Topic: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!

[danfr]

4. Add sealant around the whole cam chain tunnel. Honda did: I'm sure it was important!

Are you using Permatex no.2? The same stuff as what you use with the pucks under the cam tower?

I was considering spraying the whole head gasket down with Copper Spray a Gasket, but am open to a different approach if you have found a better solution.

Oh, and I'll PM you for a set of those o-rings for my K4.

Thanks
Dan

Yeah, their non-hardening stuff. I really wish I could find some FelCoBond, but they don't sell it around here anymore. That stuff was excellent for this task, especially on the old CB/CL72/77 engines which had nothing sealing these passages but the head gasket. They often leaked, more than a little. It strongly resembled rubber cement, but was oil- and gas-proof.

Thanks Mark. I love the finish of your valve cover by the way.

Couple more questions. Did you add sealant to both sides of the gasket? Anything on the base gasket? I don't want to make any assumptions and be caught with a leaky head gasket. I'd like to install the head and base gaskets with your method as I'm sure it has worked well for 100's of leak free CB750's.

[HondaMan]

4. Add sealant around the whole cam chain tunnel. Honda did: I'm sure it was important!

Are you using Permatex no.2? The same stuff as what you use with the pucks under the cam tower?

I was considering spraying the whole head gasket down with Copper Spray a Gasket, but am open to a different approach if you have found a better solution.

Oh, and I'll PM you for a set of those o-rings for my K4.

Thanks
Dan

Yeah, their non-hardening stuff. I really wish I could find some FelCoBond, but they don't sell it around here anymore. That stuff was excellent for this task, especially on the old CB/CL72/77 engines which had nothing sealing these passages but the head gasket. They often leaked, more than a little. It strongly resembled rubber cement, but was oil- and gas-proof.

Thanks Mark. I love the finish of your valve cover by the way.

Couple more questions. Did you add sealant to both sides of the gasket? Anything on the base gasket? I don't want to make any assumptions and be caught with a leaky head gasket. I'd like to install the head and base gaskets with your method as I'm sure it has worked well for 100's of leak free CB750's.

On the base gasket, I usually only dab some around the big drain holes. The crankcase pressures there are about the highest in the engine, so I usually add a thin coat of Hondabond on both sides right there, and close it quick to make it thin. This is hard to do: the rings must already be in the cylinders, so you don't have much working room. I use a little paintbrush or acid brush, usually, to apply it.

The cam cover: this is a problematic one, over time. The head expands a LOT more than this cover, so the gasket must seal between moving surfaces. This is why they often weep a tiny bit over time, but are easy to clean at the carwash. Honda's cam cover gaskets has the rubber-y looking stuff on just the bottom side of this gasket. I often find them either pulled inside or nearly so, at the short straight corner sections where the gasket is narrow and the expansion is greatest. Making the cam cover screws into Allen Head type makes the creeping worse because it is too easy to overtighten those, forcing the gasket to make up all the travel difference.

I've used various goo here over the years: when Hondabond came in one type only (no #1, #2, #3, #4), it worked well here. When I tried using the #4, which is used for the split cases, it gets hard over time and then does not seal after it cracks off in little bits. I find it next to the valve springs, in little chunks. Since this area can reach over 325 degrees, the Permatex non-hardening has a tough time staying pliable, and the "Versa" stuff sold in many stores today in lieu of the #2 Permatex does not seal very well after a year or so, here.

So, I am doing no sealant at all, lately. The oil will swell the gasket a little bit on the inside edge, which will help the seal, but the weep will continue. I think this will at least keep the gasket from slipping all the way out of the surface.

The Athena gaskets don't seal the cam cover for beans. They are much too thin. This is one place where a thicker gasket is very important! I know of one rider who recently glued 2 of these gaskets together with non-hardening stuff, then installed: I'm waiting and watching to see how that runs out. It might be a good idea!

[HondaMan]

Hi Mark,
I really love all of the little history bits you work into your rebuild.  Of course I had to run out to the garage and check my K2 cam cover.... no recess, so old factory.  (for trivia sake, where was the "old factory" located?) 

I've heard it was in Hokaido, but I really don't know for sure? I just know their product by its 'witness', so to speak. There is a good historian here at SOHC4 who does know that: I e-mailed back and forth with him a few times after finding his posts in the Tech section some years back. It may still be there, somewhere?

I do know the TEC products are from Tokyo Electric Corporation, the Daiichi parts are from the Daiichi region (now trying to recover from the massive tsunami and earthquake there), parts which include(d) the pipes, fenders, some of the wheel rims, and other chromed stuff like that. Hitachi has plants all over Japan and Philippines, they made a lot of the electrical parts, too.

[HondaMan]

I went back and posted the starter picture on Page 10, forgot it yesterday! 

Painted the lower frame today, in the dark. Painting Black in the dark always has amusing results the next day. 

Everything is ready to put the motive power back in the cradle when the paint hardens up, maybe tomorrow? Can't wait much longer...Good thing it's been raining 20 days and nights, or I'd miss the riding. We're at 4.7" rain since Sept.1, nearly 5 times the normal amount! The poor folks in the Thompson River drainage (Estes Park, down thru Lyons, out to Loveland, Brighton and other points east) are hardest hit, as 11 earth dams and diverters have broken from Rocky Mountain Park down thru that whole area, wiping out almost 1800 houses known so far. We ran as a drought since January, had watering restrictions all summer, dead lawns, trees, fires everywhere...now this! Wow.

I saw more animals walking in twos yesterday...

[MCRider]

I went back and posted the starter picture on Page 10, forgot it yesterday! 

Painted the lower frame today, in the dark. Painting Black in the dark always has amusing results the next day. 

Everything is ready to put the motive power back in the cradle when the paint hardens up, maybe tomorrow? Can't wait much longer...Good thing it's been raining 20 days and nights, or I'd miss the riding. We're at 4.7" rain since Sept.1, nearly 5 times the normal amount! The poor folks in the Thompson River drainage (Estes Park, down thru Lyons, out to Loveland, Brighton and other points east) are hardest hit, as 11 earth dams and diverters have broken from Rocky Mountain Park down thru that whole area, wiping out almost 1800 houses known so far. We ran as a drought since January, had watering restrictions all summer, dead lawns, trees, fires everywhere...now this! Wow.

I saw more animals walking in twos yesterday...

I've been up and down that road by Thompson River to Estes Park twice, once on my Hawk and once on the FJR. Great ride. I can only picture in my mind the washouts from the few media pictures I've seen. Multiple sections of the road are gone leaving great gouges?

Michael Parks of Then Came Bronson fame sang a song called "Big T Water" on one of his albums.

[RAFster122s]

...11 earth dams and diverters have broken from Rocky Mountain Park down thru that whole area, wiping out almost 1800 houses known so far. We ran as a drought since January, had watering restrictions all summer, dead lawns, trees, fires everywhere...now this! Wow.

I saw more animals walking in twos yesterday...

Don't worry, God promised he was not going to flood the Whole Earth again after the last time.
Just feels like it sometimes. Rain that goes on for weeks and flooding is just miserable stuff to deal with I think. I have dealt with flooding ina house and it is no fun. Fortunately it was in the basement and the drywall only got a little wet along the bottom and it didn't require replacement. Dealing with the carpet and all the stuff that was stacked on the floor that got wet was bad enough.
Friend in Sierra Vista was a reliefcoordinator in Eagle Pass TX after their flooding late this summer. He sent me a photo of a house with a water stain inside the house over 5 feet up the wall. The house was going to have to have the drywall completely removed and replaced along with all insulation in walls and all electrical outlets replaced and any electrical connections disconnected, cleaned and new wirenuts if any were used.

[HondaMan]

I went back and posted the starter picture on Page 10, forgot it yesterday! 

Painted the lower frame today, in the dark. Painting Black in the dark always has amusing results the next day. 

Everything is ready to put the motive power back in the cradle when the paint hardens up, maybe tomorrow? Can't wait much longer...Good thing it's been raining 20 days and nights, or I'd miss the riding. We're at 4.7" rain since Sept.1, nearly 5 times the normal amount! The poor folks in the Thompson River drainage (Estes Park, down thru Lyons, out to Loveland, Brighton and other points east) are hardest hit, as 11 earth dams and diverters have broken from Rocky Mountain Park down thru that whole area, wiping out almost 1800 houses known so far. We ran as a drought since January, had watering restrictions all summer, dead lawns, trees, fires everywhere...now this! Wow.

I saw more animals walking in twos yesterday...

I've been up and down that road by Thompson River to Estes Park twice, once on my Hawk and once on the FJR. Great ride. I can only picture in my mind the washouts from the few media pictures I've seen. Multiple sections of the road are gone leaving great gouges?

Michael Parks of Then Came Bronson fame sang a song called "Big T Water" on one of his albums.

In the August 1974 Big Thompson flood, I lost 3 good friends who drowned when they got hit with a wall of water just as they passed over the lower Narrows Bridge. It took their car off the bridge, which broke through the cement side of it and weakened it enough that some following rolling boulders then took out the bridge. Three of the 4 in the car died, the last one lived to tell the story. That low-to-the-water bridge was hastily rebuilt for tourists by the next year: then in 1976 the bigger Big Thompson flood took it out, and much of the lower road in the Narrows. After that it was closed for almost 2 years (except some 1-lane traffic on occasion) while they built the higher, stronger, well-above-the-water road and Narrows Bridge it has (had?) now. I haven't yet seen what happened this time, will probably go take a look after a while to see. The older, lower road was right next to the water most of the way: the newer one was about 20 feet above it and made it hard to see water at all unless you were on a bike.

[HondaMan]

Woohoo! Engine's back in its cradle! 

My old engine [minor] mount bolts are in bad shape, though. Honda has quit carrying the old JIS head and thread types: those were 12mm heads on 8mm bolts and 14mm heads on 10mm bolts, which fits the Toll Kit in the bike. The ISO standards today usually have 13mm heads on 8mm bolts and can have 14, 15, or 16mm heads on 10mm bolts. So this means I have to squeeze a 13mm and [whatever the ISO head will be] wrench into the toolkit now. Bummer...

I have stripped the nuts on the 8mm bolts pretty badly and distorted the bolt threads a lot from all the engine removals in years past. This time, I can't even start these threads back together! This has come about from the days past of racing: I've long had 2 of the steel triangle plates on the front right mount, for the extra frame strength it adds. So, it's really not Honda's fault, just my abuse. 

If I can find some high-strength stainless this time, maybe I'll use those? They get mighty wet and dirty up there, parting the wind and rain. And mud. Chrome is not my 'style', but stainless would be OK for me. Overtorqued, much-removed chrome bolts usually end up peeling their plating off in relatively short time, and as expensive as they are ($4 for one 8x60 bolt!), I don't think so...I already spent my lunch money this week on the cam cover screws! 

[anders288]

        http://www.probolt-usa.com/home

[RAFster122s]

Anders, I think Hondaman is going to find the SS bolts a surprise if ProBolt prices are any indication.

[70CB750]

Mcmaster Carr has better prices, but they get you on shipping.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#metric-hex-head-cap-screws/=okp5pf

Still, it is easier to buy online than scout local stores for what you need.

Hmm, take that back, it is better to scout local stores if you are riding.

[MoMo]

My local True Value actually has some metric stainless and chrome nuts and bolts...Larry

[anders288]

   I think He is looking  for JIS bolts Japanese Industrial Standard not DIN bolts German Institute for Standardization like they have in most
hardware stores. 8mm bolts with 13mm heads

[MRieck]

The cyclex foam/metal core cam cover gasket does not leak. It fits  perfectly too

[HondaMan]

The cyclex foam/metal core cam cover gasket does not leak. It fits  perfectly too

Thanks, M!

If this one leaks, I'll look into that. It began leaking after the 2011 July 14 mega-storm we had that packed the engine front full of solid pea-sized hail, driven by 200+ MPH winds. I guess the sudden application of ice on a 90 degree night made things creep a little too fast? It cracked the gasket halfway through at the thin spot on the right side. Then it acted like a capillary, pulling oil out every time the cover had fresh oil while running. The other fins didn't appreciate it, either: rather like someone dropping ice down your shirt?

[HondaMan]

   I think He is looking  for JIS bolts Japanese Industrial Standard not DIN bolts German Institute for Standardization like they have in most
hardware stores. 8mm bolts with 13mm heads

I would sure prefer that: hard to find. Honda does not even carry them anymore: if you get their modern replacement, it is DIN but with matching "fine" threads to the old JIS versions.

I found some extra-strength flange bolts in 60mm, standard thread, which should fit OK considering that I have the extra 3mm thick steel plate there, too. The nuts were always one thread short of full, before, on the 57mm long stock bolts. With the flanged head, these can take an extra 5-8 ft-lbs without losing threads, as they are a harder grade. I guess that's worth something for the trade-off? I got matching stainless nuts in the DIN thread, which will be the weaker link of the 2 parts, but they are 1mm thicker than the OEM nuts, too, for about the same number of threads as the old fine-pitch bolts. The whole stack-up should come out dead even, which might look nice, hanging out there in the front like they do.

[HondaMan]

Well, a nice solution presented itself: stainless flange bolts in +3mm length, with an extra SS flat washer and 2 nice SS acorn nuts for everyone to see!

But, a different, and gnarly, problem popped up: the nut on the top rear engine bolt has lost its threads! I think this engine has been out more than 12 times, now, so I shouldn't be too surprised, I guess? The front bolts had distorted threads, the nuts were maligned flat on their faces, and now this poor thing... Trouble is: this is a JIS fine-thread bolt, which I have to go look up: it is not the 1.50mm coarse thread, nor the 1.25mm DIN pitch, nor the DIN 0.8mm "fine thread", which I also have in SS nuts. Hmm.. I gotta find a thread gage to see what it is! It might be 10x1.00mm?

Rats. I almost had the engine sewed back in...

But, the front mount looks nice, even in the dark! 

[MCRider]

I always wondered why the motor mounts threads were all different. Still don't know why I guess. But your discussion of them is interesting.

Front mount looks cool. All CBs have to have some cap nuts on them somewhere!   

[Nic]

I always wondered why the motor mounts threads were all different. Still don't know why I guess. But your discussion of them is interesting.

Front mount looks cool. All CBs have to have some cap nuts on them somewhere!   

The more torque on a nut/bolt the finer the thread should be, good example would be the rear axle and the alt rotor threads. Pretty sure that 10mil nut thread is 1mil.

[HondaMan]

I always wondered why the motor mounts threads were all different. Still don't know why I guess. But your discussion of them is interesting.

Front mount looks cool. All CBs have to have some cap nuts on them somewhere!   

The more torque on a nut/bolt the finer the thread should be, good example would be the rear axle and the alt rotor threads. Pretty sure that 10mil nut thread is 1mil.

It could be: the DIN standard jump from 1.50mm to 0.8mm threads. The older JIS was similar to your description. Honda still has the part number, so I ordered some: will see soon if they are right!

[HondaMan]

My oil hoses look more than a little frayed (pix soon). They are a light grey color, too! Lots of miles, heat, and washes on them. I'm making new ones, but I had to buy 10 feet of hose to get 2. Maybe I'll make some extras: I have some leaking ones that need repair, anyway. Anyone else want new hoses?

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

How are you making them and what material?

[Greggo]

I may have some old hoses if you need the fittings.

[Stev-o]

How are you making them and what material?

+1  May be interested if they are SS.

[70CB750]

How are you making them and what material?

+1  May be interested if they are SS.

Ricky Racer makes better ones, he ships them overseas for the cramping and what  not, real kafe, man!

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=125895.0