Topic: U.S. Goverment

[edbikerii]

OK, for the moment I'll run with your re-direction, but surely you didn't think I'd miss it, did you?

First you said:

And really, shouldn't Bill Gates pay a higher tax rate than somebody who makes $400,000 a year?

After some healthy rebuttal, you now state:

Well, okay. I'd rather not pay for war or bailing out trillion dollar industries. I'd sure love it if i could pay for some heath care instead. And I suppose that was a big part of the OP, we pay more than we get.

So, let's put that all together and get to the point:  YOU don't want to spend any of your money on anything.  You want to spend other people's money the way YOU see fit.

So, you think it is morally right to impose your will upon other people?

Furthermore, anyone making over $100,000/year these days is either in the highest tax bracket or is paying the Alternative Minimum Tax, so is effectively in the highest tax bracket anyway.  What about their rights to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"?  Is it fair that they work hard for their money, yet they should be saddled with the burden of supporting every other person out there?

What about just cutting all the damned ridiculous government spending, government agencies, government bureaucracies, government stimulus programs, government welfare, government entitlements, government czars, government bull#$%*, and let us get the damned economy moving in a sustainable way?

No, I'm not talking about throwing babies out into the trash heap and kicking the handicapped to the curb.  I'm talking about nonsense like section 8 housing for able-bodied men and women in their 20's.  I'm talking about chronic welfare for able-bodied people.  I'm talking about pensions for lazy, incompetent government employees who don't do squat for 20 years while "working" for the government, and then collect their dole for the next 30 years until they die.  I'm talking about government incompetence and waste causing us working people to have to work well into our sixties because the taxes are so high that we can never afford to retire.  I'm talking about government giving out contracts to vendors who contribute to campaign funds, thus perpetuating the system's flaws.  I'm talking about all those things, plus a plethora of other wasteful, inequitable programs that don't do a damned bit of good for anyone.

Most of all, I hate the lying, sneaking, nonsense of throwing money at "the poor" instead of actually teaching them how not to be poor.  Why would anyone want to actually teach them, and help them better themselves, when they are so much more useful as a voting block?

[syth82]

I was actually sort of trying to agree with you, we pay a lot in taxes and don't see much good for it. Though I really doubt that welfare queens, etc cost us anywhere near what the wars in iraq and afganistan (and the war on drugs for that matter) do. (no i don't have numbers to back that one up, feeling lazy)

[HavocTurbo]

I was actually sort of trying to agree with you, we pay a lot in taxes and don't see much good for it. Though I really doubt that welfare queens, etc cost us anywhere near what the wars in iraq and afganistan (and the war on drugs for that matter) do. (no i don't have numbers to back that one up, feeling lazy)

While I feel that way as well.... I think that line of thought is in for a HUGE wake-up call.

Given the overall reduction of available jobs in the US market... more and more people are looking to government programs to help support their lifestyle.

Whether or not there is a good reason for them needing help is irrelevant. It costs a crapload. And more and more people are signing up.

Unemployment stopped rising my ass.... we're close to 14% where I live and businesses are closing every month.

[syth82]

Not paying unemployment to those who need it is not going to get them their jobs back

[edbikerii]

yeah, and the unemployment numbers are not reflective of the truth at all.  Those that are chronically unemployed (out of work for more than 26 weeks) are not counted among the unemployment rate number.  They are considered "discouraged workers" and statistically removed from the workforce when unemployment is counted.  This is why the job market keeps shrinking, yet the number stabilizes.  Then, of course, there are the "underemployed", who have lost their good jobs, so they take part-time work for crappy wages just so they can support their families.  They are the biggest heroes of the economy, as far as I'm concerned, but the politicos get to pretend they aren't unemployed.

You want to see businesses, large and small, start hiring again?  Stop with the nonsense threats to the press every day!  We keep hearing about "healthcare", and the possibility that employers will be saddled with huge payroll taxes to pay for other people's healthcare.  Who's gonna hire a new employee with that hanging over them?  Then there's the spectre of Cap & Trade driving up costs of goods for every business, so how can they risk committing to new employee's salaries?  Then the nonsense about charging new taxes on financial industries.  Like it or not, those companies represent a very large part of our economy, especially in the NorthEast.  Keep threatening the banks with taxes, and I can assure you that they won't be hiring any new employees.  Plus, all of their employees pay taxes, so unless you get them hiring again, you won't collect the tax revenues necessary to cover the entitlements.

I was actually sort of trying to agree with you, we pay a lot in taxes and don't see much good for it. Though I really doubt that welfare queens, etc cost us anywhere near what the wars in iraq and afganistan (and the war on drugs for that matter) do. (no i don't have numbers to back that one up, feeling lazy)

While I feel that way as well.... I think that line of thought is in for a HUGE wake-up call.

Given the overall reduction of available jobs in the US market... more and more people are looking to government programs to help support their lifestyle.

Whether or not there is a good reason for them needing help is irrelevant. It costs a crapload. And more and more people are signing up.

Unemployment stopped rising my ass.... we're close to 14% where I live and businesses are closing every month.

[Frankenkit]

One of the most common traits I've seen among the "chronically unemployed" is that any menial job they can acquire will pay less than they can get on unemployment...

What I'm saying is:  if they can secure state aid for their kids and unemployment checks that way, and work here and there, making just enough to stay under "the line" where the gov't says they make "too much to qualify for aid" they will do so.

Here's the catch:22.  If we continued to help them make ends meet, what is that, some reward for being successful in keeping a job?  Why wouldn't every family qualify for that reward, then? They'd certainly ask for it if they saw it as "free money." 

Conversely, if they don't have any incentive to work multiple part time jobs or whatever it takes to provide for their family... if it's literally the logical choice for them to sit and "job hunt" for something that will pay them what they used to make before being laid off, they will do what is easiest and available to them. 

We all like to sit around and think that people are honest or hardworking, or take some kind of pride in doing a job well... but how do you really pick and choose the people who honestly need help taking care of their family and the people who need a kick in the ass for their "failure to launch"?

[HavocTurbo]

Not paying unemployment to those who need it is not going to get them their jobs back

That's not what I'm saying. Try to look at it from a different point of view. Please.

You want to see businesses, large and small, start hiring again?  Stop with the nonsense threats to the press every day!  We keep hearing about "healthcare", and the possibility that employers will be saddled with huge payroll taxes to pay for other people's healthcare.  Who's gonna hire a new employee with that hanging over them?  Then there's the spectre of Cap & Trade driving up costs of goods for every business, so how can they risk committing to new employee's salaries?  Then the nonsense about charging new taxes on financial industries.  Like it or not, those companies represent a very large part of our economy, especially in the NorthEast.  Keep threatening the banks with taxes, and I can assure you that they won't be hiring any new employees.  Plus, all of their employees pay taxes, so unless you get them hiring again, you won't collect the tax revenues necessary to cover the entitlements.

What I want.... isn't to burden the whole populace with gigantic tax hikes and large government programs.

It's to massively attack the "American" companies who farm out work to other "cheaper" nations so they can boost their profit margin. Companies like.... dare I say it.... Ford, who close down plants in the US and then open new plants in Mexico and cheaper countries so they can continue to charge $50,000 for a car and pay half the cost to make it. (just an example there are hundreds more)

This country used to make the biggest and the best equipment and personal items in the world. Now it's all made in China or Taiwan or Korea or Vietnam. Where the cost of living is almost nil because there is nothing there to begin with. And we turn a blind eye to that as consumers. All we see is whats cheaper and how much can I buy on credit.

Politicians are to blame as much as we are. The system is broken Ed. And more and more I see wiping the slate clean and starting over as a viable option.

What happened to the small business? High cost of American labor. In our greed we lost sight of the real issue. We have traded our intellect and business savvy to the highest bidder. (in this case the lowest wage worker)

Sigh- in my slight anger I'm beginning to fray my thoughts. Sorry.

[syth82]

I receintly heard that in a few european countries when a company is going through "rough times" where they would normally downsize, gov steps in says keep them on part time, and then lost time is paid to the employee by the government until the situation improves. I'm sure it's not a fix all, but makes some sense. Keep people working, save the companies the money, doesn't cost as much as full unemployment would.

[HavocTurbo]

I receintly heard that in a few european countries when a company is going through "rough times" where they would normally downsize, gov steps in says keep them on part time, and then lost time is paid to the employee by the government until the situation improves. I'm sure it's not a fix all, but makes some sense. Keep people working, save the companies the money, doesn't cost as much as full unemployment would.

Lol now you did it.... Ed's gonna get pissed!!! 

[BeSeeingYou]

The budget for 2009 broke down like this
Defense                     23%
Social Sec.                 20%
Medicare and Medicaid  19%
Other Mandatory          17%
Discretionary               12%
Interest                       5%
Tarp                            4%

Now welfare is part of "other mandatory" along with a lot of other stuff.  It is hard to get firm numbers but I did see some breakdowns from 1995 that showed AFDC and Food Stamps being 2%.  These seem to be the ones that raise such conservative ire but in reality they are a small part of the budget.  They are just an easy target.  Now, it's probably larger than 2% but how much could this have risen under the Clinton Welfare Reform and then 8 years of conservative rule? And if it did who's fault is that?

One other thing is that not all related military spending is in the defense budget so it is somewhat higher as a percentage than shown.  

It's easy to play around with the numbers too.  Some count medicare and social security as welfare so then they can say welfare makes up 56% of the budget.  And let's not even get started about the cost of corporate welfare.

[edbikerii]

Weren't you just complaining about bailouts a minute ago?

I receintly heard that in a few european countries when a company is going through "rough times" where they would normally downsize, gov steps in says keep them on part time, and then lost time is paid to the employee by the government until the situation improves. I'm sure it's not a fix all, but makes some sense. Keep people working, save the companies the money, doesn't cost as much as full unemployment would.

[syth82]

Yes I was...... And?

[edbikerii]

The budget for 2010 breaks down like this:

Note that Medicaid (8.19%) is pure welfare.  (NOT MEDICARE!!!)

Unemployment/Welfare and other "mandatory spending" comprise 16.13% unto themselves.

So now we're up to 24.32% welfare NOT INCLUDING SOCIAL SECURITY OR MEDICARE.

Bear in mind that workers pay into their STATE unemployment insurance plans every paycheck -- not federal.  So, this federal budgeted amount is IN ADDITION to state unemployment programs.

Meantime, the Small Business Administration gets a meager 0.02% of the budget!!!!!   If that isn't putting the cart before the horse, I don't know what is.




EDIT: I MIXED UP THE NUMBERS FOR MEDICAID & MEDICARE - NOW FIXED!

[edbikerii]

Ok, fine.  you don't see how this is government bailing out businesses.  Let me re-phrase:

Where is the stimulus that will create REAL jobs that are sustainable?  All you're proposing is more "corporate welfare", that provides a safety net for piss-poor management.

Yes I was...... And?

[syth82]

oh, looks like you're right ed. guess i'll go abandon my socialist ways.


Any cake left?

[JS550]

here... let me play this for you.

Oh my god Kit! You have enormous hands!

[JS550]

Wow, this has got some fired up posts. After reading through, I would vote for Ed & Havoc in the next pres/v.p election! Maybe we can all get some SOHC aid! Free carb kits for the masses!
Seriously though, you guys make sense. 

[HavocTurbo]

All I ask is some serious accountibility. From everyone. You, me, politicians, government workers, lobbyists, everyone.

Is that too much to ask?

Why yes, Havoc it is. You have no money and no influence. Therefore your opinion on matters of state have no merit.

Anyone who says that to a "lowly" citizen should be drawn and quartered. (in a strictly metaphorical sense)

[Frankenkit]

A literal sense would ensure that people listened to you better. 

You know, we think if somebody kills someone, that's murder, you go to prison. You kill 10 people, you go to Texas, they hit you with a brick, that's what they do. 20 people, you go to a hospital, they look through a small window at you forever. And over that, we can't deal with it, you know? Someone's killed 100,000 people. We're almost going, "Well done! You killed 100,000 people? You must get up very early in the morning. I can't even get down the gym!
...
So I suppose we're glad that Pol Pot's under house arrest… you know, 1.7 million people. At least he's - we know where he is - under house arrest! Just don't go in that #$%*ing house, you know?

The lesson here, HT, is that "More is always better".  Take that into account for your political aspirations.

On a serious note, when you say that the best way to go would almost be to wipe the slate clean... We both know that can/will never happen.  Every new movement has to not only create its own momentum but also fight the resistance of the past- everyone who says "It's FINE, JUST THE WAY IT IS!"  They will cling to some nostalgic memories of an era when, somehow, things weren't effed up, (or at least that's how THEY remember them...) and fight progress every bitter inch of the way.

[Joel]

here... let me play this for you.

Oh my god Kit! You have enormous hands!

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zZZpZvpDnM[/youtube]

[mlinder]

CAKE!

[HavocTurbo]

Kit you never fail to put a smile on my face. 

[edbikerii]

So, what say ye, HT?  Haha!

Like HT, I just want some answers as to why this BS is the way it is.  We deserve at least that.  How many working Americans would willingly continue to pay their taxes if they knew that $.25 out of every dollar was going straight into welfare programs, and ANOTHER $.32 was going into Social Security and Medicare?  That's $.57 out of every tax dollar!

Arguably, everything else in the budget, other than the 18.74% going into defense, is just going into wasteful government programs and bureaucracies, most of which are not necessary for the day-to-day operations of our nation.

[note:  I noticed that I confused two categories in my posting of the 2010 budget breakdown, so I've gone back and corrected that post]

Wow, this has got some fired up posts. After reading through, I would vote for Ed & Havoc in the next pres/v.p election! Maybe we can all get some SOHC aid! Free carb kits for the masses!
Seriously though, you guys make sense.  

[myhondas]

It's not un-American to ask that.  What I find un-American is to exaggerate way beyond common sense and say things that are not true.  The list posted at the beginning of this thread is a good example.

I don't dare go back and correct the few minor mistakes that were in my post.  I have been labeled  UN-AMERICAN   for blowing everything out of proportion and saying things that are untrue.....doesn't matter that I have given over 44 years of service to the Air Force & Coast Guard. Doesn't matter that 99% of that is factual. Doesn't matter that our government is the problem and not the solution. I thought that speaking your mind and saying you government is wasteful was as AMERICAN as one could be. What is questionable is someone saying that that is un-american. Sounds like BAAA BAAA sheep are on the march again.

[edbikerii]

Just so you know, others share your viewpoints, and appreciate your contributions and sacrifices.

It's not un-American to ask that.  What I find un-American is to exaggerate way beyond common sense and say things that are not true.  The list posted at the beginning of this thread is a good example.

I don't dare go back and correct the few minor mistakes that were in my post.  I have been labeled  UN-AMERICAN   for blowing everything out of proportion and saying things that are untrue.....doesn't matter that I have given over 44 years of service to the Air Force & Coast Guard. Doesn't matter that 99% of that is factual. Doesn't matter that our government is the problem and not the solution. I thought that speaking your mind and saying you government is wasteful was as AMERICAN as one could be. What is questionable is someone saying that that is un-american. Sounds like BAAA BAAA sheep are on the march again.