Topic: Calm down on the elitism maybe?

[Bluegreen]

  I have been doing a lot of reading on this forum since I found it last september and something has begun to trouble me. There are a lot of elitist remarks going on here. Everyone is entilted to their opinion and just as entiled to share it but I have noticed there really has been no rebuttles to a lot of these comments/speaches. And frankly I think some of these people have lost prespective.

 What am I talking about specifacly you may ask?

"It's why I try to avoid as much of the cafe/bobber threads on the forum as I can. Turning good base material into specialty niche, only a few appreciate, is just so sad. Most will become discarded junkers in a few years cause the fad has passed. IMO
Resurrect a near goner bike into something useful = admiration.
Hack up a good practical runner because of "style points" = pity/disgust."

Disgust? Really? Someone out there shares the same passion for motorcyles as yourself and you feel disgust at what they are doing? Maybe they don't have as much expereince as you, maybe they like rididng their bike and don't want to take it out of commision for months at a time because they slowly building the confidence with small things to work themselves up to a more daunting project. Maybe right now they are just  having fun tinkering and  learning. Maybe they saw a cafe and like the way it looked and this is how they got in to motorcycles? Another person to talk about bikes with, to maybe help you out on the road. Is this a bad thing? Apparently it's disgusting.

 Everyone has opinions on everything, I am no different or any better. I don't like every bike I see on this site, I wouldn't do a lot of things I see people doing, but that's ok, I don't have to ride it or ride with them. Although I would probably be excited to, I don't know a ton of people who ride these things. Snide remarks are probably not nescecary.
"I didn't want this to be another Honda with a tail." Cool, you are talented and have a good eye for what looks good, I can respect that, but it isn't nescecary to bring down someone else's bike or philosophy on what works for them. They are probably doing their best and are probably having fun, just like you.

I have taken up some pretty obscure hobbies in my time, one of wich probably only had a  thousand or so other enthusiasts spead out all over the globe. It really makes you appreceate how easy it is to get things done with large numbers of concentrated, like minded people. A lot of people that are into what you are is generally a good thing, lot's of other ideas etc. Don't chase them away. Again with prespective, how many Harleys, Crotch Rockets do you see in a day compared to cafe'd or even stock SOHC's? Don't worry, you're still in an elite group even if a bunch of n00bs come along and do their best to wreck it for you.


PS I have taken qoutes and not used names or dates. I am not trying to call anyone out, but they (qoutes)  make the point.

[mystic_1]

Well said.

mystic_1

[Terry in Australia]

I know who made that quote, and I agree with him entirely. The trouble is, you've either not understood what he was talking about, or you've deliberately taken the quote out of context to make your point.

The point that he raised, was that he cringed when he saw "enthusiasts" wreck a perfectly good bike that had survived in one, mostly original piece for 30+ years, just so that they could make another half arsed, half finished matt black POS, when they could have just started with a junker in the first place, in which case he happily applauded their efforts at building a "custom" bike, while saving another SOHC4 from the junk pile. 

The trouble that I see here is that some of our younger members (and definitely not all younger members either, there are some pretty smart kids here) don't understand the adoration that us older farts have for these particular bikes, because the young guys just weren't around when these incredible bikes took the motorcycling world by storm, and turned it upside down. It's a bit like that saying, "If you remember the 1970's, then you weren't there".

For them it's just another old bike that they've picked up cheap, they've got the standard "I bought it, so I can fcuk it up if I want to" attitude, they've just watched a couple of episodes of "Biker Buildoff", so armed with a hacksaw, a set of Harbor Freight spanners and a can of BBQ paint, they've decided that they're now "fabricators".......... (God I hate that word...............) and attack the poor helpless bike with vigour, until they decide that they'd really rather have a later, more reliable model bike like a 'Blade or a Gixxer, and the poor mangled remains of this once glorious bike ends up on EBay as yet another "Unfinished Project".

In the same thread that you borrowed that quote from you'll see a post from a younger member who spoke to the guy you've quoted about buying one of his nice original bikes, but as soon as the youngster explained that he wanted to modify it, the old fart stopped him straight away, and explained that he better look elsewhere, because would never sell someone a perfectly good original bike so they could chop it up.

The younger member, to his credit, understood his reasoning and respected his decision, and while the old fart could probably have used the money, his own personal morals just wouldn't allow him to do it. That's not elitism mate, that's integrity. Cheers, Terry.    

[mystic_1]

I can understand not wanting to chop up a good stocker but I sure object to the "you're too stupid to own a motorcycle" attitude that sometimes flies around here.

mystic_1

[andy750]

Interesting thread. Ill say up front I dont think anyone is too stupid to own a motorcycle and the more riders out there the better it is for all of us. Ill also say Ill ride with anyone and offer advice if I can to anyone who wants it and similarly will ask advice when I need it. Thats pretty simple and probably applies to most of us here. The most important thing to me is a motorcycle gets some miles on it.

However I can agree with those that cringe at yet another frame having its center stand tabs removed to save some weight (which is BS unless you are racing and even then...who do you think you are? Rossi? ) or to have a certain "look" when in a couple of years it`ll be discarded and some poor guy will have a bike that will never have a center stand again - do you know how useful they are out on the road when you have a rear tire puncture or even just lubing the chain? Same thing goes for bashing in perfectly good tanks. Its overdone and its boring! Cafe bikes have gone the same way as choppers did - they have become formula bikes for the most part - take a stock bikes, cut all the tabs off, bash in the tank, paint it black, and put some uncomfortable clubmans on it. Ride it 30 miles and then stretch because your back and wrists are sore  . And thats called individual expression? What the same as everyone else  .

A few good examples of well done bikes are Paulages (recent BOTM winner), DTMs CB750, the paint job on BGFootballs bike. More importantly time and money was spent on the engine - - making it go faster and not just on making it look good. 

And its not just old guys v young guys (which is pretty silly anyway) but I saw a thread recently where as the young guy was shaving off the center stand brackets, and all other tabs he was putting down the bobber guys for wrecking stock bikes!! And other posters chimed in and agreed!!! Elitism as you call it is age-independent.

But hey at the end of the day you paid the money for the bike and you are in theory free to do with it as you will. Just dont expect praise when it turns out to a be POS. This is a public forum after all 

Andy

[BobbyR]

I agree with Terry and Andy. While I am a purist personally, I do appreciate a well done Cafe, chopper or bobber. These bikes were in the day perfect for conversions. I have looked at these threads and have cringed at what some people have done. Bolting on mismatched parts salvaged somewhere and spraying everything flat black is not customizing, it is butchering.

This Forum is among the best I have have found for any vehicle. People have taken time to document repairs and how to fabricate special tools with text and photographs. It is all there and all some people need to do is search and they will find what they need to remove a rounded off oil filter cover bolt. After a while those questions get tedious.

People that come on here and announce themselves as being to new to bikes and wrenching are treated very nicely, people go out of their way to explain or provide a link to relevant threads. Do we have member with expertise that tend to take a high handed tone when imparting information, we do, but they do dispense the information and it is correct information.

I would suggest that you step back and look at this online Club and see the value it has brought to member over the years. Yes we get into punch ups at times, but what family doesn't?  

[333]

Now I disagree with the stupidity thing.  There are stoopid people in all walks of life, and our group here is no exception.  And I would classify stoopid as someone who does a cafe bike because he can't afford a new bike, and thinks that with enough mods, he can compete with the sport bike of today.

Great stoopid story.  I belong to the Wooden Boat forum.  Had a dude come in last fall and start asking questions about building his first boat.  Not so unusual, except that by the questions he was asking, it sounded like he had never even been in a boat.  He was designing one, instead of going with an already proven design.  Even against the advise of many, who advised him of the dangers of doing so.  One of his first questions was regarding placement of the "fin", which if he had at least read a book on the subject, he would have known that this is called a "keel".  My suggestion was to start with a sailing class, to which he replied that he was going to learn to sail in his own boat, built and designed by himself.  I'd link you all to the thread, but the forum is strict about profanity, and after about three pages of "you can't do it that way" he dropped the "F" bomb, and the mods deleted it and banned him.

The real punchline- He claimed to be a teacher.
The moral of the story-  There are stupid people in all walks of life.  Or as Forrest Gump said, "Stupid is as stupid does".

[Jordan]

Personally I don't do restorations, I refurbish with the thought that it will be a fun project and someday someone might like to restore. Not just bikes but old machinery like an atlas lathe and furniture pieces that I have done. I enjoy taking stuff apart fixing it up and making it work again. I find it intriguing to see the ways things were designed and built. Keeps me busy and off the streets LOL. If I want original, I do leatherwork or build me a bookcase or something. I don't know what it's called, but I don't think elitist is it. Stupid maybe, for wasting my time and money having fun?   

[Inigo Montoya]

Having read the replies here, I have to say that there is certainly an age split.
The older guys remember when these bikes came out. The younger ones don't. That is a piss poor reason to tell someone to not mod their bike. After all, look at how many bikes you old guys let sit for 20 years before one of us younger guys comes and finds the thing. Sorry but it is not a 30 year old guy that is buying these bikes new and then letting them sit in some shed for 20 years. So by the time one of us younger guys gets the bike, it is all rusted up and frozen and then we are told that we should restore it because of some supposed concern for a bike that was virtually abandoned?
So I can fully understand a person doing what they want even if it may seem half-assed. Some of these guys also have few funds to put forth in restoring a bike. So big deal if they use BBQ paint and shave off rusted tabs and throw on mac mufflers. Sometimes you do what you have to do. Since when did motorcycling become a well to do persons sport?

I mean I can certainly see trying to stop someone if the idea IS dangerous. Re-welding the neck, yeah that is dangerous. Taking off the center stand...not so much.
When someone wants to do something to their bike, the ONLY thing we should be concerned about is their safety, not whether we like what they want to do to the bike. A person asking about cafe styles does not need to be descended upon by the anti cafe crowd just because of what he wants to do.

Now granted, this does not split purely on age but that is were a lot of the split does occur.
I remember when industrial was asking about 21 inch rims and such, some just had to blast him for it. Why? pretty much because they did not like it. Oh sure some tried to couch it in concern for poor handling but in reality, no one would know how the bike would handle. Would the geometry change? Sure but would that make it immediately unstable, maybe but maybe not.

Part of the allure of motorcycles it customizing them.

[bucky katt]

although i personally would never consider chopping up a nice original example of a vintage honda, i do appreciate and respect the folks that do customs out of those pristine bikes. lets face it, a low miles all original good condition motorcycle is alot easier to do your custom work because you wont get nickle and dimed to death with all the little stuff that you get with a bike in less that stellar condition. i didnt even cringe when a neighbor around the corner took a beautiful 1932 chevy with it's original olive green-ish paint and original interior and turned it into a pro street hot-rod. it's all about different tastes in machines. if everyone did the same thing wouldnt life just be boring as hell?

[Inigo Montoya]

It most certainly would be boring!

[my78k]

"Individuality is fine as long as we all do it together" - Frank Burns

[Nikkisixx]

I'm still an FNG, but  I think there is a fairly evenhanded egalitarian attitude on this site. It is a community however, and as such it has strong opinions, village idiots (eg: yours truly) and such. 

It is unfortunate to see an abortion performed on either a nice looking survivor or a basket case.  Do so in the cold hard judgemental light of this here interweb thingy at your own peril.  You will get flamed.

[BobbyR]

I'm still an FNG, but  I think there is a fairly evenhanded egalitarian attitude on this site. It is a community however, and as such it has strong opinions, village idiots (eg: yours truly) and such.  

It is unfortunate to see an abortion performed on either a nice looking survivor or a basket case.  Do so in the cold hard judgemental light of this here interweb thingy at your own peril.  You will get flamed.

Nikki Sixx, We will always respect the Bassist for Motley Crue. 

[sangyo soichiro]

I think a lot of the "problem" is that most of us new guys run across Carpy's website first.  So the tanks get dented and the clubmans go on.  I'm speaking from personal experience (well... I didn't dent the tank, but I was tempted...).

But since then, I have learned a great deal from the guys in this forum.  If I could do over, I still wouldn't have a stock bike (well, actually I do have another 750 that's stock), but I definitely would do things differently.  I'm in the process of making those changes right now.

Probably the biggest influence you guys have made on me was attention to the engine.  I see a lot of cafe projects here where the engine is maybe cleaned and painted but that's it.  I assume, like I did, those guys also ran across Carpy's website first....

[my78k]

Well I won't rip on Carpy or his site...I have only dealt with him a few times over email or via this site. every time I have though he has always been top notch and he has more skill than I could ever hope to have!! I think he gets a bad-rep  and ripped on here for doing nothing wrong except for being successful and good at marketing (but I'll save that for another thread!)

My problem with this whole debate is the fact that most of these bikes will never be worth a huge sum of money no matter what we do to them! I mean obviously hacking up a pristine K0 is wrong....but only because you'd be nuts to lose the money!! Taking even a pristine k2-8 and hacking it up isn't ridiculous at all. Besides, the good parts off those bikes are generally sold anyways, which allows others to restore bikes.

The other thing is (and I am no expert so correct me if I'm wrong) didn't the original scene start back when these bikes were new? This has been going on for 30-40 years!

Why doesn't anybody yell at Proteal for chopping up and modifying his Duc? Surely someday 40 years from now that bike will be a collector's item! 

By the way I am sure someone here can quote the numbers but how many of these extremely rare bikes were made??

Dennis

[6pkrunner]

While not definitive numbers the most common number tossed around is 400,000 units over its 10 year run from 1969 to 1978. The largest one year production is pegged at 60,000 all it mentions is this record took place in 1973 or after.

While it is regrettable that a nice original bike gets cut up and possibly discarded by its owner after the project loses flavor - its the owner's choice. They own it and can do anything they want to it. Same as I tried to save 2 eBay bikes that were being parted - they were in superb condition. In conversations with the owners it was "Its worth more in parts."

Attrition will take place with these bikes as long as they exist. It is sad to see a veteran get modified in the owner's hopes of keeping pace with a newer bike - it just isn't possible. But again its their property and while those of us that were impressed when these things were dominating the streets want them to be left alone, it ain't going to happen. The numbers will dwindle to those that are left will be in the possession of those that value them as they left the factory. But when we pass the next generation will not view them in the same light. The 1960 muscle cars are hot now because the guys that owned them as kids now have the financial wherewithal to collect them. But what about the 50s machines that were so hot 20 years ago? Those guy are mostly gone and their machines of choice have faded with them. How many here are upset that a 1940s Harley has been chopped? Sure you may say its of no matter, but others view the old CB750 in the same light. Just an old relic from the past to be done with as the owner wants.

Any item is only of value to the generation that can appreciate it. Once its past - then the museums will hold the factory bikes. Will your kids appreciate the bike like you do? Will their kids? Sooner or later it is viewed in a different light and awaits a different fate.

[Nikkisixx]

I though bluegreen started this thread because of perceived elitism, not a debate about the merit of customization.  What I read in his quoted examples seems to point to someone taking a sh!t in our town square and getting called on it.  If you ride a donkey in the rodeo you'd be a clown, ride an ugly bike and get made fun of - even in cyberspace.

I am not throwing stones mind you:

[6pkrunner]

I read it to be anybody that does any non-returnable modification to a survivor was called out for it. Those that had the 100% original bikes were aghast that others would modify them and should leave them alone. I cannot see how it is elitism as how does the owner of a concours level restored bike, or a true survivor hold any sway over the owner of one that's modded? What makes them better? Some like stock bikes, some like rat rods, some bobbers, etc. Who can say definitively that their choice is best? Yes I agree that the number of survivor bikes is dropping each year because of those modding them, but its their property and they can do as they please. Check out some of any of the high end car shows. Acres and acres of 100% factory stock vehicles, or as damn near to stock as the owner can afford. Some love it, some say boring. Who's correct? And most of these vehicles were brought back from either the dead or from a highly modified state over their normal lives.

But just because someone owns a stock bike entitles them to no dominion over anyone else. Elitism is a precarious position as its propped up by yourself and those with the same vision. Once off your perch, your opinion is just that - your opinion. Well even while on it. And it only has importance to those who will listen or pay attention to it.
How many here have original bikes? Original battery? Original chain? Original bulbs? Original tires? And lets not call a World bike a 1969. Its a 2008,2009,2010 that just happened to be assembled from NOS parts. Carrol Shelby found that lesson out trying to use his old leftover VINs on leftover parts. No they are not brand new 1965 Shelby Cobras...well where the collectors and "elite" were concerned anyway. And they were valued accordingly.

[markb]

My opinion is if you paid for it you can do whatever you want with it.  That said it still makes me sad when I hear of modifications to sandcasts or early K0's.  I don't mean custom paint or polishing, that can be restored.  Although I suppose even chopping bits off the frame or worse could be restored too but it won't be the same and no one should have to go throught the effort.  Even then I respect anyone's right to do what they want with their property.

[CycleRanger]

This same argument occurs over at the Mustang forums I frequent.  Young vs. Old vs. Stock vs. Mod vs. "Resto-mod".

[Hush]

Having seen the forum thread on that massive motorcycle junkyard with SOHC4's rusting by the hundreds, it occurs that there are probably enough bikes produced by the Japanese to let everyone have one to do what they want with.
However.....don't chop the lovely stockers!!!!

[mystic_1]

My K0 came to me pre-ruined

mystic_1

[andy750]

My K0 came to me pre-ruined

mystic_1

Well that saved you doing it yourself 

[Hush]

Discount for rust or extra charge for the modification?