Topic: health care bill

[Markcb750]

Employer funded Workers Compensation Insurance............Yes (compulsory in all states, as far as I'm aware.)

Private Insurance Costs (variable based on cover). Typical private Medical  Insurance (comprehensive cover of hospital, doctor and extra services)for a family would be in the range of$3-4K pa.  Low end.....excess and certain gaps payable, high end.... certain gaps payable. Single cover about half rate. Some exclusions apply.

The private health insurance system works on agreed cover levels shared  between the government and the insurers. Gap costs left over are the patient's responsibilty.

The medicare system (public health insurance) also covers most of the expenses associated with patients without  private health insurance. Non emergency hospital treatments are treated according to criticality/need. Private practioner consultations are gap payable (some apply zero gap). Social security recipients can also get subsidised pharma's etc

A similar system and costs to US. 

I pay about 13% on Workers (PC!!) Comp. on my employees, High because of the accident rate in construction.

Our family health Insurance is about 6K a year for two of us. 

We pay the 2.8% tax on income.

I think most western nations pay similar amounts. 


It is a lot of money every year, and I doubt we will live longer then our grandparents did. 

Seems the best health care improvement was vaccines, antibiotics, and sanitary sewers. None of the rest of this wonderful treatment seems to have extended the average much,  law of diminishing returns I guess.

[w1sa]

So how much does your government(s) spend on health care to the population...?

If so, how much does it cost the average US taxpayer...?

[Markcb750]

Looks like Health and Human Services which covers the Federal part of government health care costs $2150 per citizen.

Estimated  with 350M people.

HHS budget for of $737B.


Each State picks up part of the government health care through mandates, I would have to do more research to know what that is for NC.

[traveler]

If your choice involves a career that dosen't make money.....how is that MY FAULT?

The problem with that statement is that someone needs to do those jobs as well and i gather that what you are saying is that those people don't deserve health care because they can't afford it even though they work and pay taxes. And what about your defense budget, thats there to protect everyone, like it or not, and there is a #$%* load more money spent on that, to the supposed benefit of all, so from your logic, you can protect everyone in the country but you can't keep them alive......does anyone else see the irony in that.?  

Mick

Clearly and elitist wrote that Mick. I couldn't see who was quoted.

One tid bit of fact. Thomas Jefferson nor any of the founders depended on health care insurance. They did depend on
doctors who took the Hippocratic oath.

Yep, I wrote it, and it's a fact.  If you get a degree in Art....and then wonder why you can't get a high paying job....whose fault is that?  Is there really anyone out there that doesn't know that teachers don't get paid squat??  So, if you go into teaching, you get what you signed up for.

People make decisions, and they must be accountable for those decisions.  Personal responsibility can be a real b1tch, I know.

Fact is......I feel no compelling need to cover your a$$ for making dumb decisions.  Take care of yourself.  I have asked nothing of you, so quit asking from me.  Freedom means "leave me alone".

~Joe

[traveler]

If your choice involves a career that dosen't make money.....how is that MY FAULT?

The problem with that statement is that someone needs to do those jobs as well and i gather that what you are saying is that those people don't deserve health care because they can't afford it even though they work and pay taxes. And what about your defense budget, thats there to protect everyone, like it or not, and there is a #$%* load more money spent on that, to the supposed benefit of all, so from your logic, you can protect everyone in the country but you can't keep them alive......does anyone else see the irony in that.? 

Mick

Because this is about CONTROL.  These folks are the same crowd that believes in gun control.  How's that working out for you down under?  From what I've read, crime has gone through the roof!  Well, healthcare is gonna drive costs through the roof!

~Joe

[traveler]

Traveler: You said that they ran SS into the ground. Could you be more specific please?

I've personally seen them take from the excess that SS has had over the years and used it elsewhere, like war. Now, it's time to pay it back and they don't have it because there are still a few wars going on among other things that money wasn't designated for in the first place. The reason it would also be falling short is because we now live much longer on average than we used to. Due to that, we use it longer after we retire and use more of the health care system to stave off death longer. We are also handling the burden of the baby boomers. Yes, we also have under achieving public, as some would call them, who don't pay into the till for various reasons, some being that they are too ill themselves to work and can't get enough help because they can't pay for it. It goes round and round. I'd personally love to see a National Healthcare system. Imagine how much I could be making on my pay if my employer wasn't paying towards my insurance? That would actually add $12/hr to my pay. 

I am a strong believer in people getting out there and helping themselves. I also believe some need some help to get started because they are so far down, for many reasons. In this land of equality, my other 1/2 wouldn't be insured if we lived in another state. We live here partially so she can be insured and be able go to school, thereby ending up paying more taxes in the long run and us being more financially stable to boot. Round and round it goes... with discrimination in this country. The home of the free, brave and "equal".

Btw, you can't go into any ol' hospital and get all the care you want. They don't have to do that. They have to give you the minimum necessary. They then send you to places like where I work. We are considered one of the best hospitals in the country, not the worst. I'm proud to work at a place that is like that. If others weren't so worried about taking a financial hit and the 1st question out of their mouth wasn't "how are you going to pay" before they treat you or send you out the door, this would be a much better country to live in, for infinite reasons.
It is obvious, some of you really don't have a clue what is going on in real life regarding this stuff, you just parrot what you hear on the TV and from those who have an agenda. i actually feel bad for you but then again, you as an adult, choose what you follow and believe. You are already paying much more than you could possibly understand.

How did I get out of the hole I was in, btw? I worked 3000-3500 hours/year for 10 years. Luckily, I found a job I could do that. Luckily, I had good insurance to get the care I needed to begin with so I could recover well enough physically to do that. Without that, I would have ended up just sitting there and being a burden on the system forever. No doubt in my mind. See how it pays off for everyone in the long run to take care of things the right way the 1st time and get going again? Not all are going to do the right thing, but I bet most will if they have the chance. That is what I choose to bet on, the good in people. 

BobbyR: I think anyone with any sense saw that coming. The gov't said they couldn't turn anyone down, they didn't say they couldn't jack up the rates so high that no one could afford it. They will still keep the hard to cover people off their books. They will also loose many good, longtime customers too. I wonder how they figure to stay in business by jacking up the rates? In this case, I think they are shooting themselves in the foot along with America. Shame on the insurance companies who do that. The CFOs still thinking that it's all about them instead of the sick and needy. 

I'll make it simple.  I pay into SS, but will not get my SS money back.

~joe

[Jordan]

good or bad it is a law, now we get to see what happens. I am just waiting for the $ hit and reduced coverage, the talking heads say is inevitable for ssi/ssdi recipients. Is that the sky I see falling? I saw a pbs show a couple of years ago that put out this interesting concept, if every American of legal age 18 to 65 paid a flat tax of 1,800 per year and every business paid the same for each employee with no loopholes or way for anyone to cheat the system, there would be enough cash in a couple of years to provide everything for everyone, from new highways to paying off the national debt. Then I guess we would all live happily ever after in a wunerful wunerful Utopia, all slaves to the man! LOL never happen.

[Inigo Montoya]

Wow joe, just wow. Are you really that narrow minded?
What party is for gun control? You musta missed the some of the last laws that went in, notably a credit card law where part of it was the allowing of guns in national parks. This was done in the couple MONTHS so it was passed by democrats. that does not sound like gun control to me.

Also,much of the SS pillaging was done by republicans. Reagan was big on this.
But whatever.

Also, as for the pay of jobs, there are only so many jobs that pay well.
You need someone to cashier your groceries don't you. How about to stock them shelves. Those jobs do NOT pay well yet they are just as needed as some construction job. You are purposely #$%*ting on people doing jobs that HAVE to be done. Do most of these people do this same job for their whole life? No but you seem to think they should be punished for providing services you use everyday. "hey you, gas station attendant. You serve me any time I need gas but you must be punished for serving me!"
Really, that is what it sounds like you are saying.
Besides that, I would not want to live in a world without art and without teachers. But I guess to you, maybe freedom means being stupid and living in caves? After all, how do you get where you are today? People taught you what you know. You should be thankful that some cared enough to make crap wages to teach and try to make you a better person.

[BlindJoe]

If your choice involves a career that dosen't make money.....how is that MY FAULT?

The problem with that statement is that someone needs to do those jobs as well and i gather that what you are saying is that those people don't deserve health care because they can't afford it even though they work and pay taxes. And what about your defense budget, thats there to protect everyone, like it or not, and there is a #$%* load more money spent on that, to the supposed benefit of all, so from your logic, you can protect everyone in the country but you can't keep them alive......does anyone else see the irony in that.?  

Mick

Clearly and elitist wrote that Mick. I couldn't see who was quoted.

One tid bit of fact. Thomas Jefferson nor any of the founders depended on health care insurance. They did depend on
doctors who took the Hippocratic oath.

Yep, I wrote it, and it's a fact.  If you get a degree in Art....and then wonder why you can't get a high paying job....whose fault is that?  Is there really anyone out there that doesn't know that teachers don't get paid squat??  So, if you go into teaching, you get what you signed up for.

People make decisions, and they must be accountable for those decisions.  Personal responsibility can be a real b1tch, I know.

Fact is......I feel no compelling need to cover your a$$ for making dumb decisions.  Take care of yourself.  I have asked nothing of you, so quit asking from me.  Freedom means "leave me alone".

~Joe

How the hell is becoming a teacher a dumb decision

[bikerbart]

Thank you Demon for that.I love the people in this country who think that just because you have a #$%*ty job you dont deserve healthcare.I had #$%*ty jobs my whole life,I guess that means I am lower class and dont deserve any.You "freedom"people are too much.You dont like social programs then dont use the postal service,cops,firemen,Etc.Etc.You well off and upper middle class and/or wealthy try going without for a year.We as a people are not better than any one else in this world,we are all deserving of basic healthcare that doesnt bankrupt us.But you flag wavers and tea party fools think you are somehow better or your way is the only way,In the marines there is a saying "Improvise,adapt and overcome"Which is another way of saying Change the plan or die.That is what I love about Europe,Canada and most other Inustrialized Nations,The guy washing your dishes can get equal healthcare as the the CEO who's dishes are being washed.

[Bob Wessner]

Also,much of the SS pillaging was done by republicans. Reagan was big on this.

Well, I'm not sure I would blame any administration in particular. The "Social Security Trust Fund" consists of a special breed of bonds held only by the Treasury. Low interest, but theoretically secure. Taxes collected (SSA) are used to purchase these and then the $$ goes into the General Fund and is available and used for anything in the Federal Budget. Definitely not a 'lock box' arrangement. Oh, I think Al Gore proposed that though.  

[traveler]

I didn't say it was a dumb decision....I said you get what you signed up for.  Money isn't everything.  But, if you know that the pay is low, coming back later acting as though you didn't know, doesn't wash.

point 2:  Obama has a very distinct record on gun control.....but if you re-read my post, you will see I made a comparison....Australia has gun Control....and right after it was implemented, crime went up 44%.  The correlation is, that "free healthcare" is NOT free....all budget estimates outside of Obammy's own nitwits shows that costs will go UP.

Opinions were sought...I have given mine.  That is my right.  If you choose to be butt hurt over it, that was not my intention, but you will just have to get over it.  MANY feel the way I do....and at the rate things are going now, the November elections are gonna be UGLY for the Democrats.

~Joe

[traveler]

Thank you Demon for that.I love the people in this country who think that just because you have a #$%*ty job you dont deserve healthcare.I had #$%*ty jobs my whole life,I guess that means I am lower class and dont deserve any.You "freedom"people are too much.You dont like social programs then dont use the postal service,cops,firemen,Etc.Etc.You well off and upper middle class and/or wealthy try going without for a year.We as a people are not better than any one else in this world,we are all deserving of basic healthcare that doesnt bankrupt us.But you flag wavers and tea party fools think you are somehow better or your way is the only way,In the marines there is a saying "Improvise,adapt and overcome"Which is another way of saying Change the plan or die.That is what I love about Europe,Canada and most other Inustrialized Nations,The guy washing your dishes can get equal healthcare as the the CEO who's dishes are being washed.

compare europe's GDP to the USA.  Therein lies the difference.

You don't "deserve" anything.  You have to fight to make it in this world.  Thinking that Brack, or anybody else will give ti to you, is a fallacy.  You were born into the world without anything, and you will leave without anything.  Expecting others to cover your share......dosen't go voer well in the USA.  The USA was built on individual achievement, not income redistribution and the concept that everyone gets cradle to grave goodies

~Joe

[traveler]

Thank you Demon for that.I love the people in this country who think that just because you have a #$%*ty job you dont deserve healthcare.I had #$%*ty jobs my whole life,I guess that means I am lower class and dont deserve any.You "freedom"people are too much.You dont like social programs then dont use the postal service,cops,firemen,Etc.Etc.You well off and upper middle class and/or wealthy try going without for a year.We as a people are not better than any one else in this world,we are all deserving of basic healthcare that doesnt bankrupt us.But you flag wavers and tea party fools think you are somehow better or your way is the only way,In the marines there is a saying "Improvise,adapt and overcome"Which is another way of saying Change the plan or die.That is what I love about Europe,Canada and most other Inustrialized Nations,The guy washing your dishes can get equal healthcare as the the CEO who's dishes are being washed.

Jsut remember, someday someone is liable to see you on your bike, and demand that they get a free bike like that too!  Then, we will raise your taxes to GIVE him one.  The fact that you earned and paid for your dosen't matter....he "deserves" it.  Income re-distribution....what a wonderful thing!  I could write a full list of things others have that I feel I should be given as well!  Maybe I should just quit working and let someone else carry the burden!  It would give me more time to ride, that's for sure!  Have to think that over.....

~Joe

[andy750]

Hey Joe (Traveler) in your "Lord of the Flies" world where everyone fights only for themselves and everyone should get a well-paying job (which is impossible as not everyone can have a well paying job - this is a "utopian idea") so that they can afford health insurance what happens to those that dont earn enough?

What is YOUR plan for the teachers? cleaners? service industry (e.g. fast-food workers) - what are they supposed to do for healthcare? Rather than say its their "fault" for not getting a higher paying job or "they get what they deserve" how do YOU suggest they afford healthcare?

I am curious. Its easy to rubbish a plan but how about offering your solution?

[Inigo Montoya]

Joe, a bike is not the same as healthcare, not even in the same galaxy.
Also, what is obama's record AND where is this record from? That makes a difference. He knew perfectly well this amendment was added into the credit card law. He could have vetoed it now couldn't he. I also have not seen bill after bill go in about banning guns or anything like that. It also seems to me that gun laws around the country are RELAXING, possibly even in chicago. Yup, lots of gun control there.

Also, the usa may have been built on personal achievement but even back then people still had to work together.
The USA is built and now that model may no longer apply the way you think it should.

Just remember, a LOT of people do NOT feel the way you do.
So november may NOT be bad for the dems. We will all just wait and see.
BUT lets also keep in mind that the republicans were supposedly against this bill. Lets see if they get control of congress and try to remove it.

[HavocTurbo]

You don't "deserve" anything.  You have to fight to make it in this world.  Thinking that Brack, or anybody else will give ti to you, is a fallacy.  You were born into the world without anything, and you will leave without anything.  Expecting others to cover your share......dosen't go voer well in the USA.  The USA was built on individual achievement, not income redistribution and the concept that everyone gets cradle to grave goodies

~Joe

While I feel exactly the same way, I have worked for myself since I was 18, even I know that not working to provide decent healthcare for the masses could land me in hot water someday.

I don't feel like I "deserve" anything. But short of putting myself in a bubble, how can I keep from getting sick? Blame my poor genes from my parents?

Or what happens if I am working on a customer's bike and the straps holding it to the table suddenly break and the bike falls on me?

Or what would you have done if YOU got pummeled by a drunk driver? And then a city bus?

Don't get me wrong, I paid everything I owed, but it would be nice to use that money for other things.... like fixing my bike.

[traveler]

Ask yourself this....if the healthcare bill is so good....why did congress EXEMPT themselves from it?

Also remember, there IS a difference between a hand up and a hand out.

I don't mind helping people out.....but I'll be damned if I help someone who isn't pulling their weight.  The idea that someone who washes dishes is the same as someone who built their own business by the sweat of their own brow....who worked EXTRA instead of watching the football game...they are the SAME?  hmmmm.......

But...perhaps I am wrong.  You vision of a country that is fair and balnced for everyone may very well come to fuition.  The folks that were elected are hell bent on giving it a go.

~Joe

[HavocTurbo]

Ask yourself this....if the healthcare bill is so good....why did congress EXEMPT themselves from it?

Which brings me back to my original point a few pages ago.....

Why not just provide congressional care for everyone, seeing as how we already pay for it with taxes.

[bikerbart]

Traveler,I never asked for anything free.My point was that we all deserve basic healthcare.I am sick of my taxes going towards ridiculous programs,I just think we can do better.But then again politicians are professional liars.

[BobbyR]

Ask yourself this....if the healthcare bill is so good....why did congress EXEMPT themselves from it?

Also remember, there IS a difference between a hand up and a hand out.

I don't mind helping people out.....but I'll be damned if I help someone who isn't pulling their weight.  The idea that someone who washes dishes is the same as someone who built their own business by the sweat of their own brow....who worked EXTRA instead of watching the football game...they are the SAME?  hmmmm.......

But...perhaps I am wrong.  You vision of a country that is fair and balnced for everyone may very well come to fuition.  The folks that were elected are hell bent on giving it a go.

~Joe

I have read your other posts, your opinion. On this one I will call you out. You are assuming that all people have equal intellect and all of those in these types of jobs are working below their abilities through laziness, or lack of ambition.

There are those among us for whom washing dishes, or collecting shopping carts, or bagging groceries are working at the highest level they possibly can. It is better for our society and those individuals that they get out and work.  Do you agree?

[andy750]

That is what I love about Europe,Canada and most other Inustrialized Nations,The guy washing your dishes can get equal healthcare as the the CEO who's dishes are being washed.

I think this says it all - equal healthcare for all irrespective of your profession.

Traveler/Joe - Why dont you want this in the US ? You seem to think you are better than the dishwasher/teacher/service industry guy....

[bikerbart]

In the Immortal words of Ted Knight from Caddyshack"the world needs ditch diggers too".(just trying to lighten the mood)We all have to start somewhere right,I washed my share of dishes in my time as well as other low paying jobs,but I was happy to be working.But according to Joe I was not deserving of healthcare.I am in a better place,but then again I'm 43,It took me a long time to dig out of my financial mess(about 15 years)and get my credit rating good,so for most of my adult life there were things I just couldnt do or have because I got sick and had no money to pay for it.It is wrong.Joe,have you ever been without??Try standing in someone elses shoes for a while and see how difficult life can be.

[ev0lve]

Rings a bell

[mlinder]

Bring us the machine that goes "ping"!