Topic: "Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance" by R L Pirsig

[Markcb750]

His son was afraid and ashamed of him, he was in a loony bin with all the stigma that carries.

He was doing his best to tell his son that he was not any crazier then a lot of people, and that he had some life lessons he could pass on to the son to help with his own growth.


A tough job breaking through a young persons hurt. As I now remember the story he at least was trying.  Many fathers do not.

[MCRider]

His son was afraid and ashamed of him, he was in a loony bin with all the stigma that carries.

He was doing his best to tell his son that he was not any crazier then a lot of people, and that he had some life lessons he could pass on to the son to help with his own growth.


A tough job breaking through a young persons hurt. As I now remember the story he at least was trying.  Many fathers do not.

That's more like it, I think. The book was 17 days. can one judge a man on 17 days? Throughout the book, there were subtle and direct apologies to Chris. Nevertheless, he did what he did and we are all allowed our opinions.

It is to provoke thought. What led up to the action of those 17 days?  What was likely to come after the 17 days. Later in life Chris attended the Zen Center in San Francisco. Does one do something like that under duress, or from a positive influence. Certainly many of us have had children who could have benefited from a Zen influence.

Heck, how many of us had a father who would take us on a 17 day (plus return trip) motorcycle trip when we were 12 years old? I'll be posting pictures of Chris in another thread. Very smiley.

[Frankenkit]

I'm just saying he was quite sharp with him a lot of the time, and didnt' need to be.  He should have decided before the trip that if it were to be some kind of Chautauqua or spiritual journey, Chris should probably have stayed behind so he could find balance between himself and Phaedrus on his own time, without too much interruption.  When you take kids with you on trips and such, they pretty naturally assume it's kind of all about them.  It could've been a great trip for them to really connect, but Pirsig just wasn't 'there' mentally. 

Though I'm not thrilled with his parenting shortcomings (and no you can't judge on 17 days, but you can see a general sort of distance between the two alluded to) I can understand very well where Pirsig is coming from.  I don't think I'd be the best mom because, like Pirsig, I get sucked into my head an awful lot.  MickeyX puts up with a lot. 

[Frankenkit]

fwiw, I did end up getting the owner's manual for my bike (same year and the 'custom' too) and I hope someday I can find the original tool kit etc... I do like his frame of mind when it comes to basic maintenance. 

[Duke McDukiedook]

Yeah, it seemed like he was kind of a jerk to his son but I think he was also trying to prepare him for manhood and toughen him up I think (tough love). It's kinda hard to pass judgement on another person because you don't know their situation and their past (you get to a little with Pirsig, what a past! Does the bug house or any other facility make people in that kind of condition better? Dunno  )  I guess from the female perspective it would look like bad fathering, I can't say, don't have kids yet, guess I'll have to raise a boy to find out.
The book definitely shifted my thinkings of maintenance with my bicycle, motorcycle and cars. Sometimes I find myself looking forward to the ritual of going through the motions of truing a wheel or changing out a brake caliper. That all gets thrown out the window when I have a seized caliper and it's 15 degrees Fahrenheit outside. 
 

[seven]

I can't argue with the theory that Pirsig was a nutbag and mean to his son.

But the man made some startling observations that, as can be seen here, do resonate with folks. Now I don't think that's because they are nutters themselves, and I don't think I am one, but my wife would tend to disagree. And sure none of his theories may be new in a historical sense but even the music of the Beatles and Elvis are new to a two year old. That's why they will keep on having hit records.

Cheers

[MCRider]

I can't argue with the theory that Pirsig was a nutbag and mean to his son.

But the man made some startling observations that, as can be seen here, do resonate with folks. Now I don't think that's because they are nutters themselves, and I don't think I am one, but my wife would tend to disagree. And sure none of his theories may be new in a historical sense but even the music of the Beatles and Elvis are new to a two year old. That's why they will keep on having hit records.

Cheers

yup.

[fastbroshi]

Over my life, I've taken some interest in a couple of people I know, who are suffering from various psychoses, and something that I discovered a long time ago, (and is probably well known in medical circles) was that people with psyche problems, are often attracted to other people with psyche problems.

What seems like crap to "normal" people, can seem like the voice of God whispering the meaning of life into the ears of those with a screw or two loose. You've only got to look at Jonestown, or the Nazi's, the Manson family, or even The Church of Scientology to see that this is true.

When I was on vacation in Europe in 1974 I remember my Dad talking to an old German couple on a train to Munich, and the old guy told us about how he went to one of Hitler's rallies in Nuremberg, and couldn't believe what crap was coming out of Adolf's mouth, yet so many of Hitlers loyal followers were lapping up every word.

Ironically, the bloke who recommended ZAMM to me 29 years ago, a schoolteacher of over 30 years, recently had a nervous breakdown followed by a heart attack, when told that he'd have to return to school or be fired, after spending almost a year off work on "Stress Leave". Like some of the folk who so enjoy "Catcher in the Rye", he had read, and re-read ZAMM many times, and often quotes from it, like Jesus freaks quote from the bible.

So my personal belief is that not enjoying Pirsig's book isn't necessarily a sign of some lower form of intellect as some would infer, but rather, the sign of a healthy brain dismissing what it sees as self indulgent rambling and flawed analysis, with very little educational, or entertainment value. Cheers, Terry.

  Well said Terry.  I haven't read the book, but I can see where you're coming from.  Maybe it's not that there are people w/ unhealthy brains lapping it up, as you put it, but rather they're healthy but they become polarized by how someone could be so charismatic and different.  I think it's why people tend to gravitate towards those celebrities that aren't particularly good looking and sometimes not even funny, ie Andy Warhol (okay they probably wanted smack), Hitler, etc. 
  Take Hitler.  Germany's economy wasn't great, and depending on who you talk to, they were still feeling the aftereffects of the first World War.  The Germans were kinda starved spiritually and down on themselves I guess, and here comes Hitler getting everyone all riled up and pumped.  Morale was low and Hitler I think combated this by telling them they were better, "than who you ask?  Um, er, that Jew over there!!  Come to speak of it, all of 'em!"  Didn't he have some Jewish blood himself?  Too bad he didn't get them excited about just improving things and living better, and not hate.  The amount of hard work and money that went into killing is a shame . 
  So yeah, maybe folks just follow others cause they think might be just as crazy as they themselves are. 

[74cb750]

When my son was 14 we went on a week long trip to deliver a motorcycle to a buyer in North Carolina, from Vermont. I used the profit from the sale of the CB650 and we went where ever he pointed on the map. Had a great time and I believe because it was just the 2 of us with no radio in the van, we learned a lot about each other and life.

Isn't this what Persig was trying to do?
peace,
michel

[BIKE]

I can't argue with the theory that Pirsig was a nutbag and mean to his son.

But the man made some startling observations that, as can be seen here, do resonate with folks. Now I don't think that's because they are nutters themselves, and I don't think I am one, but my wife would tend to disagree. And sure none of his theories may be new in a historical sense but even the music of the Beatles and Elvis are new to a two year old. That's why they will keep on having hit records.

Cheers

I agree with you here.  I don't disagree that some of what he had to say range true and honest.  I just guess his approach with other's (family and friends) may have soured the book for me. 

[Ichiban 4]

Hi folks.

Well..I've been mainly just reading the threads here for a while..not much to say.  But since some of my favorite posters are corresponding here..I felt like chiming in a little.

Firstly..I'd like to relate that I always heard about Zen And the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance..since it first came out in the early 70's (?) I know that it was really popular with many of the boomers as well as the post-hippies that I hung with for a while while living in SF and Berkeley (trying to get things figured out after serving in Navy/Nam).  I also actually started getting into Zen meditation myself through the SF Zen Center..but moved to another "Zendo" (Mount Baldy Zen Center) in So. California.

Since following this thread..I actually downloaded ZAMM from the link and read it (albeit very quickly).  A few things crossed my mind in reading through ZAMM.  Firstly..it seems to be a fairly good narrative..that stimulates one to think about things..especially considering the times and mind-set of the period. However..I wouldn't consider it particularly "profound" compared to what some of the other actual Zen teachers were saying then or now. [BTW: the founder of SF Zen Center Suzuki, Roshi (died in 1971)..has a book still in print titled "Zen Mind: Beginners Mind"]  I would highly recommend reading ZMBM to anyone really interested in knowing more about actual Zen.

Which gets me to my other impressions about ZAMM..being that I felt the term "Zen" in his title..although a popular term to use in the late 60's thru 70's..actually had little to do with Zen practice or philosophy. In actuality.."Zen" does not have much of a philosophy per se..but rather is focused mainly on moment to moment experience..which in turn is indescribable directly in words.  The primary reality or "truth" if you will..of Zen is derived primarily from the practice of sitting mediation. I could go on more here about so called "Zen philosophy" as it were (have been an ordained Zen lay-monk for over 30 years)..but don't want to bother others with that particularly.

I did see where Mr. Pirsig's analogies to Greek figures and mythology were illustrative of the points he was trying to communicate to his son..and the reader (certainly better in articulation than I would be capable of).  However..I would not mistake the Greek analogies with the true meaning or purpose of Zen..from my own experience.

Bottom line for me with ZAMM..was that it reflects a somewhat period dependent view of society..and in a spiritually inquisitive America of the early to mid 1970's [How fitting for those of us still fascinated by 1970's Japanese Bikes]. Present day realities seem to me..certainly the development of Zen in America/the West..considerably more "processed" in understanding of what the term means (for example: in the mid 70's there were perhaps a few thousand people actually practicing Zen in the West.  Nowadays..the numbers are probably in the hundreds of thousands..if not millions of Westerners that practice Zen). 

Hope I didn't "p--s in anyone's Wheaties" here (as one of my friends cautions me about sometimes).  Just wanted to relate what a contemporary of Pirsig's..having experienced not only the evolution of bikes and the geographical areas he rode through..but the actual development of Zen since then..saw in Zen And the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.

Gassho (Zen term: means hands together-bowing to you)..

Ichi / Al

[Duke McDukiedook]

Zen Mind: Beginners Mind, I'll have to pick that one up. Anyone here read Zen in the art of Archery (probably everyone that read ZAMM I assume)? Although that one is about kyudo I found it pretty interesting. The best part was when after learning for weeks upon weeks of addressing the bow and learning to properly draw the bow back but not being able to fire and the students getting frustrated. The master pulls them aside and blindfolds himself in the shooting area. Shoots one bullseye, then puts another right in the back of the other arrow. Man, if I could know that kind of concentration, I would be dangerous. 
 

[MCRider]

Ichiban: Appreciate your comments. You may know this already, but just for clarity: Although Pirsig was a student of Zen, he discloses in the Introduction "it should in no way be associated with that great body of factual information relating to orthodox Zen Buddhist practice. It's not very factual on motorcycles, either."

Whether he says this tongue in cheek, or just to dodge criticism, he did say it at the onset.


DukieDook: haven't read it. Found out later that the ZAMM title was a play on the Zen/Archery book. I think it was encouraged by Pirsig's publisher.

[pdxPope]

Bottom line for me with ZAMM..was that it reflects a somewhat period dependent view of society..and in a spiritually inquisitive America of the early to mid 1970's [How fitting for those of us still fascinated by 1970's Japanese Bikes]. Present day realities seem to me..certainly the development of Zen in America/the West..considerably more "processed" in understanding of what the term means (for example: in the mid 70's there were perhaps a few thousand people actually practicing Zen in the West.  Nowadays..the numbers are probably in the hundreds of thousands..if not millions of Westerners that practice Zen). 

Maybe that's why the book didn't seem terribly profound to me. As the product of overly-educated, Hippie parents, I was raised with all sorts of philosophies and ideas of the world.
A geopolitical spiritual mishmash of concepts, if you will. I suppose it would have been old hat because I was taught to look at the world with a critical eye.

The master pulls them aside and blindfolds himself in the shooting area. Shoots one bullseye, then puts another right in the back of the other arrow. Man, if I could know that kind of concentration, I would be dangerous. 

What an odd coincidence, that's how I masturbate........       


-JP

[gar]

Over a 20 year span, it took me about 5 tries to finish the book...but now I find parts of it fascinating and read it (or much of it) every summer.   I think the first time I picked up the book I was in high school, and expected a motorcycling narrative...which much of the book is not.  So subsequent reads was to try to find out how it finished. 
BTW I read the book "Zen and Now: On the Trail of Robert Pirsig and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" that was published Sept 08 and it was a fascinating story of a guy who --30 some years later -- retraced the route on a Suzuki thumper, visiting with people who encountered Pirsig, the places he may have stayed at, and so forth.  I really enjoyed the book!

[j squared]

I didn't read this thread (for fear of spoiling the book), but I am resurrecting it after 18 months to say I am on page 70 or so and this is pretty awesome so far.  I am just now getting into the philosophical journey I have heard so much about, but up until this point I can relate to a lot of things the writer has mentioned so far.  Specifically, how his riding buddy's aversion to technology and learning about the mechanics of his machine has affected his ability to enjoy the ride.  I have drawn parallels to other things in life that I NEVER would have dreamed of until this book.

So, good read so far.  I am not one for philosophy really so I guess I will have to see how the rest fairs for my taste. 

[KeithTurk]

One of my good friends said of the book... " I'd like to have seen less Zen and More Motorcycle Maintenance"...

I took the book for what it is and simply enjoyed it.... 

K

[kirkn]

I picked it up at my office's book-swap shelf quite on a fluke about two weeks ago and just finished it up.

I hated it. 

The only good thing is it became easy to "skim" the tedious Phaedrus crap and Quality crap and Chautauqua crap and read the motorcycle travel story bits, because there was absolutely ZERO continuity.  It was as if someone took two separate and distinct decks of cards and shuffled 'em together.  A light skimming was enough to differentiate between the two 'decks'. 

And even the travel bits were unpleasant because he was so harsh with his TWELVE YEAR OLD son.  Toughen him UP??  Horse****.  And, even the other couple on the BMW was portrayed as an unpleasant couple.  Willfully ignorant of the whole motorcycle thing.  If they're so 'out of sync' with the bike, it just seems so improbable that they ever would have gotten into it in the first place...

Oh well.  Everyone's a critic... 

[sangyo soichiro]

I am just now finishing this book for the second time.  The last time was about 12 years ago.

I liked it the first time, but I'm getting so much more out of it the second time through.  I bought this copy from a thrift store.  The previous owner has made comments throughout the book, and even a critique of it in the front cover - makes it kind of fun reading what he/she had to say and what they thought was comment-worthy.

One of this person's comments, which I've also seen in this thread, was that Pirsig didn't say anything that he/she didn't already know.  I'm not sure why this should be a hang-up; as Pirsig mentions at one point in the book, 'people go to church not to gain any new understanding, but to rethink what is already familiar,' or something to that effect.  Things always seem crystal clear after someone else has already laid them out for you.  But I think it's nice to have have them refreshed, even if you already knew them.

I think it's just an all around neat book.  A man who had much of his memories jumbled by electroshock therapy, in search of himself through his former writings and memory fragments, on a cross country trip on a motorcycle, dissecting his thoughts and relating them to motorcycle maintenance.  His idea of Quality is interesting to me also.

[Spanner 1]

Totally tried to read that book, totally lost interest fifty pages in......... did nothing to catch my imagination ( it's purpose, right ? )...all I read was a load of boring drivel by a conceited 'grinder' of a man with zero sense of humor.... what a lousy outlook on life... and the unfortunate reader is supposed to think he is great and has all kinds of interesting insights..... drivel and nonsense and soooo
late 60's 'know it all ' crap..... have a nice day 

[Markcb750]

Spanner

More beer will help.  It's a great book about the relationship between those who can vs those who can't.  The practical vs the romantic. 

You going to Barber?

[Radam]

I'm about half way through the book now. I haven't been taking much time to read lately. It's interesting. I like the stuff about the motorcycles and the trip a lot better than the rest. I have a few friends who have the same approach to motorcycle maintenance as John. I try to show them, but they don't care. Anyway, I can't really praise or knock the book until I finish. It did help me see some things that are good to take with on a long trip.

I've been getting my airhead up to par for the Barber trip!

[MCRider]

It's an autobiography. It's "purpose"? How can we know the author's purpose? Some writer's, often the really good ones, don't write to an audiences expectations. They write the truth, regardless of the audience. He knows his life was sad and full of demons. That's the point. It's the same for many others. hence its popularity.

It's not fiction, how can he set out to catch one's attention? It is what it is. Don't like the story? That's OK.

Placing unfounded expectations, then complaining because they aren't fulfilled is a sure way to be disappointed in life.

[Spanner 1]

Obviously touched a nerve about your favorite book MC...... please don't make assumptions about someone because they disagree with what you 'got out of ' the book......... a lot of time and energy defending it in this thread..... that's great  and shows it was essential reading for you, but not for everyone.

[donny]

the link is dead.  anyone have a good one?,  to copy to the literati.

thanks,