Author Topic: 1st gear, 2nd gear, 3rd gear POP, POOSHH, WHINNNGRRRR!!!! (Motor kaput!) pics  (Read 4094 times)

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Offline timdhawk

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Pulled the motor, opened her up and found this: a broken ARP stud without the nut:



And this spoke to me in a bad way:


A beautiful collection of WTF leftovers:


Do you think this is bad...?



So, seriously... WTF happened? I found the nut from the broken ARP stud in the bottom with all the chain mess, and its chewed to hell. 488 miles after total rebuild! Damn...
In deeper than I should be...

Offline reddyvv

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Damn, that's terrible. Sorry for your loss. Looks like the nut and stud remnant got stuck between the cam chain and sprocket or jammed the camshaft somehow causing it to lock and blow up in spectacular fashion.


Did you put those studs in when you did the rebuild? Didn't overtorque them did you? If not some metallurgical issue (wasn't hardened properly?) since that needle point looks like a typical bolt separation from overtightening or weak metal.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 05:03:11 PM by reddyvv »

Offline timdhawk

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Damn, that's terrible. Sorry for your loss. Looks like the nut and stud remnant got stuck between the cam chain and sprocket or jammed the camshaft somehow causing it to lock and blow up in spectacular fashion.


Did you put those studs in when you did the rebuild? Didn't overtorque them did you? If not some metallurgical issue (wasn't hardened properly?) since that needle point looks like a typical bolt separation from overtightening or weak metal.

I guess its possible but I did take my time on the torqueing since it was my first 750 rebuild. But how would the nut be separate from the broken stud? See 1st pic - the broken stud end is to the left of the stud and the nut was down in the case..
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Offline Nikkisixx

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I would expect the aluminum threads in the case to pull out before the stud could be over torqued.  How did you thread them into the case (double nut, pliers, hands of steel)?
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Offline bjatwood

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Sorry dude! That must have sounded horrible!  :'(
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Offline reddyvv

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I would expect the aluminum threads in the case to pull out before the stud could be over torqued.  How did you thread them into the case (double nut, pliers, hands of steel)?

I would agree and I am wondering if a stud made it through QC without get hardened. Or a flaw in the metal? It would be interesting if someone could suggest how to check the hardness on that stud.

Overtightening a double nut enough to stretch the bolt before screwing it into the case could be possible but, man you'd have to be strong.

But how would the nut be separate from the broken stud? See 1st pic - the broken stud end is to the left of the stud and the nut was down in the case..

Once the stud stretches enough that there is no longer any tension on the nut, or the stud breaks off, the nut will just vibrate itself off the stud.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 07:15:34 PM by reddyvv »

Offline trueblue

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Ouch, talk about a spanner in the works :o
It could just be an optical delusion, but that stud looks like it has been waisted just below the break point, this would point to it being too tight or the stud is too weak. 
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Online PeWe

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Heavy Duty cylinder stud that snapped?
I snapped one when torquing the head just under the nut as yours. I hope the other ones will not snap when driving.
Just open the engine completely again, clean it, maybe new bearings and other parts on the list as well :-\
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Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Nikkisixx

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The shape of that break is typical of tension failure. What is not typical (but not unheard of) is that the break is that far above the flange surface, and would have occurred halfway inside the nut.  PeWe described a more common failure: under the nut.  Breaking inside the nut leads me to believe there was a stress riser (a nick or cut) on the stud at that point prior to installation.  Is the stud loose, has it backed out? 


It is a proven fact that modifying a SOHC Honda in any way will bring on the apocalypse.

Offline trueblue

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The shape of that break is typical of tension failure. What is not typical (but not unheard of) is that the break is that far above the flange surface, and would have occurred halfway inside the nut.  PeWe described a more common failure: under the nut.  Breaking inside the nut leads me to believe there was a stress riser (a nick or cut) on the stud at that point prior to installation.  Is the stud loose, has it backed out? 



There is no washer there, so it would probably would have been just under the nut ;)
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Offline 754

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Man that sucks, looks like it took out a lot of other parts.. Is that a stock cam ?
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Offline Magilla

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I was feeling bad because I broke the left front fork on my Norton last week.  Now I see that I don't have it so bad.

That is a catastrophic failure in epic proportions.  Did it happen on the break in ride?  What RPM range were you in when it detonated?
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Offline bryanj

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If that cam stopped whilst the crank was turning you also have bent valves mate
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Offline Vinhead1957

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Total top end rebuild and hopefully it didn't hurt the gear on the crank

Offline 70CB750

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Painful to watch!

What was the timeline?  The first ride or how many miles since rebuild did it happen?
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Offline 754

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Not just topend, tore up a primary chain..
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Offline CrankyOldGuy

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I am just curious but in the second picture in the original post is that the end of a sparkplug that is visible through the remaining hole in the cam shaft sprocket?  If so, there must be more damage to the underside of the head.  It's been 35+ years since I had my 750 apart so I could be wrong.

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Offline scottly

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There were some reports of broken "Heavy Duty" studs 2-3 years ago...
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=77878.0
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Online PeWe

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timdhawk
Do you know how much torque that was used on these studs?

The damage on photo might include crank (sprockets for prim, cam chains). Cracks in cases too?

Any other known expensive HD stud case as this one?
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline timdhawk

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Ya know... I had a vague recollection that an HD stud had snapped on me once before when putting this motor back together... I was right:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=82414.msg926653#msg926653
Not the exact same stud, but from the same parts seller...
In deeper than I should be...

Online PeWe

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My stud snapped at the same torque as you have described in your thread... after torquing the first 10 head nuts to 21 ft/lbs per recommendation, #11 snapped before hitting the torque "click".
So, I have to take out the engine again and replace all other studs too?

I bought a complete new set when one snapped, replaced the broken one only. All studs tightened to 21ftlbs first time. Now18ftlbs only after the failure when one stud was replaced together with new head gasket. 24 hours later all nuts retightened one by one by unscrewing each nut 1/4 turn followed by retorque to 18 again, from center going outwards as head should be done. I marked some nuts to verify, nuts moved appr 2mm on the outer radius.

It must be a fabrication failure. In my world studs like these are manufactured in batches where a number of samples are tested to verify when stretch and snapping. It cannot been done here.

- The stud that snapped for me felt soft much earlier than the snapping moment, maybe around 15-18. Same for you?
You torqued them all to 21 2:nd time too?

EDIT: IN your old thread the studs look a littbe bit strange.
Are they mounted upside down with the longer thread upwards? Should be into the case if I recall correctly. I have pics of my stud failure home, long way from where I'm now.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 12:41:13 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967