970cc? 1000cc?)
« Reply #218 on: March 20, 2009, 04:13:07 AM »
I will have final pricing posted next week, then it will be deposits like with the rods. Stay tuned.

Jay
Great. Thanks.
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: PISTONS (970cc? 1000cc?)
« Reply #219 on: March 20, 2009, 03:09:56 PM »
Jay,

VERY good.

I need to have cylinders powder coated. Before or after you replace liners? After I'd assume but will the finish hold up to your machines?

Jerry
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Offline 78 k550

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Re: PISTONS (970cc? 1000cc?)
« Reply #220 on: March 31, 2009, 06:29:08 PM »
I just took 2 pistons out of my spare 79 GL1000. I'm getting measurements for terry tomorrow.

Paul
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: PISTONS (970cc? 1000cc?)
« Reply #221 on: April 03, 2009, 01:15:20 AM »
Quote
I will have final pricing posted next week

Just curious, how long is a US week ?..... ;D

Mick
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline Big Jay

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Re: PISTONS (970cc? 1000cc?)
« Reply #222 on: April 16, 2009, 11:17:38 PM »
We have been very busy, but here it is.  We are very excited about this. Now that we have rods that will take anything we can put to them, we are bringing back the big Honda motor.

#HK1000
1000cc forged piston kit with pins, rings, sleeves and gaskets.

These will be street compression with the wide valve pockets so any piston fits any hole. No 1 & 3 or 2 & 4, etc.

The total kit price is $899.00  We will start production as soon as we have four deposits. Call our order desk at 661-256-7309  and give your deposit.

Machine work... We will install the kit in your block, finished ready to install for $230.00   Boring top case ( studs removed) is $79.00.

At this poing we are only doing the 1000cc ( 71 mm ) kits.

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: PISTONS (970cc? 1000cc?)
« Reply #223 on: April 17, 2009, 02:12:21 AM »
Are you going to still do the 970cc pistons.?

Mick
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline MRieck

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Re: PISTONS (970cc? 1000cc?)
« Reply #224 on: April 17, 2009, 04:59:08 AM »
We have been very busy, but here it is.  We are very excited about this. Now that we have rods that will take anything we can put to them, we are bringing back the big Honda motor.

#HK1000
1000cc forged piston kit with pins, rings, sleeves and gaskets.

These will be street compression with the wide valve pockets so any piston fits any hole. No 1 & 3 or 2 & 4, etc.

The total kit price is $899.00  We will start production as soon as we have four deposits. Call our order desk at 661-256-7309  and give your deposit.

Machine work... We will install the kit in your block, finished ready to install for $230.00   Boring top case ( studs removed) is $79.00.

At this poing we are only doing the 1000cc ( 71 mm ) kits.
That is a good price IMO.
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"