Author Topic: Vic World Sandcast On Ebay (Read 17297 times)

bender01 · « **Reply #50 on:** October 15, 2009, 07:40:30 PM »

It says in the comments it was an intact bike from the Okanogan area of eastern Washington. So its a restored bike. Question though. If he builds from NOS parts what does the title say? If he creates a bike from parts? I dont think this bike will sell but a thought out private offer after the auction might be accepted. Some people in this economy need dough. I still think 14K is a little much though. This is the real thing restored. It should be ridden and cared for. Its not an original survivor. I dont go to sandcast only site but I bet there are a few survivors somewhere.

mick7504 · « **Reply #51 on:** October 15, 2009, 07:52:33 PM »

Count down is on now.
Interesting to see if there will a splurge on it.

JLeather · « **Reply #52 on:** October 15, 2009, 07:53:43 PM »

He's gotta start with a frame, engine, and title. Everything else can be NOS parts, and even sometimes the engine cases, but he's gotta start with real bikes. He doesn't have a pile of NOS sandcast frames because, and experts correct me if I'm wrong here, the frames didn't get numbers til they were a complete bike right? So if a frame has numbers from a sandcast, then that was a sandcast bike that was shipped, rode, etc. He may tear them way down and replace almost everything, but these were all real bikes at some time.

moham · « **Reply #53 on:** October 15, 2009, 08:00:47 PM »

Quote from: JLeather on October 15, 2009, 07:53:43 PM

He's gotta start with a frame, engine, and title. Everything else can be NOS parts, and even sometimes the engine cases, but he's gotta start with real bikes. He doesn't have a pile of NOS sandcast frames because, and experts correct me if I'm wrong here, the frames didn't get numbers til they were a complete bike right? So if a frame has numbers from a sandcast, then that was a sandcast bike that was shipped, rode, etc. He may tear them way down and replace almost everything, but these were all real bikes at some time.

That makes sense...

mick7504 · « **Reply #54 on:** October 15, 2009, 08:08:53 PM »

I wonder what the reserve was?
Guessing 20k+

Raul CB750K1 · « **Reply #55 on:** October 16, 2009, 12:17:49 AM »

It is true, Vic's bikes are parts bikes.

Aren't all of our bikes parts bikes too? They were assembled from parts bin in Japan.

Vic has gathered the parts and assemble them himself. And as somebody pointed out, at least the frame was a "sandcast" and was a bike sometime in its previous life.

Buying one of Vic's bikes is today the closest way to buy a sandcast from the factory back in the day. it is a niche market, he sells a product for a very specific kind of customer, somebody who owned one when they were new and today, with money to dispose, want to relive the sensations: the noise, the smell, the thrill he experimented when he was younger.

Anybody who had restored any bike know how much time and money it takes. Add to the recipe that sandcast parts are few and far between, expensive, and in many cases, have been stored for years -with the storage costs involved-, and the price of Vic's bikes doesn't seem to unreasonable. If you look at the bike as a vehicle, you can get more for your dollar with other bikes. But if you are looking for something in particular -a sandcast like the one you had back in the day-, Vic World is probably the only way to go, be it buying from him directly or from any of his customers.

Regarding the bike in this listing, I bet somebody bought it out of nostalgia, had it for some years, put very few miles, and today he had realized he had already fullfilled his dream: owning a sandcast again. But the thrill of ownership is gone, it was gone just a few days after he parked the bike in the garage. Now it has become an expensive museum piece and he would like to sell it and recover the money, and let somebody else enjoy the pride of ownership too.

That's why I believe you can never fully enjoy a sandcast if you are afraid of it being dropped or getting mileage. At the end of the day, they are just a bike, and bikes are built for riding.

AshimotoK0 · « **Reply #56 on:** October 16, 2009, 01:00:22 AM »

This one was on Ebay UK last week. Sandcast frame - non sandcast engine. I could not make out if it had the correct ignition switch(recessed) and the Ducktail seat looked like the one I faked, as it has a K1 seat pan (spring under the pan gives it away).

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HONDA-CB750-K0-1969_W0QQitemZ230383816796QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Motorcycles?hash=item35a3f2105c

Nice photos though, I am going to use them for detail on my 69K0 diecast - particularly for finish on the brake caliper.

He later added 'Date of first registration 1st Jan 1969' -------I did not know they were available that early? Or is it wrong?

myhondas · « **Reply #57 on:** October 16, 2009, 07:25:07 AM »

Quote from: Raul CB750K1 on October 16, 2009, 12:17:49 AM

It is true, Vic's bikes are parts bikes.

Aren't all of our bikes parts bikes too? They were assembled from parts bin in Japan.

Vic has gathered the parts and assemble them himself. And as somebody pointed out, at least the frame was a "sandcast" and was a bike sometime in its previous life.

Buying one of Vic's bikes is today the closest way to buy a sandcast from the factory back in the day. it is a niche market, he sells a product for a very specific kind of customer, somebody who owned one when they were new and today, with money to dispose, want to relive the sensations: the noise, the smell, the thrill he experimented when he was younger.

Anybody who had restored any bike know how much time and money it takes. Add to the recipe that sandcast parts are few and far between, expensive, and in many cases, have been stored for years -with the storage costs involved-, and the price of Vic's bikes doesn't seem to unreasonable. If you look at the bike as a vehicle, you can get more for your dollar with other bikes. But if you are looking for something in particular -a sandcast like the one you had back in the day-, Vic World is probably the only way to go, be it buying from him directly or from any of his customers.

Regarding the bike in this listing, I bet somebody bought it out of nostalgia, had it for some years, put very few miles, and today he had realized he had already fullfilled his dream: owning a sandcast again. But the thrill of ownership is gone, it was gone just a few days after he parked the bike in the garage. Now it has become an expensive museum piece and he would like to sell it and recover the money, and let somebody else enjoy the pride of ownership too.

That's why I believe you can never fully enjoy a sandcast if you are afraid of it being dropped or getting mileage. At the end of the day, they are just a bike, and bikes are built for riding.

Vic tries to use as much of the original bike parts as possible. If a part is beyond repair or refinishing it would be substandard, he replaces it with a nos part. If you really want to get technical, the only original bikes are the ones that were bought new and never had an oil change or spark plugs or points, or etc. A K4 that sold on ebay within the last year met those standards and it's price showed it. A museum in Germany bought it for 15+ K and 2 K shipping. Bike had 3 tanks of gas through it and 497 original miles. Tire to tire and center stand to handlebars....it was the original bike. Find a sandcast like that in a two or three digit # and you just found the holy grail of hondas fours.

kos · « **Reply #58 on:** October 16, 2009, 07:49:22 AM »

Vic's bikes are "parts bikes" and anyone who would pay $29K is nuts. I'll sell you a complete CR750 racer that you could win any show with or better yet, go to Daytona and win the Classic F750 race.

My price $32K

KOS
M3 Racing USA

754 · « **Reply #59 on:** October 16, 2009, 08:13:58 AM »

Is it an original CR with provenance?
Were CR's numbered differently, or just bikes picked off the line?

Maybe they used the "missing motors"?

City Boy · « **Reply #60 on:** October 16, 2009, 11:31:44 AM »

Hi guys.I have a parts list #2 printed in '70.It lists crankcase 11010-300-070 used till Eng.#1000219.It then lists two more sets,-080 and -395 not showing Eng #'s used in.Four more sets are then shown,-405 used from Eng.# 1000220 and then -090 with no Eng #'s listed,then -405 used from Eng #1007415.Finally -110 is shown used from Eng #1044806.Two models are described,CB750 and K1.It was a fun time for parts order people back then,as I vividly recall!The oil pan changed just once during this period,so I am assuming the diecast started at Eng# 1007415. Rock On

kos · « **Reply #61 on:** October 16, 2009, 11:52:43 AM »

I worked in Honda dealership when 1969 CB750KO's came out. We replaced many a set of crankcases and none ever came with serial numbers stamped in them. Deaerl was to stamp the numbers from original cases in them. Some dealers like us had the punches to do this, but most did not and thus, Many a bike did not have engine numbers in the cases, And who cares...DMV's at that time did not require eng #'s.

KOS

Bob Wessner · « **Reply #62 on:** October 16, 2009, 12:03:40 PM »

Quote from: kos on October 16, 2009, 11:52:43 AM

I worked in Honda dealership when 1969 CB750KO's came out. We replaced many a set of crankcases and none ever came with serial numbers stamped in them. Deaerl was to stamp the numbers from original cases in them. Some dealers like us had the punches to do this, but most did not and thus, Many a bike did not have engine numbers in the cases, And who cares...DMV's at that time did not require eng #'s.

KOS

Thanks, you just described what I suspect happened to my K0. There are no engine numbers.

Simpson · « **Reply #63 on:** October 16, 2009, 02:43:44 PM »

Quote from: kos on October 16, 2009, 11:52:43 AM

I worked in Honda dealership when 1969 CB750KO's came out. We replaced many a set of crankcases and none ever came with serial numbers stamped in them. Deaerl was to stamp the numbers from original cases in them. Some dealers like us had the punches to do this, but most did not and thus, Many a bike did not have engine numbers in the cases, And who cares...DMV's at that time did not require eng #'s.

KOS

Thanks, good info!
Did you replace the crank cases primarly because of drive chain breaks creating holes in the cases? Or was there other issues?

Bill/BentON Racing · « **Reply #64 on:** October 16, 2009, 03:49:00 PM »

St.Louis museum sold an original sandcast last yr.,except cases,owner had stamped his name there!!,Bill

kos · « **Reply #65 on:** October 16, 2009, 03:52:49 PM »

WE put on new cases, as chains were breaking all the time and the new cases were better with larger (wider) final drive bearings, BUT were die cast.

KOS

Whaleman · « **Reply #66 on:** October 16, 2009, 04:32:24 PM »

So many sandcast cases were junked that could have been repaired. That is sad. Dan

754 · « **Reply #67 on:** October 16, 2009, 07:31:01 PM »

When we were collecting gas pumps big time.. I was lamenting that too bad there was not more of (some of) them.. to which my buddy replied..

If they didnt scrap so many of them, they would not be worth what they are today..

I believe the sandcasts had a Tremendous attrition rate, doubt that more tha 15 or 20 % still exist in a correct frame/engine (Minimum) combo anymore. in any condition..

btw my buddy did manage to collect at least 10 of the 15 most desireable pumps.. in existance.. but he was never a bike guy..

when I found my sandcast in the barn back in about 98, I told him where I found it.. he said I have been there many times, my daughter had music lessons there..

Kevin400F · « **Reply #68 on:** October 17, 2009, 06:35:26 AM »

Early in the thread, there were some comments disputing the idea that the early CB750 crankcases were cast in sand molds. Sand casting is a common industry process. The finished "mold" into which the aluminum is poured is composed of sand, and is destroyed after each pour. The master pattern (which could be of wood) is re-used over and over, but the (typically) sand-molded cores which are used in conjunction with the mold box are also destroyed after the pour. It all works just fine, but is labor intensive.

From: http://world.honda.com/history/challenge/1969cb750four/text/04.html

please see the reference to "sand-molded crankcases".....

"The initial production forecast of 25 units per day was pushed up to over 100 units. Back orders piled up as a result of this explosive, yet completely unexpected sales activity. Soon, the production of sand-molded crankcases, for which the factory did not have a dedicated machine, could no longer meet the rate required for mass production. In response, the entire crankcase production facility was upgraded to adopt the metal die-cast type."

The BS about the sandcast cases actually being gravity die cast is just that.....BS.

Regards,

Kevin

CycleRanger · « **Reply #69 on:** October 17, 2009, 08:50:26 AM »

Yes, there's no chance Honda would promote the myth that all the early cases were lovingly hand-crafted by the finest artisans unless it was true.....

< ducks >

MCRider · « **Reply #70 on:** October 17, 2009, 09:26:22 AM »

Man this is almost as good as an oil thread!

Kevin400F · « **Reply #71 on:** October 17, 2009, 09:59:41 AM »

Don't know whether Honda is "promoting a myth", but I'm sure they would get a kick out of CycleRanger describing their sweating, grubby workers down at the foundry as "the finest artisans".

BTW, after Honda switched from sand molds to metal dies for engine case production, what casting process was used for the cylinder blocks and heads?

Kevin

754 · « **Reply #72 on:** October 17, 2009, 11:31:03 AM »

The heads are sandcast, cylinders diecast.

Die casting molds are an expensive proposition, and took MUCH, Much longer to make then, than today, I am fairly sure the work on them started in the spring, or late spring, and were put in too use as soon as they were finished... and that they were under tremendous pressure to finish them..

I have heard that the 750 engine cases line was one of the first (or the first) examples of cell production.. the cases came in one end and came out finished, on a machine purpose built to only do that.

Now i do not know if that was ready, when they started on the regular production sandcast cases(spring of 69).. and the cases were perhaps machined in multiple operations on many machines.. this can lead to a higher rejection rate. .. Might explain some of the missing motors..

.......................................................................

To die-cast it is done in a cooled mold, which then pulls open and pieces are ejected.. ie they could & will fall out.

750 heads are not like that, the rubber plug holes under the cam towers, are where the sand cores where held in to form the cavity between combustion chamber and cam tower shelf. After casting the sand woud be removed through those holes (and maybe between the fins).. does that make sense now?

CycleRanger · « **Reply #73 on:** October 17, 2009, 07:49:01 PM »

Quote from: 754 on October 17, 2009, 11:31:03 AM

The heads are sandcast, cylinders diecast.

Die casting molds are an expensive proposition, and took MUCH, Much longer to make then, than today, I am fairly sure the work on them started in the spring, or late spring, and were put in too use as soon as they were finished... and that they were under tremendous pressure to finish them..

That's kinda my thoughts as well. I suspect when they saw the buzz they were generating they were anxious to get the 750 into production as quickly as possible and they went ahead and started with the molds they had made for the prototypes (be they sand or cast iron or whatever) and as soon as the die cast molds were ready they got them into production. I just don't buy that Honda didn't think the 750 would well as well as it did. They had done a ton of market research and had to be pretty sure of their market estimates or they wouldn't have spent the money to design the bike in the first place.

Raul CB750K1 · « **Reply #74 on:** October 18, 2009, 04:09:14 PM »

Quote from: CycleRanger on October 17, 2009, 07:49:01 PM

They had done a ton of market research and had to be pretty sure of their market estimates or they wouldn't have spent the money to design the bike in the first place.

It is not always like that. Sometimes they have designed and produced bikes that they knew from the start wouldn't be big sellers, like the turbos or the NR750. They did it to show their potential as bike manufacturers.

Who knows what crossed their minds at the time. The CB750 was born to tell the world that Honda was going into the big bike market. They knew the product was good but the customer welcome can seldom be anticipated. It makes sense to make a "batch" of bikes and, depending on the public's response, go on with the more expensive production method once the bike was already accepted.

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Author Topic: Vic World Sandcast On Ebay (Read 17297 times)