Author Topic: health care bill  (Read 38730 times)

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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #100 on: March 23, 2010, 03:42:00 PM »
what is the single payer system?

A single healthcare system funded and administered similarly to Medicare.

just what we need >:( >:( >:(

Don't panic, not part of this legislation as far as I know. ;)
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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #101 on: March 23, 2010, 05:19:09 PM »
Hey Bobby, that's my article in Fear Whitey.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 05:20:56 PM by Dukiedook »
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #102 on: March 23, 2010, 05:52:29 PM »
So, why do I get the feeling that the insurance industry just got a big Government handout similar to the banking institutions and auto industry?
"Here you go, 30 million new customers paying premiums.  Do we get bigger campaign contributions now?"

...And that this country has taken yet another step towards economic slavery for their vast population base?

Is the only thing people can see a free handout?  Hey, I get medical insurance now even if I don't work to get it!

Can't wait to see the big profit gains the insurance industry will post in a few years, making the oil companies, banking sector, and auto industries jealous.  Hm, maybe there is a stock opportunity that wall street can profit on as well?

Depressed, I am. 



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Offline GammaFlat

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #103 on: March 23, 2010, 06:02:10 PM »
It is one of my largest gripes that all of the cable media (save one outlet) is horrifying slanted in their political views.  No wonder the "one outlet" has more prime time viewership by over 4 times the next closest competitor.  Oh the horror of the nuclear option... now silence.  

Oh no. You didn't just insinuate that Fox News is unbiased, did you?

Hey they are fair and balanced! Balanced like a fat guy on a teeter totter with a little kid. The problem with Fox is that, and they don't really announce this so most of their viewers don't even know, that 90% of their programming is OPINION SHOWS!

Here is a perfect example of the confuse and scare tactics.  GammaFlat confuses Reconciliation and the Nuclear Option.  Another example of how watching Fox can make you ill informed.

I'm not sure what you mean.  The nuclear option was used to pass the health care bill.  A simple majority as opposed to a 2/3rds normally used for bills of this magnitude.  Now we don't hear much about the nuclear option but we did when the Republicans talked about doing it - (oh the horror).  That was my point.  Please "un-ill inform" me. 
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #104 on: March 23, 2010, 06:05:26 PM »
So, why do I get the feeling that the insurance industry just got a big Government handout similar to the banking institutions and auto industry?
"Here you go, 30 million new customers paying premiums.  Do we get bigger campaign contributions now?"

...And that this country has taken yet another step towards economic slavery for their vast population base?

Is the only thing people can see a free handout?  Hey, I get medical insurance now even if I don't work to get it!

Can't wait to see the big profit gains the insurance industry will post in a few years, making the oil companies, banking sector, and auto industries jealous.  Hm, maybe there is a stock opportunity that wall street can profit on as well?

Depressed, I am. 




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Offline MRieck

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #105 on: March 23, 2010, 08:24:44 PM »
So, why do I get the feeling that the insurance industry just got a big Government handout similar to the banking institutions and auto industry?
"Here you go, 30 million new customers paying premiums.  Do we get bigger campaign contributions now?"

...And that this country has taken yet another step towards economic slavery for their vast population base?

Is the only thing people can see a free handout?  Hey, I get medical insurance now even if I don't work to get it!

Can't wait to see the big profit gains the insurance industry will post in a few years, making the oil companies, banking sector, and auto industries jealous.  Hm, maybe there is a stock opportunity that wall street can profit on as well?

Depressed, I am. 


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Offline MRieck

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #106 on: March 23, 2010, 08:26:27 PM »
I believe the ultimate goal of this bill is to establish a single payer system. If the current plan (whatever it truly is) is successful Democrats ( after all ...it is their bill) will point to that success and say it can be even better with single payer. If the system turns out to be fiscal black hole Democrats will point to the single payer system as a cure. Disingenuous but that is how politics work. I have personally heard 3 democrats from Massachusetts say single payer is their ultimate objective.
You are probably correct Mike about the ultimate goal. You are 100% correct about how Politicians operate.
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Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #107 on: March 23, 2010, 11:47:34 PM »
It is one of my largest gripes that all of the cable media (save one outlet) is horrifying slanted in their political views.  No wonder the "one outlet" has more prime time viewership by over 4 times the next closest competitor.  Oh the horror of the nuclear option... now silence.  

Oh no. You didn't just insinuate that Fox News is unbiased, did you?

Hey they are fair and balanced! Balanced like a fat guy on a teeter totter with a little kid. The problem with Fox is that, and they don't really announce this so most of their viewers don't even know, that 90% of their programming is OPINION SHOWS!

Here is a perfect example of the confuse and scare tactics.  GammaFlat confuses Reconciliation and the Nuclear Option.  Another example of how watching Fox can make you ill informed.

I'm not sure what you mean.  The nuclear option was used to pass the health care bill.  A simple majority as opposed to a 2/3rds normally used for bills of this magnitude.  Now we don't hear much about the nuclear option but we did when the Republicans talked about doing it - (oh the horror).  That was my point.  Please "un-ill inform" me.  

OK I will try one more time.  The Nuclear Option was not used(it's a nickname as it is properly known as the Constitution Option).

 The 2/3rds is needed for veto over rides, treaty ratification, amendments to the Constitution, possibly rules changes in the Senate.  There may be a few others as I am no expert on the minutia of Senate rules but these are the main ones that require 2/3rds.  The only reason you need 60 votes in the Senate is to break the filibuster.  Bills can be passed with 51 if the opposition decided not to filibuster.  Did you read the earlier explanation of what Reconciliation and the Nuclear Option are?  I am not going to repeat it but will say one more time they are two different things.  The Nuclear Option does away with the filibuster and to my knowledge it has not been used in recent times if at all.  It is the threat to use it that both sides have used to confirm Judicial nominees for the most part.  That is why both sides scream bloody murder when one sides raises the threat but in reality they both don't have the nerve to go through with it.  It's all political theater. If the Nuclear Option was used to pass the health care bill we would no longer have the filibuster.  As far as my knowledge goes the filibuster is still in place or did I miss something?

The Health Care Bill was passed by a majority in the House and by a super majority(60) in the Senate.  The bills were different in some ways as they almost always are.  They then negotiate these differences and the both Houses vote on the bill one more time and it becomes law after the the President signs it.  Before the second vote took place the election of Scott Brown derailed this process as the filibuster proof majority in the Senate was lost.  So the House passed the Senate version of the bill without changes which then does not require the Senate to re-vote on it.  The changes to the Senate version that the House wanted will then be passed by Reconciliation.  This process has limitations which I explained in an earlier post. The Senate then only has to vote on the changes made through Reconciliation and these changes are not subject to the filibuster and can be passed with 51 votes. This process is perfectly within the precedent and legal framework of both Houses and has been used by both parties in the past.  In fact 17 of 23 times since 1980 have been by Republicans.  There is nothing unlawful or underhanded about it.  So in a nutshell the Heath Care Bill was passed by a majority in the House and a super majority in the Senate and signed into law by the President.  Only the changes to the bill to reconcile the differences will be passed by the Reconciliation process which can only be done once the original bill is signed into law.  Thus we have one more vote coming later this week.

The confusion stems from the fact that some Republicans, Fox News, and talk radio have been calling Reconciliation the Nuclear Option which I have explained are two different things.  This is just outright and purposeful miss-representation for the purpose of confusion and scare tactics.  If you want to dispute how the bill was passed go ahead but you should look elsewhere for your facts as your current source is not serving you well.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 02:14:20 PM by srust58 »

Offline azuredesign

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #108 on: March 24, 2010, 08:01:51 AM »
Just got my health insurance renewal in Massachusetts, which has already adopted the health insurance for all. My bill for my wife and I went from $980. per month to just over $1340. per month. (Tufts Basic 25)
Nice huh?

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #109 on: March 24, 2010, 08:07:12 AM »
Hey, it costs to play in Taxachusettes. Move to New Hampster if you want less taxes.

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Offline andy750

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #110 on: March 24, 2010, 08:26:45 AM »

Not that you really care but...a European perspective on the Health care bill...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20100324/wl_time/08599197442400

Some comments lifted from it..

"On Sunday evening the richest, most powerful country in the world, the USA, finally entered the 20th century. Yes, not the 21st century, but the 20th"

and

"One of the most important differences between America and other industrialized countries has finally been lifted"

and the power of the European voter...

"In Europe, voters demand that their governments offer good public services - including decent education and medical care - and regularly vote them out of office when they fail to deliver. Taxes may be slightly higher in Europe, but medical fees are heavily subsidized by governments and are drastically cheaper than they are in the U.S."

and finally....

"The fundamental difference between Europe and the U.S., Europeans believe, is that Americans regard public services as a bonus rather than a basic right. For some, this is evidence that the American system is deeply flawed. "It was a scandal that the world's richest country for so long offered its citizens such pitiful protection against illness or injury," wrote Gregor Peter Schmitz, Washington correspondent for Der Spiegel  on its website Monday. "It seems entirely possible that, in 10 years time, Americans will find it hard to believe that they didn't always have the right to health insurance." "



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Offline edbikerii

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #111 on: March 24, 2010, 08:44:56 AM »
You're right, Andy, Americans don't really care what Europeans think of America.  If we did, we'd move to Europe.

"Slightly higher taxes" are a euphemism for $8/gallon gas, which is a HUGE HIDDEN TAX ON ALL THINGS DELIVERED BY TRUCK, most especially FOOD, but impacting EVERYTHING ELSE.

A perfect example is that I took my ex-wife to a decent-looking Chinese restaurant in London back in 2001.  It was in Marylebone, on a major street - I don't remember the name.  We're not talking anything fancy, mind you.  Frankly kind of crappy and tacky by NYC standards.

When we got the bill, for two people to eat lousy Chinese food, it was $100 POUNDS.  AT the time, that was $160 US!!!  Totally friggin outrageous!  In London, home of the blandest, most boring food in the world, even Indian food is super-expensive, more than double the same cost in New York City.

Flats in London (apartments in American English) are tiny little #$%*-holes that cost nearly triple per square foot what apartments in Manhattan cost.

A hotel room in London cost me $450 US per night, and we were expected to SHARE A BATHROOM WITH THE ADJACENT ROOM!!!  Sorry, that's not charming.  That's just tacky.

Everything is more expensive, and there is only one reason for it:  TAXES.  TAXES AT EVERY STEP OF THE JOURNEY FROM PRODUCER TO CONSUMER.  They tax the gas the trucks use to deliver the fuel, they tax the income of the producers, they tax the income of the store owner who sells it to you, they tax the income of the delivery man, they tax the income of the landlord, they tax EVERYTHING EXCESSIVELY.

In return for all that excessive taxation, they get marginal health care.  Fmr. President Bill Clinton (Oxford educated) sure didn't fly to London when he needed his heart taken care of.  He flew to Manhattan.


Not that you really care but...a European perspective on the Health care bill...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20100324/wl_time/08599197442400

Some comments lifted from it..

"On Sunday evening the richest, most powerful country in the world, the USA, finally entered the 20th century. Yes, not the 21st century, but the 20th"

and

"One of the most important differences between America and other industrialized countries has finally been lifted"

and the power of the European voter...

"In Europe, voters demand that their governments offer good public services - including decent education and medical care - and regularly vote them out of office when they fail to deliver. Taxes may be slightly higher in Europe, but medical fees are heavily subsidized by governments and are drastically cheaper than they are in the U.S."

and finally....

"The fundamental difference between Europe and the U.S., Europeans believe, is that Americans regard public services as a bonus rather than a basic right. For some, this is evidence that the American system is deeply flawed. "It was a scandal that the world's richest country for so long offered its citizens such pitiful protection against illness or injury," wrote Gregor Peter Schmitz, Washington correspondent for Der Spiegel  on its website Monday. "It seems entirely possible that, in 10 years time, Americans will find it hard to believe that they didn't always have the right to health insurance." "




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Offline demon78

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #112 on: March 24, 2010, 08:52:57 AM »
Yes Ed, we know everything is better in Kansas city (america).
Bill the demon.

Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #113 on: March 24, 2010, 09:04:07 AM »
Glad to see Ed is still around.   I thought is head would explode when the Health Care Bill passed. ;D

Offline andy750

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #114 on: March 24, 2010, 09:28:59 AM »
Wow Ed calm down, it was just an article in Time magazine....I dont think you have to move to a certain country or continent just to care or not care what they might think about you. But anyway...

Im not sure what your little rant on your London trip has to do with the US Health care bill but you are grossly misinformed in your comments (which Ill not go through). YOUR experience of an expensive trip to London is NOT the norm and clearly at every stage of your trip you got ripped off, and most likely you came off as a gullible American tourist. I mean who pays 100 pounds for Chinese food!?  :D. And your hotel experience is also comical. Sorry but you need to get a little more worldly  ;)

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Offline edbikerii

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #115 on: March 24, 2010, 10:27:17 AM »
Nice try, Andy, but I've been to London many times.  My company has a major office there, and hundreds of my co-workers both here and in the UK, are from there.  I chose the most egregious example, as well as the one that is simplest for most who may not have been to London to understand.  Also, I've traveled quite extensively on three continents and in several countries over the past twenty years of working for global financial services firms.

Wow Ed calm down, it was just an article in Time magazine....I dont think you have to move to a certain country or continent just to care or not care what they might think about you. But anyway...

Im not sure what your little rant on your London trip has to do with the US Health care bill but you are grossly misinformed in your comments (which Ill not go through). YOUR experience of an expensive trip to London is NOT the norm and clearly at every stage of your trip you got ripped off, and most likely you came off as a gullible American tourist. I mean who pays 100 pounds for Chinese food!?  :D. And your hotel experience is also comical. Sorry but you need to get a little more worldly  ;)


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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #116 on: March 24, 2010, 10:37:49 AM »
Yeah, people that live in London try to avoid London.
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Offline andy750

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #117 on: March 24, 2010, 10:56:56 AM »
Yeah, people that live in London try to avoid London.

Dosent make any sense? If you live there how could you avoid it? And why would you? Have you been to London? If not you should go.

Great place and I have lived there and can say its nothing like Ed has suggested.

Not quite sure what all this has to do with US Health bill that just passed?  ::).  
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 11:34:23 AM by andy750 »
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #118 on: March 24, 2010, 11:14:25 AM »
Let's stay away from personal attacks, shall we. Despite being a contentious topic, most have been handling it well.. so far.
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline demon78

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #119 on: March 24, 2010, 11:30:41 AM »
Does any one remember the book the "{ugly American"?
Bill the demon.

Offline edbikerii

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #120 on: March 24, 2010, 01:03:14 PM »
Are you joking with this?

Not quite sure what all this has to do with US Health bill that just passed?  ::).  

The well-known problem of high taxes in the UK is the direct result of excessive entitlement programs like socialized medicine.  The only places where socialism seems to work are places where there are seemingly-infinite natural resources (Norway - hydroelectric, Canada - hydroelectric, etc.) that can pay for the socialism.  THE REST OF US HAVE TO WORK AT REAL JOBS TO PAY FOR THE ENTITLEMENTS.

There are two ways to look at the "taking care of the people" argument.  The way that Americans have traditionally preferred for the government to "take care of the people" (and still do, based on the unpopularity of the healthcare bill that was signed yesterday), has been for the government to keep their filthy, stinking, tax-grubbing hands off because we are adults and can take care of ourselves.

The socialist way seems to favor the nanny state where the basic assumption is that only the elite government-types are smart enough to figure it out.  Everyone else is just a dummy, and therefore not worthy of making decisions for themselves.

I guess enough dumbing-down by the media and the horrible education system have finally paid off for the socialists here in America.
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Offline demon78

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #121 on: March 24, 2010, 01:24:19 PM »
Ed I wish you would take the time and read about political systems and understand them, preferably unbiased scholarly works, so that you don't sound like you are screaming to cover up a lack of understanding.
Bill the demon.

Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #122 on: March 24, 2010, 02:00:13 PM »
Wow Ed calm down, it was just an article in Time magazine....I dont think you have to move to a certain country or continent just to care or not care what they might think about you. But anyway...

Im not sure what your little rant on your London trip has to do with the US Health care bill but you are grossly misinformed in your comments (which Ill not go through). YOUR experience of an expensive trip to London is NOT the norm and clearly at every stage of your trip you got ripped off, and most likely you came off as a gullible American tourist. I mean who pays 100 pounds for Chinese food!?  :D. And your hotel experience is also comical. Sorry but you need to get a little more worldly  ;)



Not really about Health Care but I was in London in 2001 too.  Did not see Ed, though we did eat in a nice Thai restaurant that was across the street from Windsor Castle.  I think it cost us around $40-50 and the nice B&B's we stayed in Scotland and England were around $35-45 per night.  I do remember gas being around $7-8 per gallon but we had a cool little Peugeot that got 50-60 miles per gallon.  I wish I could travel in the rarefied circles that Ed does with his $150 meals and hotels. ;D

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #123 on: March 24, 2010, 02:15:34 PM »
I've traveled in Europe a little, things are a little more expensive, but nothing like Japan.  They eat a lot of rice there because meat is very expensive.   


My beef with the UK is their tepid beer, gave me a pounding headache every time I drank it, and I tried many times, and many different types.





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Re: health care bill
« Reply #124 on: March 24, 2010, 02:19:16 PM »
Travel to UK
List of things to bring.

 *Cooler,  check.


anything else?