Author Topic: Flying J CB550 Cafe Racer Magazine.  (Read 242776 times)

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: FFJMOORE CB550 Atomic #13
« Reply #550 on: December 22, 2011, 03:12:31 PM »
It depends on the ceramic material chosen, as they are NOT all the same.  "Ceramic" defines a wide range of subtypes. There is cookware which transfers heat well and then there is the ceramic which the space shuttle tiles were made of, and are stellar at heat insulation.  These "ceramics" have opposite thermal properties.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceramic
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ceramics-properties-d_1227.html

If the ceramic coating on an exhaust was to retain heat within it (as would wrapping pipes), then that would be a very bad thing to do for air cooling fins which are there to transfer heat into the air.  Further, brake pads are NOT ceramic, but a composite that includes ceramic for its stability at high temperature, primarily to circumvent warping.

In general adding thickness to a coating upon the cooling fins is going to make the heat transfer function worse.  Even if the coating's heat transmissive properties are better than that of the fin material, the heat energy still has a longer distance to travel before contacting air, and this generally works to delay the cooling effect.

Now, if you were going to operate a cooling fin motor in the arctic, perhaps you will want to delay the shedding of heat...and maybe even ad air deflectors, to help keep the engine warm.

Cheers,
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: FFJMOORE CB550 Atomic #13
« Reply #551 on: December 22, 2011, 03:27:42 PM »
Ceramic coatings are a thermal barrier, there for retaining heat inside the coated parts, great on exhaust systems but not very good on engines as it retains heat.

Here's a quote from a guy that owns a coating business in Sweden called "weird performance and coatings..

Quote
I wouldn't coat a engine block with any thermal barrier coating, this keeps the heat in the engine and give it no chance to cool off by surrounding air. Caswell sells Techline, and Techline has a coating called TLTD, this coating is a thermal dispersant coating, thus helping the metal to shed off the temp. We use it on block, heads, intercoolers, radiators and brake parts etc. that needs to be cooled off as much as possible. TLTD is matte black, and looks real nice on parts, and more important, it does the job right.

Here's a little on the  TLTD coating.. In their application list it recommends it for engine blocks..

http://www.techlinecoatings.com/articles/Coating_The_Oil_Pan_Article.htm


TLTD THERMAL DISPERSANT
      

    Rapidly disperses heat away from a coated component
    More evenly distributes heat over a coated surface
    Aids in cooling heat sensitive parts
    Excellent for intake manifolds, brake components, oil pans etc…
    Very good chemical and corrosion resistance
    Black in color
    Cosmetically appealing
    Requires baking. Cures at 300f minimum. Must be oven baked


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Offline Flying J

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Re: FFJMOORE CB550 Atomic #13
« Reply #552 on: December 22, 2011, 03:50:08 PM »
Neat, so what color should i paint the motor? I have "Cast Coat Aluminum" or "Aluminum".

Offline TwoTired

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Re: FFJMOORE CB550 Atomic #13
« Reply #553 on: December 22, 2011, 04:46:43 PM »
I'd be leery of the tech line coating claims.  I notice they offer no actual test reports/examples.  They make claims which are not backed by objective test reports anyone can duplicate if desired.  Perhaps they believe that such tests won't help them sell product?

When I was still doing thermal engineering, we used a resistance model.  Each material in the path between heat source and sink, has an equivalent resistance to transfer heat.

In this case the engine housing is accepting heat from the combustion area (as well as any friction devices and compression heating of the oil itself).
The heat is conducted through the metal case to the outer surface where air receives/collects the heat.  Replacing the air with a source of cooler air sustains the cooling of the source.

If the case has a thermal transfer resistance (it does), any additional resistance, as a path way component, however small, can only add to the resistance path, which diminishes the cooling effect.  I don't care what a marketing man says happens, physics is not something that can be talked into changing its behavior.

There is no doubt that the engine needs a coating to separate/protect the alloy from the corrosive effects of weather and atmospheric contaminants.  But, if you are interested in shedding heat from the engine, minimize the thickness and thermal conductivity contribution of any coating material that is applied.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Flying J

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Re: FFJMOORE CB550 Atomic #13
« Reply #554 on: December 22, 2011, 05:21:02 PM »
So Lloyd, what would you recommend using as a coating? In your opinion will the spray can stuff work fine?

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: FFJMOORE CB550 Atomic #13
« Reply #555 on: December 22, 2011, 07:00:49 PM »
Quote
I'd be leery of the tech line coating claims. I notice they offer no actual test reports/examples. 

Lloyd, this is a standard response to anything you don't like, don't know about or disagree with.  It is  known that different materials dissipate heat differently so whilst i understand what you are saying, it is not necessarily right and you also have no proof to back up your claims.,  I don't want to start a #$%* session here but thermal dispersant's have been around for over 60 years and are used in the Space industry, motor racing and lots of industrial applications to help remove heat. Try Google, there's absolutely piles of information available on the subject, and if you really want proof, email the manufacturers instead of slamming everything without any proof to the contrary.

Quote
If the case has a thermal transfer resistance (it does), any additional resistance, as a path way component, however small, can only add to the resistance path, which diminishes the cooling effect.

If that were always the case, heat sinks would not work.


Quote
What are thermal coatings and what do they do? Thermal coatings come in two basic categories; thermal
dispersant's to help get rid of heat and thermal barriers to block heat. Thermal dispersant's help the coated part
shed heat faster than that part normally would dispense with were it bare or un-coated. Thermal dispersant's are
generally exterior coatings and therefore primarily work via convection, but conduction is also involved.

Here's a good little test done by a car enthusiest, read both pages.... Up too 26degree difference in temps...

http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/engine-modifications/170456-thermal-dispersant-testing.html

FFJ, look into Thermal dispersant's and read for yourself mate, they are available and have been used for a very long time. I have been looking into these for my own application and i'm not into snake oil products. If they are good enough for NASA then they are good enough for me, the only problem i see is that they only come in black, which suits me fine .. ;)

I'm outa here....
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 07:04:24 PM by Retro Rocket »
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Offline Flying J

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Re: FFJMOORE CB550 Atomic #13
« Reply #556 on: December 22, 2011, 07:06:19 PM »
Im not building a rocket ship. I just wanted to paint my motor. Will high temp engine paint work?   ???    :)

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: FFJMOORE CB550 Atomic #13
« Reply #557 on: December 22, 2011, 07:20:23 PM »
Im not building a rocket ship. I just wanted to paint my motor. Will high temp engine paint work?   ???    :)

Yes, so will high temp powder coating and a number of other coatings...  Por15 has a good engine paint, but again i think its only in black. {correction, grey and silver as well} VHT have high temp engine paints as well.

Por 15 products...

http://www.ppcco.com.au//paints.htm
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 07:45:04 PM by Retro Rocket »
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Offline bwaller

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Re: FFJMOORE CB550 Atomic #13
« Reply #558 on: December 22, 2011, 07:36:29 PM »
Here's my experience, take it or leave it.  ;D

1) I bead blast first. It leaves a rougher surface and cleans any of the original coating. Was prepared to get the primer on within 1/2 a day.
2) Wash in hot water and blow clean.
3) Heat parts slightly with a heat gun.
4) Apply self etching primer. (I was told the primer sticks to aluminum best, and the finish coat sticks better to the primer) Then cured in an oven.
5) Again warmed the parts to be sprayed. I used VHT SP-127 Universal Aluminum on a CB550 and then cured it in an oven again.  That was four years ago and is still holding well to gas/oil. It is paint however and can be scraped off. I find it has darkened slightly from the original aluminum colour. I don't mind it at all.

I used Duplicolor DE1615 Aluminum (after the same above steps) on two other engines, one an XL175. It has held up well too and the colour didn't change,

I believe preparation is the key......good luck.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 07:38:57 PM by bwaller »

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: FFJMOORE CB550 Atomic #13
« Reply #559 on: December 22, 2011, 07:43:58 PM »
Here's my experience, take it or leave it.  ;D

1) I bead blast first. It leaves a rougher surface and cleans any of the original coating. Was prepared to get the primer on within 1/2 a day.
2) Wash in hot water and blow clean.
3) Heat parts slightly with a heat gun.
4) Apply self etching primer. (I was told the primer sticks to aluminum best, and the finish coat sticks better to the primer) Then cured in an oven.
5) Again warmed the parts to be sprayed. I used VHT SP-127 Universal Aluminum on a CB550 and then cured it in an oven again.  That was four years ago and is still holding well to gas/oil. It is paint however and can be scraped off. I find it has darkened slightly from the original aluminum colour. I don't mind it at all.

I used Duplicolor DE1615 Aluminum (after the same above steps) on two other engines, one an XL175. It has held up well too and the colour didn't change,

I believe preparation is the key......good luck.

I was going to mention duplicolor but have also read reports that it failed with exposure to fuel leaks...
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Offline Flying J

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Re: FFJMOORE CB550 Atomic #13
« Reply #560 on: December 22, 2011, 07:53:08 PM »
Good to hear. I used it on my cl125 and it has worked pretty good and i did not strip it. So i think since I blasted these and will bake them when they are painted I should be ok. I hope. I really just need to get this bike project moving. I have 2 other bikes in my garage that im working on. CB175 and a CT200. I keep getting distracted by the smaller less complicated projects.

Offline Tintop

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Re: FFJMOORE CB550 Atomic #13
« Reply #561 on: December 22, 2011, 08:11:35 PM »
+1 bw, it's all in the prep.  As mentioned by RR, the best product(s) seem to be only available in black.  Also VHT is owned by Duplicolour, although I'm not sure if both high temp engines paints are the same formulation.

That said, Honda painted all the CB engines, and didn't fit coolers, so for a basic street application heat dissipation is a none issue.  If the engine does run hot because of modification (cooler needed), a thermal bypass must be used so in warms up properly.  my .02
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Re: FFJMOORE CB550 Atomic #13
« Reply #562 on: December 22, 2011, 09:11:09 PM »
Great discussion on paint.

So - would I be correct in suggesting that rattle can spray painting an engine will affect engine heat dissapation minimally and is fine for a street bike?

There are probably other things we do to our bikes that have a greater impact on engine heat, than paint.

So go paint! I am hanging out to see this bike completed - I am lining up to BOTM it.

Offline fastbroshi

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Re: FFJMOORE CB550 Atomic #13
« Reply #563 on: December 22, 2011, 11:13:49 PM »
I think you should be fine with whatever paint you choose FFJ, this bike won't need to hold up to atmospheric reentry temps :)  Plenty of folks have used it before and not had any problems.  I think if you just followed the steps bwaller outlined it'll probably just last that much longer. 
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: FFJMOORE CB550 Atomic #13
« Reply #564 on: December 23, 2011, 12:13:19 AM »
So Lloyd, what would you recommend using as a coating? In your opinion will the spray can stuff work fine?
A two part thinned Epoxy would be optimal in my opnion.   Aluminized would probably be best, as the aluminum particles, will better match the base metal in thermal conductance, and have the lowest thermal resistance.  Further, the coating is quite tough for a long lasting durability.  I think it important to keep it thin, though.  Two part paints are rather inconvenient.  If you want a silver engine I suspect this would work well.  But, I don't know about the fuel resistance aspect.
http://www.chiefaircraft.com/aircraft/chemicals/paint/ca-wp-silver.html

All the paints I have direct experience on engines with are no longer available in California.
However, I would consider this:
http://www.plastikote.com/products/Specialty/Brake-Calliper-Paint.html
If you can believe the MFG claims of "500°F coating that is chemical, chip and rust resistant".  It seems ideal if you don't want or need flat black.

I would test any paint before committing to the whole engine.  But then, I've been lied to by product salesmen many times, both on the job professionally and personally.

FYI: Radiators are painted black for a reason.  Black has the best heat emissivity of all colors.  So, it adds radiation to the transfer, as well as contact transfer to the air molecules.  But, you never see a thick black coating on a factory radiator for a reason, and that is because black paint solids don't necessarily have high thermal conductivity values.
Black also collects heat and passes it to the substrate.  Much depends on the temperature state at the instant of scrutiny, as heat energy needs a differential in order to transfer, and the more extreme the differential the faster the transfer in any conducting device.  The coating can transfer outward and inward.

Quote
Quote
    If the case has a thermal transfer resistance (it does), any additional resistance, as a path way component, however small, can only add to the resistance path, which diminishes the cooling effect.

If that were always the case, heat sinks would not work.
I don't know what the poster's definition of a heat sink is.  But, any junior engineering student would observe that true heat sinks add at least two significantly important properties, mass and increased surface area.  Neither of these fundamentals is present in a simple surface coating.
So, my statement IS true in this matter despite the implicit denigration and personal opinion fueled bias.

Further, one of my earlier lessons in applied engineering was, that questioning a design or product is NOT a bad thing as the good ones will withstand and prove themselves and the bad ones based on hype or human desire, will not stand scrutiny and maintain a favorable standing.

Simply slinging mud at the questioner, does not prove a product or design valid.  It only obscures a product's or device's real functional integrity.

I did follow the diversion link (clubwrx) that was posted.  I couldn't find out how the device was tested, where the measurement points were, what test equipment was used, its accuracy rating, and error component.  I found the data to be inconsistent, apparently the dispersion coating worked better at some temperatures than others (I'd like to understand how that can be), and at times there were no differences.  The numbers aren't consistent either in actuality or by measurement error.  And on top of that, it was a test case of one, which is always inconclusive.  So, the link was basically a waste of time.  (Though, I'm sure the poster meant well.  It's the testing skills that were lacking.  It's not easy to set up and perform conclusive tests and experiments.  Particularly so, if the training and basic knowledge are scant.)

In short, just like the manufacturers marketing claims, the link reference also has no science or engineering to support it.  Any reputable engineering organization would dismiss both, as having no foundation data to stand upon.  In any of the companies I worked for, it would have to be tested in house before approval, if the manufacturer could not provide substantive test data.

What remains is that the product recommend (TLTD), still has no test data to support their dubious claims.  And, there is no evidence to believe they are the same or perform the same as some other manufacturer's product.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: FFJMOORE CB550 Atomic #13
« Reply #565 on: December 23, 2011, 01:14:16 AM »
FFS,  you prove it doesn't work, actually try ringing the manufacturer and ask for data instead of filling this thread up with your baseless opinions and over exaggerating everything   ::) I just offered it as a high temp engine coating, if it helps with the heat dispersion then its a bonus. also it was posted for FFJ , not you,  so i have absolutely no interest in your diatribe.  ::)




« Last Edit: December 23, 2011, 01:42:27 AM by Retro Rocket »
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: FFJMOORE CB550 Atomic #13
« Reply #566 on: December 23, 2011, 12:44:40 PM »
you prove it doesn't work,
You prove that it does in this application. (I'm certain you are unable, even though you highly recommended it, as there are no physics fundamentals that support the assertion.) 
Heat energy is moved by three methods; radiation, conduction, and convection.  How does your recommended paint support or aid the removal of heat from the engine case work?

For other more objective readers, I offer this:
The description "dispersant coating" has that feel-good desirability that appeals to the naive, until one asks, "to where is the heat dispersed"?  Does it increase mass where heat can be drawn from the substrate?  Does it increase surface area where the heat can be shed to the air?  Does it increase the radiation component"  I expect the answer to all these questions is no.  Where a dispersant coating makes sense is over a material that does not conduct heat very well, such as many plastics.  Such a coating would help the heat flow from any hot spots to a wider area where the heat exchange can take place into the surrounding atmosphere.  Conversely, if it is absorbing heat from an external source, perhaps the suns rays, such absorption could distribute the energy over a wider area.

In this application (coating and aluminum alloy with very good thermal characteristics), the only obvious reason to chose the TLTD paint is economics.  I don't recommend paying more for it over another brand in this application.  But, if it was the cheapest alternative, it might bear further scrutiny, if it can be applied in the required thin coating, of course.

However, the engine case and fins are already moving heat energy outward toward the air destination, with excellent conduction properties.  We don't want anything to hinder this function, and a thick coating of anything will add delay or reduce this action.

I just offered it as a high temp engine coating, if it helps with the heat dispersion then its a bonus. also it was posted for FFJ , not you,  so i have absolutely no interest in your diatribe.  ::)

But, you clearly do have an interest in attacking me personally, rather than actually discussing the physical merits of a product you so highly recommend without a hint of personal experience or supportable testing, all within the confines of a tech forum.

FFJ, and others, will have to decide for themselves if the technical aspects are of interest.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: FFJMOORE CB550 Atomic #13
« Reply #567 on: December 23, 2011, 01:10:08 PM »
To all involved in the thread, state your case without insult or personal attacks and let it go. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, they are not entitled to 'attack' the opinions of others. If it persists, the thread will be locked.
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline SF

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Re: FFJMOORE CB550 Atomic #13
« Reply #568 on: December 23, 2011, 07:22:29 PM »
MARRY X-MAS FJ! RAW ALUMINUM LOOKS BEST IMO ;D ....GOTA GO CATCH MY FLIGHT TO JAMACA  8)
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Offline scroggins5000

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Re: FFJMOORE CB550 Atomic #13
« Reply #569 on: December 25, 2011, 11:22:03 AM »
I follow Nathan Barnatt on Facebook, and I saw that he bought your bike "big blue". That's awesome. He's a funny dude.

Offline Flying J

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Re: FFJMOORE CB550 Atomic #13
« Reply #570 on: December 25, 2011, 11:28:29 AM »
Yeah. He is a pretty hilarious guy. There is a picture of him on the bike on my blog.

Offline Blackandsilver

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FFJMOORE CB550 Atomic #13
« Reply #571 on: December 26, 2011, 11:00:45 PM »
Lucky are you retarded? Anybody know wtf is wrong with this guy?


Lmao !!!


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Offline Blackandsilver

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FFJMOORE CB550 Atomic #13
« Reply #572 on: December 26, 2011, 11:09:06 PM »
Ill sort that out at some point. The problem is that nobody makes a brace for the 550 so it has to be custom.

Hey dude. Sorry if you got this sorted already but my buddy greenblue has a tarozzi fork brace on his 550. He can find anything. He's good at the Internet.


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Offline Bluegreen

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Re: FFJMOORE CB550 Atomic #13
« Reply #573 on: December 26, 2011, 11:50:54 PM »
Ill sort that out at some point. The problem is that nobody makes a brace for the 550 so it has to be custom.

Hey dude. Sorry if you got this sorted already but my buddy greenblue has a tarozzi fork brace on his 550. He can find anything. He's good at the Internet.


Win some lose some, it's all the same to me.

http://www.fastfromthepast.com/servlet/the-480/Fork-Brace-Honda-CB500K/Detail

Offline Flying J

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Re: FFJMOORE CB550 Atomic #13
« Reply #574 on: December 27, 2011, 09:03:03 AM »
Do you have that on your 550? What year forks do you have?