Author Topic: gun massacre  (Read 27178 times)

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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #400 on: June 13, 2014, 03:09:19 pm »
Even when the Bozo in the the White House gave the opposition pretty much exactly what they had called for 15 years earlier they still said no.

I certainly agree with 50% of this: Bozo has taken up residence at 1600 Penn Ave.

 :o
I beg to differ, Bozo the Clown would be much better president.


If Obama #$%* a thousand golden Ronnie Reagans, you'd still hate him.

You are the one speaking of hate,  I only think he is a very poorly performing president.

I'm extremely curious to know what you thought of Bush, considering he did everything possible to give your country a bad name internationally and give you the financial crisis you have now...?
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #401 on: June 13, 2014, 03:17:15 pm »

"Facts" and "truth" are simply a distraction from the real argument, which is how you feel about the topic. Got it.


To say those figures are bogus or insignificant is just plain ignorant and stupid, sorry guys but thats just total bullsh1t, look at it how you want, you"ve totally missed the point, we have still had none in that period and none i can even remember at all, ever.   The schools are just one example and a disgusting statistic at that, what other stats would you like, you'll still find NO gun stats that come close to ours no matter how you like to look at it and there are still plenty of guns here.... 1 shooting in a school is far too many, 74 should be a national disgrace, regardless of how they occurred.... referring to me as being "innocent" to whats going on is annoying and patronizing, the number is insignificant, the point was it should be a national disgrace and something should be being done about it, how can the worlds largest economy and "protectors" of the free world be so damn violent, its completely hypocritical..



Seriously, I really don't care what you say, to confuse the issue by attacking the statistics and trivializing the issue and turning it into a sh1t fight shows exactly why there is a problem in the first place....got it...!! No school shootings here of ANY KIND, stop making excuses...The problem with people like you is that you don't see a problem, {or don't care} you'd rather argue over semantics than address exactly whats going on, this has been discussed numerous times on this forum, your gun stats can't be denied, they are absolutely atrocious and so different from the rest of the west its amazing, so is your incarceration rate which Terry touched on earlier, this is what you don't see and it gets back to what i said earlier, its about a mentality and thats what has to change, FFS, you let your governments screw you over backwards just so you can have guns, People actually vote for people that will allow them to have unrestricted access to guns, That, as far as the rest of the Western world goes is a huge joke.....

Personally, I don't give a #$%* if it's a shooting at a school, at a business, gang violence, a domestic dispute, a suicide. It's all got to stop.
Ideal, but naive.

Nothing naive about it. Not likely possible, but if it's not the desired goal of every person here then we will get nowhere.

I agree, Definitely ideal but not naive at all, to want a solution to any crisis is not what i would call naive... Now if anyone thought a change in gun laws would change this scenario then that would be naive, a hell of a lot more has to change socially and politically before this could even look like working.....
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Offline JeffSTL

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #402 on: June 13, 2014, 03:22:42 pm »
Apologies, but if you think you will ever persuade someone involved in gang violence, the drug trade or other criminal activity to not resort to a gun to enforce their will, then you are naive.

The only hope you ever have of accomplishing that, is to remove from the face of the earth all firearms, and somehow get those "criminals" to turn their back on that life and become moral, upstanding members of society. As I said, ideal, but naive.

You think much too small and frankly seem like a quiter. Obviously it's not going to be easy and obviously no one is going to just convince them of anything. It would be a long process. It would involve somehow creating better opportunities and getting them to see better options for their future. Providing a map out of the ghetto, out of poverty and out of gang life.

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #403 on: June 13, 2014, 03:30:00 pm »
Apologies, but if you think you will ever persuade someone involved in gang violence, the drug trade or other criminal activity to not resort to a gun to enforce their will, then you are naive.

The only hope you ever have of accomplishing that, is to remove from the face of the earth all firearms, and somehow get those "criminals" to turn their back on that life and become moral, upstanding members of society. As I said, ideal, but naive.

You think much too small and frankly seem like a quiter. Obviously it's not going to be easy and obviously no one is going to just convince them of anything. It would be a long process. It would involve somehow creating better opportunities and getting them to see better options for their future. Providing a map out of the ghetto, out of poverty and out of gang life.

Exactly, for a lot of these people its the only life they have ever known, the cycle needs to be broken...
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Offline calj737

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #404 on: June 13, 2014, 03:46:06 pm »
Retro - I think he was a man of convictions, and believed strongly in national pride, or America as some might say. I think he was an ineffective president due to a lack of experience and capabilities. I strongly doubt, that were the elections held with any foresight into the 9/11 issues or mortgage crisis, or imploded economy, that he would have been the candidate.

He made tons of mistakes, but we disagree most strongly that the financial crisis we are in now, had little to do with Bush. It began under Clinton, continued under Bush, and has escalated under Obama. Clinton inherited a thriving economy, did little to upset it (outside of the sub-prime lending debacle) and then the bubble burst (exactly as foretold by economists for many years prior).

Bush was not a financial maven, nor was his cabinet. Their eye was definitely off the ball with Iraq, Afghanistan, and 9/11 purely their focus. But for the first 3 years subsequent to 9/11, every Congressman was supportive.

Compared to our current status, I'd argue that the global view of the US is far worse now, then when Bush was in office. Or foreign policy has not been effective, our national economy is a wreck, every week there is another fire to extinguish. It's laughable and pathetic. How any American can be proud of how our country or government is behaving now, is beyond me.

Don't get me wrong, it's not all Obama's fault by any measure. But, it is my "small thinking" opinion the the has done huge damage nationally and globally. More so than any other president. Anyone who characterizes this as "hate" is myopic and deluded.

-Since you asked.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #405 on: June 13, 2014, 04:37:15 pm »
Retro - I think he was a man of convictions, and believed strongly in national pride, or America as some might say. I think he was an ineffective president due to a lack of experience and capabilities. I strongly doubt, that were the elections held with any foresight into the 9/11 issues or mortgage crisis, or imploded economy, that he would have been the candidate.

He made tons of mistakes, but we disagree most strongly that the financial crisis we are in now, had little to do with Bush. It began under Clinton, continued under Bush, and has escalated under Obama. Clinton inherited a thriving economy, did little to upset it (outside of the sub-prime lending debacle) and then the bubble burst (exactly as foretold by economists for many years prior).

Bush was not a financial maven, nor was his cabinet. Their eye was definitely off the ball with Iraq, Afghanistan, and 9/11 purely their focus. But for the first 3 years subsequent to 9/11, every Congressman was supportive.

Compared to our current status, I'd argue that the global view of the US is far worse now, then when Bush was in office. Or foreign policy has not been effective, our national economy is a wreck, every week there is another fire to extinguish. It's laughable and pathetic. How any American can be proud of how our country or government is behaving now, is beyond me.

Don't get me wrong, it's not all Obama's fault by any measure. But, it is my "small thinking" opinion the the has done huge damage nationally and globally. More so than any other president. Anyone who characterizes this as "hate" is myopic and deluded.

-Since you asked.

You couldn't be more wrong Cal, the international mood under Bush was one of collective disdain, he was a bumbling fool, since the day he was born, we see the redneck far right making Obama's job almost impossible at times, we saw the extreme right stop the government dead in the water for weeks costing billions just to make a losing point, we see everything from an outside point of view, the farce over a fairer medical system, we don't have the hysterical religious right here or anywhere else in the western world Cal, I think you have completely misunderstood the international view on Obama and the obstacles he inherited, Bush was the worst thing internationally for the reputation of the USA ever.... Take a holiday over here Cal, you'll soon see things differently...
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Offline JeffSTL

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #406 on: June 13, 2014, 04:51:43 pm »
Retro, do you have a room for rent?  :)

Oh, and a little shed space for my 750k.  :)
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 04:55:03 pm by JeffSTL »

Offline calj737

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #407 on: June 13, 2014, 05:02:47 pm »
Well Retro, we have differing opinions from differing perspectives. Also, we have different sources of information for reaching our opinions. But, the holiday in Oz sounds brilliant! I'm flattered at the offer and will do my best to keep the invite open (as well as my mind) ;-)
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline Roach Carver

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #408 on: June 13, 2014, 06:29:14 pm »
Mick, when did you get elected to give the opinion of the international community? That must be a stressful position. :)

Offline cj750

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #409 on: June 13, 2014, 06:31:38 pm »
RR: Whatever makes you think I don't see the problem (or don't care)? Of COURSE there is a problem. Its just that I don't believe in the knee-jerk, feel-good "solutions" that get thrown about, like a ban on "assault weapons" or "closing the gun show loophole." More restrictions on the rights and freedom of the law-abiding, that will just be ignored by the crazies and criminals, are not the answer.
There are plenty of substantive reforms that could be implemented and would actually make a difference. Those I support whole-heartedly. Unfortunately, most meaningful measures negatively impact certain members of constituencies favored by the left, so they're blocked and opposed at every turn. Only when we can get past what's politically correct and focus on what's been proven to work will real progress be made in ending the violence.
As far as unrestricted access to guns, I wish! Do you have any idea how much paperwork is involved every time I want to buy another machine gun?
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Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #410 on: June 13, 2014, 06:33:08 pm »
Retro, do you have a room for rent?  :)

Oh, and a little shed space for my 750k.  :)

Just come up here....it's almost like Canada. :)  I just came back from a trip to Seattle and that would be a good option too but housing is expensive.  The economy is humming here even during the last downturn it wasn't even half as bad as the rest of the country.  I just look at much of the country south of me and just shake my head, the Wing Nut Bible Belt in all it's glory. ;D  I have little to no interest in visiting much less ever living there.  And yes I have been there many times for work over the course of my life.  I always head north, west, or overseas when I need a vacation or think about relocating.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 06:35:46 pm by srust58 »

Offline calj737

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #411 on: June 13, 2014, 06:47:36 pm »
Wow, srust! With an attitude like that towards your neighbors, I'm not surprised you didn't feel welcomed in the "Wing nut Bible Belt". Shame you didn't have a chance to stop into my home. We'd welcome you with no judgement, no disdain, and offer all the hospitality within our means.

And you don't even need to read the bible to be welcome here- I'd only ask that you not throw ours into your fire pit while you're here, purely as a courtesy.

Cheers,
Cal
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Offline JeffSTL

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #412 on: June 13, 2014, 07:43:01 pm »
Retro, do you have a room for rent?  :)

Oh, and a little shed space for my 750k.  :)

Just come up here....it's almost like Canada. :)  I just came back from a trip to Seattle and that would be a good option too but housing is expensive.  The economy is humming here even during the last downturn it wasn't even half as bad as the rest of the country.  I just look at much of the country south of me and just shake my head, the Wing Nut Bible Belt in all it's glory. ;D  I have little to no interest in visiting much less ever living there.  And yes I have been there many times for work over the course of my life.  I always head north, west, or overseas when I need a vacation or think about relocating.

Retro, do you have a room for rent?  :)

Oh, and a little shed space for my 750k.  :)

Just come up here....it's almost like Canada. :)  I just came back from a trip to Seattle and that would be a good option too but housing is expensive.  The economy is humming here even during the last downturn it wasn't even half as bad as the rest of the country.  I just look at much of the country south of me and just shake my head, the Wing Nut Bible Belt in all it's glory. ;D  I have little to no interest in visiting much less ever living there.  And yes I have been there many times for work over the course of my life.  I always head north, west, or overseas when I need a vacation or think about relocating.

I have little interest in living here. Family is the only positive. Actually, St. Louis and KC aren't bad, but with the way the district lines have been gerrymandered, out state rural MO has undue influence and holds us back from doing anything to move forward.  I  have a friend that lives in Minneapolis and hear it's great. She is a big bicyclists and loves it. After our son graduates from high school in 4 yrs. we are planning on getting the hell out of here, for sure. The Bible Belt is busted. My wife has an aversion to the harsh winters, so I'm not sure I can convince her about Minnesota. I used to live in denver/work in boulder and we both like it there. Burlington VT, Portland, and Seattle are all on the list.  Of course, the good places to live are a little more expensive and I'd still have to live with the rest of the country holding us back.

Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #413 on: June 13, 2014, 10:00:59 pm »
Wow, srust! With an attitude like that towards your neighbors, I'm not surprised you didn't feel welcomed in the "Wing nut Bible Belt". Shame you didn't have a chance to stop into my home. We'd welcome you with no judgement, no disdain, and offer all the hospitality within our means.

And you don't even need to read the bible to be welcome here- I'd only ask that you not throw ours into your fire pit while you're here, purely as a courtesy.

Cheers,
Cal

It has nothing to do with you as an individual...I am sure you are a fine person.  It's called Voting With Your Money.  I don't care for the politics of your region, not supporting marriage equality, not believing in science, the leaders you elect seem to be always trying to make it hard for those "others" to vote under the phony guise of voter fraud,  the vilification of education professionals (my wife), too many of your elected officials seem to want to impose some kind of religious theocracy on the country.  I could go on with some harsher criticism but I will leave it at that.  It's much the same reason I don't shop at Home Depot.  The owner is a right wing tool.....the employees are fine.   I am hardly the only one.  Even some of my remodeling clients request I don't shop Home Depot for the jobs I do for them.  Just recently out in Seattle I was at a dinner party and the subject came up of what I did for a living and someone said, " You don't shop Home Depot do you?"  You can't always know what the ownership stance is but when I can I make my choice.  I have traveled the country and world...more than most and I know what I like...and I don't like politics of your region in the macro sense and have no interest in supporting it in any way.  It has nothing to do with you as an individual.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 10:20:07 pm by srust58 »

Offline JeffSTL

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #414 on: June 13, 2014, 11:18:49 pm »
^^^Well said, but much more politely than I would have put it. My wife and I just had a conversation about why I choose Lowes over Home Depot last week.

Offline demon78

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #415 on: June 14, 2014, 03:29:17 am »
What's this about Home Depot's owner being a right wing tool?
Bill the demon..

Offline calj737

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #416 on: June 14, 2014, 05:06:30 am »
Srust - if I may, I'm going to infer from two things you've written "Wing Nut Bible Belt" and "not believing in science" as your vilification of this region of the country has a large population of Christians and Catholics, and that you are not among them. All those things may be true, but what is also true, is that their beliefs don't exempt scientific facts. Nor does science exempt their beliefs from also being true. There is much archeological evidence to support some of their beliefs. And there is scientific evidence to further support some their beliefs.

If you want to discuss evolution of creationism, I say both are quite possible. Neither precludes the other. While lots of folks don't believe in creationism, that's what I think is most valuable, differing beliefs. It's an incredibly important ingredient of a society. But to dismiss people out of hand because their belief system is different, well that's the same bigotry you are offended by in others, isn't it?

There's much to dislike about our society these days. I haven't ever met or seen a perfect person. Power corrupts, it's that simple. A professor at a lectern often transgresses into espousing their personal views. And there's little room it seems anymore on school campuses for respect of theology. That's a shame really. Not that we should teach theology to all kids, especially in a public education system, but that we don't use it as a basis for historical relevance. Think of all the political decisions, international events based upon religious objectives? Do you really want to exclude young people from the importance of learning from those bad examples? I don't. I don't want prayer taught or expected, unless that is your family's choice. But I also don't want it vilified by society as being "hate filled, anti-social, elitism". Those labels are crap and they come from small minded hypocritical bigots.

I too have travelled extensively. And I can assure you, there's far greater evidence of daily racial tension in New England, New York, Philadelphia than there is in Virginia through Florida. Outside of small pockets in south Florida, I can not think of entire neighborhoods being designated as Irish, Italian, Russian, Chinatown, Blacks, etc. That segregation doesn't exist in the south, and it hasn't for over 50 years. Stop reading and start living in modern times. And voter interference? Hogwash!

There's no reasonable explanation anyone can give that would justify exempting any citizen from showing a state issued identification card before they are allowed to vote. None. It's not burden, it's proof you are eligible. Just like you have to show it to board plane, a train, enter a federal building, withdraw cash at the counter, write a check. Don't be myopic. That's spin cycle hogwash, and this type of "publicity" is exactly why this thread exists; your last post represents the line of thinking of those who demand, "My way or no way" as I read it. It's not dialogue, it's monologue. It's not inclusive, it's divisive.

If your head and heart are so firmly hardened, then I'd prefer you not to be my neighbor. But if there is room in either, then you are always welcome in my home. I won't try to change your mind, I'll just show you that your preconceived notions of a few examples in your life, don't define those you resent. It's called a generalization, and that's no way move forward. Try to understand what drives someone, then perhaps, you can identify the fork in the road that might turn their path. Isn't that exactly what you espoused regarding career criminals and gang members? Let's how them a different path?

Do you expect to have any success forcing those folks to change by whacking them with a belt? Good luck with that...

Odd to me that someone so noble (a craftsman as you claimed) would dispel history so quickly out of hand when the very aspects of your job, hand-made, were not produced by science, but by man. Sure a pneumatic nailer is more efficiency, but is it better? If you think so, then there's a brand new BMW k1600 awaiting you and they'll take your carbureted, points and plugs 40 year old heap in trade... Quite the dichotomy of your personality-
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #417 on: June 14, 2014, 05:14:47 am »
Well said, Cal.

  I actually experienced the whacking with a belt growing up, in a sense the higher truth was forced on us and comparing our daily lives to daily lies in media how well we are doing while you could see the reality yourself - resemblance to curent situation in USA is amazing.

Offline MoMo

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #418 on: June 14, 2014, 05:37:42 am »
^^^Well said, but much more politely than I would have put it. My wife and I just had a conversation about why I choose Lowes over Home Depot last week.



assume you are referring to Capitol World Investors?

Offline mick7504

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #419 on: June 14, 2014, 05:41:34 am »
You blokes have got some good stuff with who you are and what's been done over time.
Including some of the best music from Americans that still blow us.
There will always be sh1t at the grass roots.
It is an issue here as well, predominantly with the black fellas, but staying with who you are and whatever you believe in is all that can be done.

That comment about the black fellas isn't designed to be racict and it is staring at reality.

Walk with what you have, believe in what you have and your kids will folllow.
It's a challenged to be had, otherwise, we might as all be fcuking rocks.

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Offline MoMo

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #420 on: June 14, 2014, 05:57:30 am »
What's this about Home Depot's owner being a right wing tool?
Bill the demon..





^^^Well said, but much more politely than I would have put it. My wife and I just had a conversation about why I choose Lowes over Home Depot last week.



assume you are referring to Capitol World Investors?

Offline calj737

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #421 on: June 14, 2014, 06:07:05 am »
Thanks for the practical, realistic advice, Mick. It's important sometimes not to take ourselves too seriously, lest we lose perspective.

Momo, I think the reference on Homme Depot was targeted at Langone. He took a great deal of flack for comparing recent political narratives being similar to Hitler's Germany in that by substituting "race vilification" (then) for "class vilification" now, your results are the same. Maybe not an elegant example, and easily mis-characterized, but there's some truth and honesty in it.

A nation that is at war with itself can never stand united. Simple words, historically utters by our 16th president. Probably in my opinion, the greatest justification for the Civil War here. That sometimes, you must fight to force capitulation to preserve what is most treasured, a free country. Forcing adherence to the Constitution, was, is, and always will be, the right thing to do. Even if I differ with the Constitution, I must abide it. Else, I am not a citizen of the country in governs. If I don't like it, I'll leave.

There's a popular slogan now about "income equality" and "marriage equality". It's laughable to me that those who proclaim income equality as necessary, are the very people who thrive on our capitalistic society. Where on earth do they think the money will come from? Are you going to redistribute the wealth of private citizens? That's 100% contrary to the laws of our lands. I doubt they (those who proclaim it) truly understand the ramifications and resulting outcomes of it) will actually prefer it shortly after it's implementation.

And "marriage equality"? I don't give a rats two hind legs about what 2 people do. Nut you can't call it equality because it can't be by it's very construction. A man-man team is not the same as a Co-ed team. Where in sports do Co-ed teams compete against 2 men? They don't. So this isn't a "moral law" it's a social law. It's based upon tax issues, pure and simple. I'm fine with morally and from a tad basis. I just don't want to be required to change my morals to abide someone's else's choice, whether it be their choice of women, religion, house color, or educational model. That's part of a free country, I get to choose certain things.

You want income equality and marriage equality, then let's remove Personal Income tax altogether. Move to Federal VAT on consumption. It equalizes everything for everyone. That's equality. It removes the stigma altogether about why same sex couples need to marry; it's for tax and health benefits. Or inheritance and survivorship issues on estates. Get rid of these tax elements, and I doubt a single person in the US would give a #$%*e about any personal relationship choice someone makes.

But if you want equal tights, you should have to pay equal rates to play the game. Not equal levels, but equal rates. We have federally issued benefits cards (EBTs) that provide food and sustinence purchasing, so these holders can simply be tax exempt while they need assistance. Simple. As for illegal immigrants, move to a Consumption tax, then all their purchases go to fund the services they use, regardless of their eligibility for a tax ID. Easy.

And ill-gotten goods income (drugs, sex trade, gambling) these folks spend that money. Tax it when they do. More income to the Feds, means better spending availability to actually find programs needed (roads, schools, health care, etc) and every person living here benefits. You'll collect more money, each person shares equally, on a pro-rata basis! and there's no in-fighting about exemptions, havens, loop holes. What could be simpler than that?

But these battle cries for "equality" make my stomach ache and make my head spin... They want their cake and they expect to have it fed to them too. To get things, you must earn them. Whether it's contributing if you're physically or mentally able, or providing documentation to verify your eligibility. It's easy and far more efficient.

Then maybe, the programs and mentoring needed to persuade our younger generation to choose differently and break cycles of violence and street crime, might just come to pass.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline mick7504

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #422 on: June 14, 2014, 07:30:31 am »
You guys can and will rise to the challenge.
For sure, it aint gonna be no pleasure cruise.

I've always had it that the American, and Oz way, along with our neighbouring counterparts can get a flogging to begin with, but we're not gonna lay down and take it.

Things can only get better, and they will.
Thinking good and feeling good is the begining.
The past can't be changed but the future can be.
If I was you
I'd be worried about me.

Offline 70CB750

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #423 on: June 14, 2014, 10:18:59 am »
It is an issue here as well, predominantly with the black fellas, but staying with who you are and whatever you believe in is all that can be done.

That comment about the black fellas isn't designed to be racict and it is staring at reality.

Speaking of which, I saw Rabbit proof fence - they said it reflects the reality in Australia. Is it true that these in reality racist programs were supported till 80ties?  I could not believe any democratic country would do anyhing like that.

Offline calj737

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #424 on: June 14, 2014, 12:04:54 pm »
70 - there is not a modern society that does not have a skeleton in their closet. To me, it's not that is happened that astonishes me, it's the enormous recovery Oz made in such a short amount of time to reconcile the wrongs and amend their social behavior.

Hats off, gents!

This is a somewhat similar treatment of American Indians, and in an abstract way, the Japanese during WWII. That's what scares me, we can not seem to learn from our past to avoid the same cycle of mistakes. That correction requires men of good conscience to bond together to do what is necessary and right, not popular and easy. Sign me up for that endeavor, whatever it may be-
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis