Author Topic: Increase in ethanol content  (Read 10580 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Bob Wessner

  • "Carbs Suck!"
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,079
Increase in ethanol content
« on: June 18, 2010, 01:03:08 PM »
Most U.S. states currently allow up to 10% ethanol in gasoline formulations, Michigan included. I've not noticed any problems with the 10% blend, but it sounds like the EPA may allow this to be increased to 15% in a few months after further testing. Are there likely to be any negative side affects (to components) to our old bikes at 15%?
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline MasterChief750

  • Detonation
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 805
Re: Increase in ethanol content
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2010, 01:06:24 PM »
yes ethanol eats rubber and is corrosive(supposedly) ethanol is a huge problem in the boating industry and the reason i run about 50% pump gas and 50% race gas. ethanol is really hard on vehicles not made to run it.
1978 CB750 K - Project Red Headed Step Child
1976 CB750 K - Drag Bike
Some things i know, others i dont.
I AM THE STIG
Sam is THE STIG
he said i can be STIG3 tho

Offline Gordon

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,114
  • 750K1, 550K2
Re: Increase in ethanol content
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2010, 01:17:19 PM »
One of these days we're all gonna have to start setting up stills in our garages to separate the gasoline from the ethanol. 

There's a gas station not too far from here that still offers pure gasoline.  I haven't hit them up yet, but I've been meaning to just to see if I can tell a difference in how the K1 runs on it.   

Offline weekend_junkie

  • I bet you think I'm some
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 567
  • Member # 15859
Re: Increase in ethanol content
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2010, 01:23:23 PM »
I have an '89 goldwing that states specifically in the manual not to use gasoline with ethanol content higher than 10%.
Dan
2012 Triumph Tiger Explorer / 1981 CB900F / 2002 VFR800 / 1973 CB350F / 1973 CB350F mistake / 1976 CB360T Cafe /1976 CB200 Cafe / 1989 GL1500 w/ sidecar / 1949 IMZ w/ sidecar

Offline Ved

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 66
Re: Increase in ethanol content
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2010, 01:31:49 PM »
Not to mention it's not good on tank coatings... Especially Kreem.
Your a good friend, but if the zombies ever chase us... I'm tripping you...

Offline Gordon

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,114
  • 750K1, 550K2
Re: Increase in ethanol content
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2010, 01:44:30 PM »
Apparently removing ethanol from gas is easier than I originally thought.  Just add water to the gas and the ethanol will saturate itself and drop to the bottom with the remaining water. 

As far as what 15% will do compared to 10%, I think that's one of those things we'll just have to find out the hard way since I doubt there has been much, if any, testing done on older vehicles.  Hopefully, since most rubber/plastic fuel components on our bikes have already been replaced and seem to be handling the current amount of ethanol well, 15% won't make much of a difference. 

Offline Mekun

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 64
Re: Increase in ethanol content
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2010, 01:58:54 PM »
Whatever you do dont leave ethanol gas in your tank for  an extended period. It attracts water into the tank and carbs.
 

Offline Old Scrambler

  • My CB750K3 has been in 39 States & 5 Provinces
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,812
Re: Increase in ethanol content
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2010, 02:00:05 PM »
Actually there is quite a bit of cumbustion engine knowledge regarding elevated levels of alcohol in the gas tank.  Most taxi companies are running 1980s - early 90s motors with a 20% blend after they have replaced the valves and seats as well as updated the gaskets in the throtlte-body injection systems. Red Kote tank liner will apparently handle the higher blends but may need to be replaced or recoated every few years. The brass parts in our carbs should be OK but the gaskets are iffy. Several of the current petroleum brands still offer premium fuel without the alcohol. I don't think it will be a big deal for bikes that are ridden somewhat regularly. A month or more of storage probably means a thorough drain of the fuel-system.
Dennis in Wisconsin
'64 Triumph Cub & '74 Honda CB750 Bonneville Salt Flats AMA Record Holder (6)
CB750 Classic Bonneville Racer thread - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,135473.0.html
'63 CL72 Project(s)
'66 CL77 Red
'67 Triumph T100C
'73 750K3 Owned since New
'77 750F2 Cafe Project
2020 ROYAL ENFIELD Himalayan

Offline MRieck

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,588
  • Big ideas....
Re: Increase in ethanol content
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2010, 02:02:12 PM »
Anybody using Star Tron fuel conditioner?
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline Gaither

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 635
  • '77 CB550F
Re: Increase in ethanol content
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2010, 08:41:18 PM »
Anybody using Star Tron fuel conditioner?

I use Chevron Techron every time I gas up. When I had the carbs done the guy said either avoid ethanol or use techron. He said ethanol tends to degrade o-rings, etc and can leave a coating in the carbs which, over time, can lead to problems. Techron compensates for it. Further, this crap has caused a lot of problems in antique cars.

It is a government-invented boon-doggle! It increases pollutants and CUTS fuel mileage about 10% [which I've measured in both of our cars]. That means we're actually paying [a hidden] 10% MORE for gas that is already priced far too high!

The gov subsidizes construction of the refineries and pays 45 cents/gallon on the junk.
The only winners are corn farmers and the thieves who produce the ethanol. We, the people, are the victims! Take an indepth study of the crap. It is basically a rediculous product.

Over time, it ain't good for our bikes but it takes a while.

Gaither ('77 CB550F)

Offline shizzomynizzo

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 591
  • It's 5 o'clock somewhere
Re: Increase in ethanol content
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2010, 09:11:14 PM »
I don't know about other states, but in Michigan you can still get ethanol free gas at all the shells that I have come across. I go out of the way to fill up when I see a shell.
1974 CB550
1985 XLX Last of the IH
2001 Street Glide

Offline swellguy

  • An electric cattle prod is a
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 579
  • Divorce is so expensive because it's worth it.
    • http://ksphotos.com
Re: Increase in ethanol content
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2010, 09:14:17 PM »
Ethanol burns at a higher flash point so air cooled engines get and run hotter when using ethanol blends. Gasoline, to a certain extent, is water soluble so moisture can be absorbed and burned off during combustion. Ethanol is not water soluble so moisture - at least at the microscopic level - can build up inside the combustion chamber. It also robs an engine of power and lowers fuel economy.
It's not a good thing. It's also not sensible to turn food into fuel when parts of the world are starving.
This project started in confusion and will end in disarray.
--
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=76471.msg852227#msg852227

Offline Gaither

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 635
  • '77 CB550F
Re: Increase in ethanol content
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2010, 09:22:06 PM »
Right, Swellguy. And, our government has wasted and is wasting billions just to cram this crap down our throats!!!! They do so while knowing it is junk!
Gaither ('77 CB550F)

Offline Kevin400F

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 600
Re: Increase in ethanol content
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2010, 11:21:11 AM »
Swellguy, run your comment by us again....."ethanol is not water soluable".  It sounds like what you're saying is that if you put water into ethanol it doesn't mix or "dissolve".   Hmm....  I thought ethanol and water were 100% miscible....meaning they'll mix completely in all proportions.

Offline swellguy

  • An electric cattle prod is a
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 579
  • Divorce is so expensive because it's worth it.
    • http://ksphotos.com
Re: Increase in ethanol content
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2010, 11:58:18 AM »
Swellguy, run your comment by us again....."ethanol is not water soluable".  It sounds like what you're saying is that if you put water into ethanol it doesn't mix or "dissolve".   Hmm....  I thought ethanol and water were 100% miscible....meaning they'll mix completely in all proportions.
I am not a chemist but my recently deceased father was. Our family has a background in agriculture and corn production. Years ago various governments handed out tons of money to companies to setup up ethanol production facilities. My dad did a fair bit of research into the actual mechanics of ethanol combustion and the possible ill effects it might have on internal combustion engines. I tried in my brief post to capture the essence of one of his concerns.
Let me dig around for some of the abstracts. Like all published papers it was open to peer review and criticism but what he said made sense to me at least. Sadly, I just can't call him up right now.
This project started in confusion and will end in disarray.
--
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=76471.msg852227#msg852227

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: Increase in ethanol content
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2010, 12:24:52 PM »
Ethanol burns at a higher flash point so air cooled engines get and run hotter when using ethanol blends.
The flash point is not the burn temp. and ethanol has a lower energy content than gasoline.  It burns cooler than gasoline in I.C. engines.  This is part of the reason why many auto racing events mandate the use of ethanol or methanol.  It is harder to ignite and burns cooler when accidents happen.  Air cooled motors need less fin area to cool them when fueled by alcohol. [/quote]

Gasoline, to a certain extent, is water soluble so moisture can be absorbed and burned off during combustion. Ethanol is not water soluble so moisture - at least at the microscopic level - can build up inside the combustion chamber. It also robs an engine of power and lowers fuel economy.

You have this concept exactly backwards.  Gasoline floats on top of water and does not distribute unless agitated. It does not form a solution.
Go to any bar and you'll see myriad examples of alcohol (ethanol) being mixed and served to customers.  Scotch and water, for example, forms a solution and will not separate without distillation.   Perhaps you are confusing a solution (non-molecular blending) with a reaction which is on a molecular level?

It's not a good thing. It's also not sensible to turn food into fuel when parts of the world are starving.
I do agree that ethanol is not good for our fuel systems.  It is only just tolerable, as long at their is constant use and replacement in our bikes.

From:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_fuel
Methanol and ethanol contain soluble and insoluble contaminants [3]. Halide ions, which are soluble contaminants, such as chloride ions, have a large effect on the corrosivity of alcohol fuels. Halide ions increase corrosion in two ways: they chemically attack passivating oxide films on several metals causing pitting corrosion, and they increase the conductivity of the fuel. Increased electrical conductivity promotes electrical, galvanic and ordinary corrosion in the fuel system. Soluble contaminants such as aluminum hydroxide, itself a product of corrosion by halide ions, clogs the fuel system over time. To prevent corrosion the fuel system must be made of suitable materials, electrical wires must be properly insulated and the fuel level sensor must be of pulse and hold type (or similar). In addition, high quality alcohol should have a low concentration of contaminants and have a suitable corrosion inhibitor added.

Methanol and ethanol are also incompatible with some polymers. The alcohol is solved by the polymers causing swelling, and over time the oxygen breaks down the carbon-carbon bonds in the polymer causing a reduction in tensile strength. For the past few decades though, most cars have been designed to tolerate up to 10% ethanol (E10) without problem. This include both fuel system compatibility and lambda compensation of fuel delivery with fuel injection engines featuring closed loop lambda control. In some engines ethanol may degrade some compositions of plastic or rubber fuel delivery components designed for conventional petrol, and also be unable to lambda compensate the fuel properly.


The introduction of alcohol into society is largely from political stimulus rather than scientific.  It plays into the planed obsolescence plans by government and corporate industry working in concert to force the retiring or replacement of existing vehicles.  They will be allowed to do this because the owners of these older vehicles are a minority faction, complacent, or uneducated about the fuel they use.

In California, the state mandated that ALL auto fuel be contaminated with alcohol.  If older cars need more repair, the state receives extra income on parts and labor (taxes) from the repair.  If the owner replaces with a newer vehicle, then higher taxes and fees are also received by the state. The later also supports the auto dealerships who pay business license fees and employ people who pay income taxes to state and local governments.
The state also gets a per gallon tax on the fuel.  Alcohol blending mandates that more gallons will be used by all vehicles and results in more tax revenue collected by the state.

It is for these reasons why alcohol is being injected into public consumption.  All the while being supported by "environmentalists", as alcohol use in I.C. engines does produce a slightly less toxic exhaust signature, particularly CO2, which the public has been conditioned to accept is worthwhile at whatever the cost, including making larger, more powerful governments and lobby groups.

IMHO, of course.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline redharanguer

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Re: Increase in ethanol content
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2010, 12:39:34 PM »
One thing to remember is that when Brazil went to 100% ethanol in the '80s, Honda had to make the heads and cylinders out of steel to avoid the corrosive effect of the ethanol on the aluminum alloy. 

Offline Don R

  • My Sandcast is a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 20,154
  • Saver of unloved motorcycles.
Re: Increase in ethanol content
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2010, 08:23:28 PM »
I read here that alcohol makes engines run hotter. That is not the case in any of the race engines I have been around. You need a much larger amount of alky to extract the same energy as gas and the engines run cooler. Many alky drag racers use an idle system to run gas until the engines are up to temperature or employ a lean-out valve which is just a controlled manifold leak.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
 CEO at the no kill motorcycle shop.
 You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Offline Gonzowerke

  • I burn asses like a Bhut Jolokia, 'cause I'm a real
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 360
  • Member #106, Owner of the ORIGINAL Frankenbike!
Re: Increase in ethanol content
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2010, 08:49:30 AM »
I'm wondering how the plastic floats will stand up to it, and the sump strainer in the tank. Carb boots will take a hit too.
1977 F2 "Highway Star"
1977 F2 "Bike-In-A-Box"
1978 K8 "Frankenbike"
1991 CRX Si "Buzz Bomb"
2000 Jeep Wrangler "UBoat"
2011 BMW S1000RR "TIE Fighter"

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,015
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Increase in ethanol content
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2010, 09:01:37 AM »
I do agree that ethanol is not good for our fuel systems.  It is only just tolerable, as long at their is constant use and replacement in our bikes.

The introduction of alcohol into society is largely from political stimulus rather than scientific.  It plays into the planed obsolescence plans by government and corporate industry working in concert to force the retiring or replacement of existing vehicles.  They will be allowed to do this because the owners of these older vehicles are a minority faction, complacent, or uneducated about the fuel they use.

In California, the state mandated that ALL auto fuel be contaminated with alcohol.  If older cars need more repair, the state receives extra income on parts and labor (taxes) from the repair.  If the owner replaces with a newer vehicle, then higher taxes and fees are also received by the state. The later also supports the auto dealerships who pay business license fees and employ people who pay income taxes to state and local governments.
The state also gets a per gallon tax on the fuel.  Alcohol blending mandates that more gallons will be used by all vehicles and results in more tax revenue collected by the state.

It is for these reasons why alcohol is being injected into public consumption.  All the while being supported by "environmentalists", as alcohol use in I.C. engines does produce a slightly less toxic exhaust signature, particularly CO2, which the public has been conditioned to accept is worthwhile at whatever the cost, including making larger, more powerful governments and lobby groups.

IMHO, of course.



Good opinion!
You did miss one 'stimulus' to use alcohol (in the engines...  ;)  ), though: the EPA mandates it for "cleaner air". In a 10% blend, it supposedly reduces hydrocarbon emissions 8% at the tailpipe, but since it also reduces MPG by 20% (at least, here in Colorado, it does), that means you also emit 20% MORE total emissions, resulting in a less increase of 12% more polluted air - in real-world, mathematical terms. Of course, those terms mean nothing to a government that can't add...
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,015
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Increase in ethanol content
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2010, 09:23:04 AM »
Most U.S. states currently allow up to 10% ethanol in gasoline formulations, Michigan included. I've not noticed any problems with the 10% blend, but it sounds like the EPA may allow this to be increased to 15% in a few months after further testing. Are there likely to be any negative side affects (to components) to our old bikes at 15%?

The only side effects that I can think of, besides the reduced HP this fuel will bring (and resulting lower MPG) are [potentiall] increased wear on the valve seats and more-easily rusted gas tanks and mufflers: see comments below. There's nothing else in these engines that will be affected.

The valve seats in these engines are fairly soft, which has been their saving grace. When fuel went unleaded, Ford led the charge to VERY hard valve seat inserts, which the rest of Detroit took up (starting in 1969). Detroit engines with pushrods all spin the valve a partial turn on each opening, so as to help clean the seats: this needs lubrication or else the valve grinds itself into the seat over time. Honda took a different tack: they installed Stellite exhaust valves in the 350 twins, then the 750 and all the SOHC4 bikes, while stopping the rotation of their valves altogether. By installing soft valve seats, the crud that Detroit grinds away ends up slightly embedded in the Honda seats, instead. When the engine gets hot enough, it burns these deposits off (this burnoff is not possible in a water-cooled engine, BTW). After many miles of this activity, some pitting can occur that leaks across the seat area, and the valves leak. (This is why I added Honda's old "Valve Maintenance Rules" in the Appendix of my book. This was considered 'normal maintenance' in the day.  ;) )  Increased alcohol in the fuel will lower the combustion temperatures, which just means you have to ride further to burn off those deposits...

The alcohol draws moisture out of the air and it turns into water in the lower parts of the gas tank. Water has a strong affinity for the uncoated steel in the tanks, so it tends to rust the surfaces that are not covered with fuel. Since gas itself is really oil, it prevents rust if the steel is wetted with it. So, when storing these tanks, I always fill them all the way up, then drain the system from the float bowls in the Spring, to remove the water at the bottom. And, once each week I go to the petcock and open it up to refill the bowls. This tends to keep the water out of the tank itself, and keeps the fuel from crystallizing in the bowls: this is called "wet storage" and  works well. If you drain the tank, you must also coat the inside with oil spray (CRC is good, WD40 only sort of good, as it draws water, too).

When alcohol burns, it produces the water vapor that it absorbed. This puts the moisture into the exhaust system. This again means that you must ride far enough to heat up the whole pipe(s) so as to burn off the water....

When viewed conspiratorially, it does appear that the [corrupt] powers that be are trying to push older vehicles off the road. When viewed politically (as in, 'follow the money'), it is much simpler and a little more accurate: during the last election, the current crop of Dems promised farmers in Iowa and other corn-growing states that they would increase the required amount of ethanol in gasoline to support their corn. They also promised the UAW that they would mandate people to buy more of their cars. The Repubs declared that increasing the ethanol would be hard on refineries (it is) and people's pocketbooks, because of reduced MPG (yah), so they did not support the idea. 'Nuff said?


See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Duke McDukiedook

  • Space Force 6 Star General
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,690
  • Wish? Did somebody say wish?
Re: Increase in ethanol content
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2010, 09:27:48 AM »
One of these days we're all gonna have to start setting up stills in our garages to separate the gasoline from the ethanol.  

There's a gas station not too far from here that still offers pure gasoline.  I haven't hit them up yet, but I've been meaning to just to see if I can tell a difference in how the K1 runs on it.  

Not much longer, we have a guy out here that sells by that claim.

The refiners and distributors are forcing him to sell watered down corn gas just like they probably will your dude.

What a #$%*ing joke, all this does is make people emit more NOX's instead of COX's.

Typical number shuffling EPA bull#$%*, who do they think they are kidding?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 09:30:44 AM by Dukiedook »
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen. The gods will not save you." Ervin Burrell

CB750 K3 crat | (2) 1986 VFR750F

Offline Johnie

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,617
Re: Increase in ethanol content
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2010, 09:28:49 AM »
I just checked at our local Shell since another member said they had ethanol free gas. Sure enough here in WI I found it at our Shell, but it is only available in the 93 octane. Is that to high octane for these 750's?
1970 CB750K0 - Candy Ruby Red
1973 CB750K3 - Candy Bacchus Olive or Sunflake Orange
1970 Chevy Chevelle SS396 - Cortez Silver
1976 GL1000 Sulphur Yellow

Oshkosh, WI  USA

Offline Duke McDukiedook

  • Space Force 6 Star General
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,690
  • Wish? Did somebody say wish?
Re: Increase in ethanol content
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2010, 09:34:38 AM »
Odds are you would have to retard your ignition timing for the slower burn.

Dammit, this really chafes me, also consider the corporate farm lobby that finds yet another way to drive up corn future prices and our dependence on king corn- the worst environmentally friendly crop a farmer could possibly grow.

The govt. should be subsidizing fresh fruits and vegetables, hemp and switchgrass,  not corn.  :(
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen. The gods will not save you." Ervin Burrell

CB750 K3 crat | (2) 1986 VFR750F

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: Increase in ethanol content
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2010, 11:04:36 AM »
I just checked at our local Shell since another member said they had ethanol free gas. Sure enough here in WI I found it at our Shell, but it is only available in the 93 octane. Is that to high octane for these 750's?
The higher the octane, the harder it is for the fuel to light off.  It has the same energy content a regular grade gasoline.  With a higher octane, you should be able to *advance* the timing without fear of ping or preignition knock.

Higher octane (than required by the engine) can lead to increased deposits in the chamber.  However, I  would expect that the higher burn temps of gas without alcohol might negate the buildup in this case. 

Prognostication.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.