Author Topic: health care bill  (Read 38703 times)

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Offline bucky katt

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #375 on: March 31, 2010, 09:04:19 PM »
Well, sorry Bobby, but I think that everyone here has overlooked a major part of the "healthcare reform bill".  

What, exactly, does a government takeover of the entire student loan industry have to do with healthcare reform?

s.

. I gotta be honest with you Ed, the Student Loans are predatory. I was appalled at how perverted the student loan system had become. Variable interest rates tied to either LIBOR or Prime with a heavy uplift, and really crappy terms. What they are doing to these kids is criminal.  


man oh man you are not kidding about student loans being highway robbery.  wont go into specifics but i learned the hard way just how the scum sucking bottom feeders make their money.

  thread hi-jack over...........carry on  ;)
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Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #376 on: April 01, 2010, 12:02:34 AM »
Well, sorry Bobby, but I think that everyone here has overlooked a major part of the "healthcare reform bill".  

What, exactly, does a government takeover of the entire student loan industry have to do with healthcare reform?



Since the bank-based loan program began in 1965, commercial banks have received guaranteed federal subsidies to loan money to students, with the government assuming nearly all the risk. In a sense the government was paying people to lend out taxpayer dollars with the banks taking most of the profit.  The new legislation makes more money available to students by cutting out the middleman.  Although private banks will no longer be allowed to make student loans with federal money, many will continue to earn income by servicing those loans.

The Congressional Budget Office said the direct-lending approach will save taxpayers approximately $61 billion over 10 years. Roughly $40 billion of the savings will be redirected to higher education.  

Hardly a government takeover when it was  federal taxpayer money all along.

« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 12:17:10 AM by srust58 »

Offline edbikerii

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #377 on: April 01, 2010, 03:33:04 AM »
I love the term "predatory lending".  I love how it takes all responsibility for borrowing money off of the borrower, and suddenly it becomes the banks' fault that people borrowed more money than they could afford to pay back.

Notice also the assumptions that every American kid is:
a) qualified to attend college.
b) ENTITLED to attend college.
c) a miserable failure if they don't attend college.
d) successful as long as they graduate, regardless of what bull-#$%* major they take up in college.

The real predators in the student loan industry are the schools and the textbook publishers, who are selling "the American Dream" to kids who think that if they don't pay up, their lives will be ruined.  The universities are loving this new taxpayer-funded student loan stuff as it locks in their revenues for the foreseeable future.

No matter how you slice it, taking over segments of the country's banking industry is a major step towards socialism, which should have been given quite a bit more attention as part of the "national debate".  Instead, the first time most people heard of it was AFTER the "healthcare reform bill" was passed.

Well, sorry Bobby, but I think that everyone here has overlooked a major part of the "healthcare reform bill".  

What, exactly, does a government takeover of the entire student loan industry have to do with healthcare reform?


Nothing at all. It is a widely used tactic to tack one bill inside another. Goes on all the time and for less noble reasons.

I paid most my kids College out of my pocket. I wanted him to have some skin in the game, so I made him take out small loans. I was in the loan business until I got am honest job, so i know the tricks. I gotta be honest with you Ed, the Student Loans are predatory. I was appalled at how perverted the student loan system had become. Variable interest rates tied to either LIBOR or Prime with a heavy uplift, and really crappy terms. What they are doing to these kids is criminal.  Overhauling the system is a good thing. They can take the current as written Health Care bill and shred it as far as I am concerned.
The Student Loan reform may be the best part of it.
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Offline bucky katt

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #378 on: April 01, 2010, 03:54:42 AM »
i didnt mean it to sound like i was an innocent going into the student loans, i have trouble putting thoughts onto paper sometimes. i take full responsibility for those student loans and i still make regular monthly payments though theyre nowhere near what they are spposed to be since i havent held a regular job since march of 2007. i guess what we were trying to state was that the lenders know theyt have you by your short curlies, especially those of us that had no other way to get the money together to go to school.  i knew full well what i was getting into. thank goodness theyve been decent about working with me and my financial situation.
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Offline HavocTurbo

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #379 on: April 01, 2010, 08:42:17 AM »
If we stopped all the unreadable lawyerese on loan applications and came out with it in plain english.... maybe less people would get into loans they "unknowingly" cannot afford.

Nothing worse than looking at school loan paperwork and then being notified by your lawyer that the terms specified are only for the first year and then after that they try to remove your sperm by force.

And there's another scam. Let's write things so only we can read them clearly, so that way people have to pay for things twice. Once to get it writtten and a second to have it read to them.

#$%*ing ridiculous is what it is. Scavenging lawyers..... and to think I almost became one.

I love the term "predatory lending".  I love how it takes all responsibility for borrowing money off of the borrower, and suddenly it becomes the banks' fault that people borrowed more money than they could afford to pay back.

Notice also the assumptions that every American kid is:
a) qualified to attend college.
b) ENTITLED to attend college.
c) a miserable failure if they don't attend college.
d) successful as long as they graduate, regardless of what bull-#$%* major they take up in college.

The real predators in the student loan industry are the schools and the textbook publishers, who are selling "the American Dream" to kids who think that if they don't pay up, their lives will be ruined.  The universities are loving this new taxpayer-funded student loan stuff as it locks in their revenues for the foreseeable future.

No matter how you slice it, taking over segments of the country's banking industry is a major step towards socialism, which should have been given quite a bit more attention as part of the "national debate".  Instead, the first time most people heard of it was AFTER the "healthcare reform bill" was passed.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #380 on: April 01, 2010, 09:55:40 AM »
Ed, you live in a bubble. Today even to be appointed as a street Cop you need a Associates Degree. I know you love the public Colleges, but they are not large enough to accommodate the demand and they cannot offer all of the majors people would need. To fill the gap, public Colleges would have to expend billions in  construction  cost which would come out of your tax bill.                                     

The number of jobs that do not require a degree have been dwindling quickly. The US is not creating those jobs, and those that do exist are low paying for the most part. Yes union plumbers and electricians can make more, but the unemployment rate in construction is around 50% in this region now.
 
I do not like the fact that they have taken young people first starting out in life and preying upon them. These adjustable rate loans that now accrue interest while the person is in School, so each period your loan balance goes up is predatory. You don't have to pay until graduation, but at graduation you are paying interest on more money than you borrowed.

The idea of Student loans was to help people get started in life, not have them start their working life with an anchor around their neck.
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #381 on: April 01, 2010, 11:28:34 AM »
First of all, let's not change the subject, Bobby.  The problem here is that the government sneaked in a bunch of socialist banking takeover measures into a so-called "healthcare reform bill" at the last minute, as part of "amendments" that were supposed to tie in the house bill with the senate bill.  That is sneaky, deceptive, done behind closed doors, and clearly not "transparent".  There was NO PUBLIC DEBATE on these banking measures.

As for your diversion regarding the "need" for a college education, I'm certainly not disputing that many jobs have formal requirements for college educations, but it is truly very rare that one needs a college degree to get those jobs done.  Your example of NYC street cops is a perfect case-in-point.  The job has continually become more and more rote, with any intelligent input from the police officer being discouraged.  No longer is "discretion" tolerated.  If a police officer diverts from procedures in any way, his job is in jeopardy.  However, the formal education requirement has increased, and the relative compensation has DECREASED.  A NYC cop today can expect to start out making less than $35K per year, which is totally ludicrous by NYC cost-of-living standards.

Public colleges today are more than adequately equipped to educate students who are truly qualified, but they have been saddled with "open admissions" policies and useless liberal arts programs.  Public colleges are inundated with moron freshmen who really have no business taking up space on any college campus.

After attending public college at night for nearly 10 years (ending in 1999) while managing my career by day, I managed to earn enough money to pay for my education and graduate with ZERO student loan debt.  In fact, by the time I graduated, I had paid off the student loans that I had foolishly borrowed when I first started school at an expensive, private college.  In addition, I had amassed a tremendous amount of real-world experience, and built a decent resume (which goes much further than college after your first job, assuming you've done a good job).

Luckily, most of the morons at public colleges drop out before they finish their first year, so things get better as students progress.  As an employer and a manager, I found that the quality of public college graduates from technical majors such as Mathematics, Computer Science, Accounting, Economics, etc., was much higher than average.  They are much more pragmatic.  In fact, with a few notable exceptions, I've found that Ivy League educated employees are some of the laziest, least motivated, "entitled", good-for-nothings I've ever had the displeasure of firing.

Ed, you live in a bubble. Today even to be appointed as a street Cop you need a Associates Degree. I know you love the public Colleges, but they are not large enough to accommodate the demand and they cannot offer all of the majors people would need. To fill the gap, public Colleges would have to expend billions in  construction  cost which would come out of your tax bill.                                     

The number of jobs that do not require a degree have been dwindling quickly. The US is not creating those jobs, and those that do exist are low paying for the most part. Yes union plumbers and electricians can make more, but the unemployment rate in construction is around 50% in this region now.
 
I do not like the fact that they have taken young people first starting out in life and preying upon them. These adjustable rate loans that now accrue interest while the person is in School, so each period your loan balance goes up is predatory. You don't have to pay until graduation, but at graduation you are paying interest on more money than you borrowed.

The idea of Student loans was to help people get started in life, not have them start their working life with an anchor around their neck.

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Offline ev0lve

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #382 on: April 01, 2010, 12:06:30 PM »
First of all, let's not change the subject, Bobby.  The problem here is that the government sneaked in a bunch of socialist banking takeover measures into a so-called "healthcare reform bill" at the last minute, as part of "amendments" that were supposed to tie in the house bill with the senate bill.  That is sneaky, deceptive, done behind closed doors, and clearly not "transparent".  There was NO PUBLIC DEBATE on these banking measures.

Wow. Just wow.

Government backed loans are there because "we the people" view the education of our populace as a priority for those that want it.

Quote
Public colleges today are more than adequately equipped to educate students who are truly qualified, but they have been saddled with "open admissions" policies and useless liberal arts programs.  Public colleges are inundated with moron freshmen who really have no business taking up space on any college campus.

Again, wow.

Community colleges are there not just for worker retraining but explicitly for those who are truly NOT qualified to go to regular 4 year colleges - but want to. The comment about useless liberal arts programs is just a bonus in that paragraph.

Pell grants are not without requirements for GPA. They aren't just free money.

As I understand it the provision for taking the bank middlemen out of the equation saves a ton of cash and forgiving the loan outright after 10 or 20 years is an encouragement to go get some education. It is, I think, absolutely the correct thing to do if you consider education - liberal or otherwise - an important component of America's economic future.

President Obama said just that in fact, "Today, we’re finally making our student loan system work for students and all of our families,” “We will provide the support necessary for you to complete college and meet a new goal: By 2020, America will once again have the highest proportion of college graduates in the world.”

Do you actually disagree with this? Are you really actually perturbed that it will save $40 billion a year? Or is it that you really feel the banks should profit from administering government guaranteed loans?

Offline seaweb11

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #383 on: April 01, 2010, 12:48:06 PM »
Live CNN right now......

Offline edbikerii

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #384 on: April 01, 2010, 01:04:32 PM »
No Iggy, if "we the people" were given a voice on this matter, we would not be talking about this right now.  As I said, there was no public debate, and the student loan changes were sneaked into the healthcare bill.  What part of this don't you understand?  If "we the people" truly supported these changes, then there would have been no need to sneak them in under the guise of healthcare reform.

No, the federal government is not saving a single dime on a program that they should not be involved in at all.  They would save us taxpayers MUCH MORE if they got out of the student loan business altogether.  Any time you're interested in learning about how effective the government is at lending and social engineering, have a look at the "housing bubble", A/K/A the "subprime lending crisis" of 2008, and see that FHA, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were at the very root of the problem because they were "guaranteeing" loans to unqualified borrowers.  Want to talk about "toxic debt" on banks balance sheets due to government incompetence and social engineering?

No, there is no benefit to the US having the highest proportion of college graduates in the world, unless there are actual jobs out there which truly require a quality education, like doctors, medical researchers, engineers, programmers, etc.  Having a cop walk around giving out tickets with $50,000 in education is a total waste of resources that would have been better spent on other students.  That kind of nonsense is nothing more than spinning our wheels and forcing our children into debt needlessly.  Pump out more truly intelligent engineers, and you'll be doing something useful.

As for liberal arts majors, if you want to waste your time studying English Literature that's fine, but don't go wasting my hard-earned tax money doing it.  Buy the damned books (or the Cliff Notes as most college students do) and study it on your own time.

First of all, let's not change the subject, Bobby.  The problem here is that the government sneaked in a bunch of socialist banking takeover measures into a so-called "healthcare reform bill" at the last minute, as part of "amendments" that were supposed to tie in the house bill with the senate bill.  That is sneaky, deceptive, done behind closed doors, and clearly not "transparent".  There was NO PUBLIC DEBATE on these banking measures.

Wow. Just wow.

Government backed loans are there because "we the people" view the education of our populace as a priority for those that want it.

Quote
Public colleges today are more than adequately equipped to educate students who are truly qualified, but they have been saddled with "open admissions" policies and useless liberal arts programs.  Public colleges are inundated with moron freshmen who really have no business taking up space on any college campus.

Again, wow.

Community colleges are there not just for worker retraining but explicitly for those who are truly NOT qualified to go to regular 4 year colleges - but want to. The comment about useless liberal arts programs is just a bonus in that paragraph.

Pell grants are not without requirements for GPA. They aren't just free money.

As I understand it the provision for taking the bank middlemen out of the equation saves a ton of cash and forgiving the loan outright after 10 or 20 years is an encouragement to go get some education. It is, I think, absolutely the correct thing to do if you consider education - liberal or otherwise - an important component of America's economic future.

President Obama said just that in fact, "Today, we’re finally making our student loan system work for students and all of our families,” “We will provide the support necessary for you to complete college and meet a new goal: By 2020, America will once again have the highest proportion of college graduates in the world.”

Do you actually disagree with this? Are you really actually perturbed that it will save $40 billion a year? Or is it that you really feel the banks should profit from administering government guaranteed loans?
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Offline HavocTurbo

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #385 on: April 01, 2010, 01:08:18 PM »
lol I almost lost my drink at that.

I have a degree in Music Ed. Never used it but still.... did I waste my money?

As for liberal arts majors, if you want to waste your time studying English Literature that's fine, but don't go wasting my hard-earned tax money doing it.  Buy the damned books (or the Cliff Notes as most college students do) and study it on your own time.
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Offline ev0lve

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #386 on: April 01, 2010, 01:22:42 PM »
No, there is no benefit to the US having the highest proportion of college graduates in the world, unless there are actual jobs out there which truly require a quality education, like doctors, medical researchers, engineers, programmers, etc.  Having a cop walk around giving out tickets with $50,000 in education is a total waste of resources that would have been better spent on other students.  That kind of nonsense is nothing more than spinning our wheels and forcing our children into debt needlessly.  Pump out more truly intelligent engineers, and you'll be doing something useful.

OK. I hear what you're saying. I think you're absolutely 180º out of whack with where we should go on education and the subsequent benefits our society would reap from artists and engineers alike - not to mention cops - but I don't see a way I could convince you you're in error.

Offline edbikerii

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #387 on: April 01, 2010, 01:36:44 PM »
I could care less what you majored in, as long as the government isn't forcing me to pay for it with my tax money.

lol I almost lost my drink at that.

I have a degree in Music Ed. Never used it but still.... did I waste my money?

As for liberal arts majors, if you want to waste your time studying English Literature that's fine, but don't go wasting my hard-earned tax money doing it.  Buy the damned books (or the Cliff Notes as most college students do) and study it on your own time.
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Offline HavocTurbo

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #388 on: April 01, 2010, 01:57:44 PM »
Uh-oh.... I got a full ride scholarship.... Now yer screwed.  ;D

I thought that paragraph was funny man. Chill out. I'm not arguing with anyone here.


I could care less what you majored in, as long as the government isn't forcing me to pay for it with my tax money.

lol I almost lost my drink at that.

I have a degree in Music Ed. Never used it but still.... did I waste my money?

As for liberal arts majors, if you want to waste your time studying English Literature that's fine, but don't go wasting my hard-earned tax money doing it.  Buy the damned books (or the Cliff Notes as most college students do) and study it on your own time.
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #389 on: April 01, 2010, 02:01:34 PM »
I did not say we don't benefit from artists.  I just believe that once art becomes a "discipline", it is no longer art.  True art comes from passion and creativity that cannot be taught in institutions of higher learning.  I preferred Van Gogh to most of the Dutch Masters, even though I appreciate the Dutch Masters' technical skills.

True creativity is best applied where it will do society some real good.  Most art majors are institutionalized liberal drones who love to think of themselves as creative, but really are not.  They vote in blocks, they dress alike, they speak alike, they attend the same rallies, espouse the same politics.  No real creativity or analytical skills whatsoever.

No, there is no benefit to the US having the highest proportion of college graduates in the world, unless there are actual jobs out there which truly require a quality education, like doctors, medical researchers, engineers, programmers, etc.  Having a cop walk around giving out tickets with $50,000 in education is a total waste of resources that would have been better spent on other students.  That kind of nonsense is nothing more than spinning our wheels and forcing our children into debt needlessly.  Pump out more truly intelligent engineers, and you'll be doing something useful.

OK. I hear what you're saying. I think you're absolutely 180º out of whack with where we should go on education and the subsequent benefits our society would reap from artists and engineers alike - not to mention cops - but I don't see a way I could convince you you're in error.
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Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #390 on: April 01, 2010, 02:21:05 PM »


True creativity is best applied where it will do society some real good.  Most art majors are institutionalized liberal drones who love to think of themselves as creative, but really are not.  They vote in blocks, they dress alike, they speak alike, they attend the same rallies, espouse the same politics.  No real creativity or analytical skills whatsoever.

No, there is no benefit to the US having the highest proportion of college graduates in the world, unless there are actual jobs out there which truly require a quality education, like doctors, medical researchers, engineers, programmers, etc.  Having a cop walk around giving out tickets with $50,000 in education is a total waste of resources that would have been better spent on other students.  That kind of nonsense is nothing more than spinning our wheels and forcing our children into debt needlessly.  Pump out more truly intelligent engineers, and you'll be doing something useful.

OK. I hear what you're saying. I think you're absolutely 180º out of whack with where we should go on education and the subsequent benefits our society would reap from artists and engineers alike - not to mention cops - but I don't see a way I could convince you you're in error.

Much like the conservative drones who love to think of themselves as creative, but really are not?  They vote in blocks, they dress alike, they speak alike, they attend the same rallies, espouse the same politics.  No real creativity or analytical skills whatsoever.  And all listen to Fox News. ;D

Offline Rocking-M

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #391 on: April 01, 2010, 02:39:24 PM »
Just curious, I went to school in the 70's on student loans. They were low interest and paid back.
I wonder how that hurt the tax payers. I'm sure Ed will tell me.
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Offline coldright

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #392 on: April 01, 2010, 03:38:45 PM »
The last time I checked the government was making 5% on my loans. 

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #393 on: April 01, 2010, 03:58:06 PM »
o_O
No.


Offline bucky katt

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #394 on: April 01, 2010, 03:59:56 PM »
o_O

WHAT in the hell is that? reminds me of my brother-in-law
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Offline mlinder

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #395 on: April 01, 2010, 04:00:51 PM »
Some kind of mollusk.

Or a crab.









Or your brother-in-law.
No.


Offline Rocking-M

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #396 on: April 01, 2010, 04:48:09 PM »
Some kind of mollusk.

Or a crab.









Or your brother-in-law.

I say it's the last option.:)
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Offline bucky katt

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #397 on: April 01, 2010, 06:12:01 PM »
Some kind of mollusk.

Or a crab.









Or your brother-in-law.

I say it's the last option.:)

too good looking to be george  :D
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Re: health care bill
« Reply #398 on: April 01, 2010, 06:40:28 PM »
Of course it is a cost-benefit-analysis.

Were those subsidized student loans where the taxpayers paid your interest while you were in school?

Did the taxpayer also pay part of your interest to keep your interest low, or were the lending rates low interest from the bank to start with?

Did you use that education to actually do anything productive that eventually yielded more benefit to the taxpayer than paying for HIS OWN kids' education instead of helping to pay for yours with money that he could have used for his own kids?

Did that education somehow benefit the taxpayer-at-large in ways other than tax revenue?  Did it keep you from being unemployed and/or qualify you to keep others from being unemployed, beyond what anybody else would have done WITHOUT SUBSIDIES, or was it just another vote-buying entitlement scam?

Taxpayer subsidies to private banks kept plenty of intelligent, college-educated bankers employed.  THOSE BANKS HAVE TUITION-REIMBURSEMENT PROGRAMS that pay for their employees' educations.  I know, because I benefitted from TWO separate company's Tuition Reimbursement programs.  You could start out as a bank teller (or in the mailroom, as I did), and then work your way up to the CEO spot, on the company's dime, if you were smart enough and worked hard enough.  I guess most of those folks will be out looking for jobs now, and maybe soaking up some more gub'mint benefits now that the gub'mint has taken over their business and put them all out of work.  If they were attending school for free under their company's Tuition Reimbursement program, I guess they'll just have to kiss Obama's ass and take out student loans until they graduate (and maybe get a job).  Maybe they'll get used to the entitlements and give up productive work altogether (it sure happens more often than welfare recipients seeing the error of their ways and getting a job).  Then they'll most certainly vote democrat for fear of losing their hand-outs.

Just curious, I went to school in the 70's on student loans. They were low interest and paid back.
I wonder how that hurt the tax payers. I'm sure Ed will tell me.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #399 on: April 01, 2010, 06:44:53 PM »
Ed,  I can understand your resentment at what you feel is Government intrusion into life, and that is OK. I sense a a very disturbing jealous and angry streak in your comments. In some way you are mad at the people who elect to go to College for something they wish to pursue, or have a deep interest. These people have the same rights you do, and if they need to finance that Education, they will be liable to pay back the money at interest. At issue here is do these people deserve to be punished by greedy lenders who configure these Loans as they would a subprime note.

You are shocked that a portion of a bill contained another bill. This has been done for decades, Things like Farm subsidies, oil depletion allowance changes, and removing regulation on Banks, all of which was welfare payments to Corporations, were hidden in other Bills. This is how your elected officials slip this stuff past without public scrutiny. In this case something that will benefit the future generations got through. Ed, I gotta tell ya, the kids are the future, you and I are not.

You want smarter more educated Cops, their job is not by rote, it takes judgment to do it well. You also want to attract people who are willing to do more than take a Civil Service test, but actually to go out of their way to achieve something to earn that job.

You are an angry person, and I feel sorry for you. Someone or something caused this anger and it is sad.

 
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