Topic: gun massacre

[70CB750]

Now you can call me racist and with the previous line that will pretty much sum up your whole world view, LOL!

[JeffSTL]

You aren't the most clever fella.

[cj750]

Btw- the national review...great source for unbiased news, ha! I had the misfortune of trying to read through the links posted in the story. The links to disputed information took you to tweets, which then had links to stories that were supposed to disprove the stats. Crack journalism and fine work indeed. Apparently, that guy, Charles Johnson, thinks that if one kid shoots another kid in school, but they were in a gang, it doesn't count as a "school shooting."

The instance where a college kid is claiming self defense...he was involved in a fight, left the fight, went to his car to retrieve a gun, returned and fired. You'd have to live in a strange world to call this self defense. If he could get to his car, he could drive away. Returning and shooting is revenge, not self defense.

We can nitpick stories and numbers, but all of it is simply distraction from the problem. I also don't understand why some people seem to want to seperate the however many dozen school or mass public shootings from the other 30,000 or so deaths that come at the end of a gun barrel. We should want to attempt to keep them all from happening. It shouldn't matter if it's a random mass shooting, domestic, suicide, gang, or criminal activity.

I'm also so damn tired of hearing the knife or car analogy. The Seattle shooter turned to a large knife after his shotgun malfunction. The knife was quickly taken from him and no one else was injured.

National Review may or may not be your cup of tea, but in this case, they were spot on. Even CNN has acknowledged that 80% of the alleged 74 "school shootings" shouldn't have been counted as such. http://dailycaller.com/2014/06/11/cnn-slashes-school-shooting-stats-claim-by-80-percent/
I'd say that's being generous. But regardless, it doesn't take away from the fact that even one is a tragedy, and something should be done. As noted above what that something should be is the real issue.
My point is that throwing out grossly inflated statistics and fanning the flames of hysteria does nothing to constructively address the underlying problem. It simply polarizes the opposition and prevents any meaningful dialog from taking place.

[demon78]

Yes because I think if this was a debate some one, (a moderator?) perhaps would claim that every one has wandered off topic or at least the topic of what to do and I personally have only one thought, that gun violence is being exported through out the world by media and I would like it to stop, the exportation, that is, because to get down to the basic thing it's not cool.
Bill the demon.
 

[JeffSTL]

“It’s not a school shooting when someone goes and shoots a specific person on campus. It’s a shooting that happens to take place at school,” Charles C. Johnson protested.

The logic behind the "debunking" of the 74 previously reported school shootings.

[70CB750]

“It’s not a school shooting when someone goes and shoots a specific person on campus. It’s a shooting that happens to take place at school,” Charles C. Johnson protested.

The logic behind the "debunking" of the 74 previously reported school shootings.

I can clearly understand what he meant, but what do I know, English is my second, actually third language.

[cj750]

“It’s not a school shooting when someone goes and shoots a specific person on campus. It’s a shooting that happens to take place at school,” Charles C. Johnson protested.

The logic behind the "debunking" of the 74 previously reported school shootings.

Its not a hard concept to grasp. Not every fire in the forest is a "forest fire." Not everyone that's shot on school property is the victim of a "school shooting." Pretending they're all the same doesn't get us any closer to identifying and preventing the causes of the real thing.

[JeffSTL]

You guys just have every excuse in the book to not address the issue. Now you rely on semantics.

[JeffSTL]

Personally, I don't give a #$%* if it's a shooting at a school, at a business, gang violence, a domestic dispute, a suicide. It's all got to stop.

[JeffSTL]

Personally, I don't give a #$%* if it's a shooting at a school, at a business, gang violence, a domestic dispute, a suicide. It's all got to stop.

Ideal, but naive.

Nothing naive about it. Not likley possible, but if it's not the desired goal of every person here then we will get nowhere.

[cj750]

You guys just have every excuse in the book to not address the issue. Now you rely on semantics.

Not at all. I'm just saying that an honest, good-faith dialogue from both sides will be required to find a workable solution. Staking out a position based on misleading, over-hyped statistics and sensationalized talking points is counter-productive to that.

[Retro Rocket]

Even when the Bozo in the the White House gave the opposition pretty much exactly what they had called for 15 years earlier they still said no.

I certainly agree with 50% of this: Bozo has taken up residence at 1600 Penn Ave.

 

I beg to differ, Bozo the Clown would be much better president.

If Obama #$%* a thousand golden Ronnie Reagans, you'd still hate him.

You are the one speaking of hate,  I only think he is a very poorly performing president.

I'm extremely curious to know what you thought of Bush, considering he did everything possible to give your country a bad name internationally and give you the financial crisis you have now...?

[Retro Rocket]

"Facts" and "truth" are simply a distraction from the real argument, which is how you feel about the topic. Got it.

To say those figures are bogus or insignificant is just plain ignorant and stupid, sorry guys but thats just total bullsh1t, look at it how you want, you"ve totally missed the point, we have still had none in that period and none i can even remember at all, ever.   The schools are just one example and a disgusting statistic at that, what other stats would you like, you'll still find NO gun stats that come close to ours no matter how you like to look at it and there are still plenty of guns here.... 1 shooting in a school is far too many, 74 should be a national disgrace, regardless of how they occurred.... referring to me as being "innocent" to whats going on is annoying and patronizing, the number is insignificant, the point was it should be a national disgrace and something should be being done about it, how can the worlds largest economy and "protectors" of the free world be so damn violent, its completely hypocritical..

Seriously, I really don't care what you say, to confuse the issue by attacking the statistics and trivializing the issue and turning it into a sh1t fight shows exactly why there is a problem in the first place....got it...!! No school shootings here of ANY KIND, stop making excuses...The problem with people like you is that you don't see a problem, {or don't care} you'd rather argue over semantics than address exactly whats going on, this has been discussed numerous times on this forum, your gun stats can't be denied, they are absolutely atrocious and so different from the rest of the west its amazing, so is your incarceration rate which Terry touched on earlier, this is what you don't see and it gets back to what i said earlier, its about a mentality and thats what has to change, FFS, you let your governments screw you over backwards just so you can have guns, People actually vote for people that will allow them to have unrestricted access to guns, That, as far as the rest of the Western world goes is a huge joke.....

Personally, I don't give a #$%* if it's a shooting at a school, at a business, gang violence, a domestic dispute, a suicide. It's all got to stop.

Ideal, but naive.

Nothing naive about it. Not likely possible, but if it's not the desired goal of every person here then we will get nowhere.

I agree, Definitely ideal but not naive at all, to want a solution to any crisis is not what i would call naive... Now if anyone thought a change in gun laws would change this scenario then that would be naive, a hell of a lot more has to change socially and politically before this could even look like working.....

[JeffSTL]

Apologies, but if you think you will ever persuade someone involved in gang violence, the drug trade or other criminal activity to not resort to a gun to enforce their will, then you are naive.

The only hope you ever have of accomplishing that, is to remove from the face of the earth all firearms, and somehow get those "criminals" to turn their back on that life and become moral, upstanding members of society. As I said, ideal, but naive.

You think much too small and frankly seem like a quiter. Obviously it's not going to be easy and obviously no one is going to just convince them of anything. It would be a long process. It would involve somehow creating better opportunities and getting them to see better options for their future. Providing a map out of the ghetto, out of poverty and out of gang life.

[Retro Rocket]

Apologies, but if you think you will ever persuade someone involved in gang violence, the drug trade or other criminal activity to not resort to a gun to enforce their will, then you are naive.

The only hope you ever have of accomplishing that, is to remove from the face of the earth all firearms, and somehow get those "criminals" to turn their back on that life and become moral, upstanding members of society. As I said, ideal, but naive.

You think much too small and frankly seem like a quiter. Obviously it's not going to be easy and obviously no one is going to just convince them of anything. It would be a long process. It would involve somehow creating better opportunities and getting them to see better options for their future. Providing a map out of the ghetto, out of poverty and out of gang life.

Exactly, for a lot of these people its the only life they have ever known, the cycle needs to be broken...

[Retro Rocket]

Retro - I think he was a man of convictions, and believed strongly in national pride, or America as some might say. I think he was an ineffective president due to a lack of experience and capabilities. I strongly doubt, that were the elections held with any foresight into the 9/11 issues or mortgage crisis, or imploded economy, that he would have been the candidate.

He made tons of mistakes, but we disagree most strongly that the financial crisis we are in now, had little to do with Bush. It began under Clinton, continued under Bush, and has escalated under Obama. Clinton inherited a thriving economy, did little to upset it (outside of the sub-prime lending debacle) and then the bubble burst (exactly as foretold by economists for many years prior).

Bush was not a financial maven, nor was his cabinet. Their eye was definitely off the ball with Iraq, Afghanistan, and 9/11 purely their focus. But for the first 3 years subsequent to 9/11, every Congressman was supportive.

Compared to our current status, I'd argue that the global view of the US is far worse now, then when Bush was in office. Or foreign policy has not been effective, our national economy is a wreck, every week there is another fire to extinguish. It's laughable and pathetic. How any American can be proud of how our country or government is behaving now, is beyond me.

Don't get me wrong, it's not all Obama's fault by any measure. But, it is my "small thinking" opinion the the has done huge damage nationally and globally. More so than any other president. Anyone who characterizes this as "hate" is myopic and deluded.

-Since you asked.

You couldn't be more wrong Cal, the international mood under Bush was one of collective disdain, he was a bumbling fool, since the day he was born, we see the redneck far right making Obama's job almost impossible at times, we saw the extreme right stop the government dead in the water for weeks costing billions just to make a losing point, we see everything from an outside point of view, the farce over a fairer medical system, we don't have the hysterical religious right here or anywhere else in the western world Cal, I think you have completely misunderstood the international view on Obama and the obstacles he inherited, Bush was the worst thing internationally for the reputation of the USA ever.... Take a holiday over here Cal, you'll soon see things differently...

[JeffSTL]

Retro, do you have a room for rent? 

Oh, and a little shed space for my 750k. 

[Roach Carver]

Mick, when did you get elected to give the opinion of the international community? That must be a stressful position.

[cj750]

RR: Whatever makes you think I don't see the problem (or don't care)? Of COURSE there is a problem. Its just that I don't believe in the knee-jerk, feel-good "solutions" that get thrown about, like a ban on "assault weapons" or "closing the gun show loophole." More restrictions on the rights and freedom of the law-abiding, that will just be ignored by the crazies and criminals, are not the answer.
There are plenty of substantive reforms that could be implemented and would actually make a difference. Those I support whole-heartedly. Unfortunately, most meaningful measures negatively impact certain members of constituencies favored by the left, so they're blocked and opposed at every turn. Only when we can get past what's politically correct and focus on what's been proven to work will real progress be made in ending the violence.
As far as unrestricted access to guns, I wish! Do you have any idea how much paperwork is involved every time I want to buy another machine gun?

[BeSeeingYou]

Retro, do you have a room for rent? 

Oh, and a little shed space for my 750k. 

Just come up here....it's almost like Canada.   I just came back from a trip to Seattle and that would be a good option too but housing is expensive.  The economy is humming here even during the last downturn it wasn't even half as bad as the rest of the country.  I just look at much of the country south of me and just shake my head, the Wing Nut Bible Belt in all it's glory.   I have little to no interest in visiting much less ever living there.  And yes I have been there many times for work over the course of my life.  I always head north, west, or overseas when I need a vacation or think about relocating.

[JeffSTL]

Retro, do you have a room for rent? 

Oh, and a little shed space for my 750k. 

Just come up here....it's almost like Canada.   I just came back from a trip to Seattle and that would be a good option too but housing is expensive.  The economy is humming here even during the last downturn it wasn't even half as bad as the rest of the country.  I just look at much of the country south of me and just shake my head, the Wing Nut Bible Belt in all it's glory.   I have little to no interest in visiting much less ever living there.  And yes I have been there many times for work over the course of my life.  I always head north, west, or overseas when I need a vacation or think about relocating.

Retro, do you have a room for rent? 

Oh, and a little shed space for my 750k. 

Just come up here....it's almost like Canada.   I just came back from a trip to Seattle and that would be a good option too but housing is expensive.  The economy is humming here even during the last downturn it wasn't even half as bad as the rest of the country.  I just look at much of the country south of me and just shake my head, the Wing Nut Bible Belt in all it's glory.   I have little to no interest in visiting much less ever living there.  And yes I have been there many times for work over the course of my life.  I always head north, west, or overseas when I need a vacation or think about relocating.

I have little interest in living here. Family is the only positive. Actually, St. Louis and KC aren't bad, but with the way the district lines have been gerrymandered, out state rural MO has undue influence and holds us back from doing anything to move forward.  I  have a friend that lives in Minneapolis and hear it's great. She is a big bicyclists and loves it. After our son graduates from high school in 4 yrs. we are planning on getting the hell out of here, for sure. The Bible Belt is busted. My wife has an aversion to the harsh winters, so I'm not sure I can convince her about Minnesota. I used to live in denver/work in boulder and we both like it there. Burlington VT, Portland, and Seattle are all on the list.  Of course, the good places to live are a little more expensive and I'd still have to live with the rest of the country holding us back.

[BeSeeingYou]

Wow, srust! With an attitude like that towards your neighbors, I'm not surprised you didn't feel welcomed in the "Wing nut Bible Belt". Shame you didn't have a chance to stop into my home. We'd welcome you with no judgement, no disdain, and offer all the hospitality within our means.

And you don't even need to read the bible to be welcome here- I'd only ask that you not throw ours into your fire pit while you're here, purely as a courtesy.

Cheers,
Cal

It has nothing to do with you as an individual...I am sure you are a fine person.  It's called Voting With Your Money.  I don't care for the politics of your region, not supporting marriage equality, not believing in science, the leaders you elect seem to be always trying to make it hard for those "others" to vote under the phony guise of voter fraud,  the vilification of education professionals (my wife), too many of your elected officials seem to want to impose some kind of religious theocracy on the country.  I could go on with some harsher criticism but I will leave it at that.  It's much the same reason I don't shop at Home Depot.  The owner is a right wing tool.....the employees are fine.   I am hardly the only one.  Even some of my remodeling clients request I don't shop Home Depot for the jobs I do for them.  Just recently out in Seattle I was at a dinner party and the subject came up of what I did for a living and someone said, " You don't shop Home Depot do you?"  You can't always know what the ownership stance is but when I can I make my choice.  I have traveled the country and world...more than most and I know what I like...and I don't like politics of your region in the macro sense and have no interest in supporting it in any way.  It has nothing to do with you as an individual.

[JeffSTL]

^^^Well said, but much more politely than I would have put it. My wife and I just had a conversation about why I choose Lowes over Home Depot last week.

[demon78]

What's this about Home Depot's owner being a right wing tool?
Bill the demon..

[70CB750]

Well said, Cal.

  I actually experienced the whacking with a belt growing up, in a sense the higher truth was forced on us and comparing our daily lives to daily lies in media how well we are doing while you could see the reality yourself - resemblance to curent situation in USA is amazing.