Topic: Sand Cast Reply

[Powderman]

I was on a Norton forum and mentioned my sandcast and got a reply from this guy:
"Sorry to be a bit of a killjoy, but there is no such thing as a sand cast Honda 750 –these crankcases never went anywhere near a grain of sand when they were made :!: - there has been a whole discussion of this subject on the Honda forums. :shock:"

I have never seen or heard of any discussion here or anywhere else along these lines. Is this guy just delusional, seems to be a lot of that going around.
Like this guy:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-CB750-NOS-Tank-CB750-Fuel-Tank-Sandcast-1969-Honda-1970-Honda-CB750-/262035039745?hash=item3d02816601:g:CpkAAOSwd0BV2oae&vxp=mtr

[70CB750]

If you look closer on a sandcast piece - I never had one in my hand from Honda - and die cast, you can tell the difference. 

For instance the die cast has marks from ejectors, something sand cast would be missing for sure.

Die cast will also have imprints of sliders that enable side holes and shapes.

[70CB750]

The small circles here are all ejector marks:



The manufacturer cleans them out on visible surface but it is not cost effective to do it on the inside.  One way you can tell sandcast from die cast.

[MCRider]

There is an article in the website that explains it. It wasn't truly sandcast, but using that term was more descriptive and expedient to use than the accurate name of the process. "gravity cast"
http://www.sohc4.net/cb750-sandcast/

As far as "no such thing as a sandcast" I come down on the side of, it is what it is commonly called, even if that is inaccurate.

Like saying the century turns on the "01", which is the accurate way. But we commonly say the century turns on the 00, so that's what it is. I've tried to fight it, can't be done.

When the common convention becomes accepted, you'll play heck to ever change it.

[70CB750]

There is an article in the website that explains it. It wasn't truly sandcast, but using that term was more descriptive and expedient to use than the accurate name of the process. "gravity cast"
http://www.sohc4.net/cb750-sandcast/

,

I had no idea, makes sense, thank you.

[kmb69]

I was on a Norton forum and mentioned my sandcast and got a reply from this guy:
"Sorry to be a bit of a killjoy, but there is no such thing as a sand cast Honda 750 –these crankcases never went anywhere near a grain of sand when they were made :!: - there has been a whole discussion of this subject on the Honda forums. :shock:"

I have never seen or heard of any discussion here or anywhere else along these lines. Is this guy just delusional, seems to be a lot of that going around.
Like this guy:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-CB750-NOS-Tank-CB750-Fuel-Tank-Sandcast-1969-Honda-1970-Honda-CB750-/262035039745?hash=item3d02816601:g:CpkAAOSwd0BV2oae&vxp=mtr

Your expert, on the Norton Forum, is obviously misinformed and possibly delusional. The first 7,414 1969 CB750 Honda engines were DEFINITELY produced using the Sandcast process. They were diecast beginning at CB750E-1007415. Sandcast and "gravity cast" are for all PRACTICAL definition, the same thing. Diecast or permanent mold tooling is not cheap and Honda had no idea if sales of their new bike would justify the investment in the tooling. It is quite common for manufacturers to build prototype and pilot series runs using the Sandcast process because it is much cheaper. The intro on this forum, http://www.sohc4.net/cb750-sandcast/, about the Sandcast motors is chock full of incorrect information. The writer obviously knows little about which he speaketh and writeth. Your Sandcast engine cases saw quite a bit of sand.

The eBay gas tank seller is a dreamer. That tank is not a "wrinkle" tank like the ones on the Sandcast and early K0's and he will be lucky to get $1200.00-1500.00 for it. In fact, his tank is one of the later model replacement parts with the gas cap lock.

[Powderman]

I was on a Norton forum and mentioned my sandcast and got a reply from this guy:
"Sorry to be a bit of a killjoy, but there is no such thing as a sand cast Honda 750 –these crankcases never went anywhere near a grain of sand when they were made :!: - there has been a whole discussion of this subject on the Honda forums. :shock:"

I have never seen or heard of any discussion here or anywhere else along these lines. Is this guy just delusional, seems to be a lot of that going around.
Like this guy:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-CB750-NOS-Tank-CB750-Fuel-Tank-Sandcast-1969-Honda-1970-Honda-CB750-/262035039745?hash=item3d02816601:g:CpkAAOSwd0BV2oae&vxp=mtr

Your expert, on the Norton Forum, is obviously misinformed and possibly delusional. The first 7,414 1969 CB750 Honda engines were DEFINITELY produced using the Sandcast process. They were diecast beginning at CB750E-1007415. Sandcast and "gravity cast" are for all PRACTICAL definition, the same thing. Diecast or permanent mold tooling is not cheap and Honda had no idea if sales of their new bike would justify the investment in the tooling. It is quite common for manufacturers to build prototype and pilot series runs using the Sandcast process because it is much cheaper. The intro on this forum, http://www.sohc4.net/cb750-sandcast/, about the Sandcast motors is chock full of incorrect information. The writer obviously knows little about which he speaketh and writeth. Your Sandcast engine cases saw quite a bit of sand.

The eBay gas tank seller is a dreamer. That tank is not a "wrinkle" tank like the ones on the Sandcast and early K0's and he will be lucky to get $1200.00-1500.00 for it. In fact, his tank is one of the later model replacement parts with the gas cap lock.

There seems to be no definitive answer to many sand cast questions. Who do you believe? Doesn't a member here own sand cast #7419 ? There is always discussion on how many actually were made. kmb69, what do you have to back up your claim to be more accurate than the link quoted?

[754]

I heard it was permanent mold.. Vs diecast..
But to keep the world turning... We call them sandcast,and diecast..to easily sort them out..
 Don't worry  about it much it's just what we call them... And yes no ducks were harmed making the seats, either.
 No unicorns were harmed making the top triple tree either.

[MCRider]

According to this, there is sand casting and there is gravity casting, which is a sub category of die casting which uses sand. If this is true, and I surely don't know but I suspect it is, then sand casting and gravity casting are not the same thing, other than they both use sand.
http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=1392

[przjohn]

When I was in high school metal shop class we would sand cast a project, can't even remember what we made but it was pretty simple stuff that kids make. When the casting came out of the sand the mold was destroyed and the next kid had to make a new mold out of the sand box from what I remember. I may be wrong but it would seem to be pretty inefficient even in prototype stage to make and remake over 7,000 sand molds. I could see the original gravity molds being sand cast and then gravity molded cases from that, could that be a possibility?

Oh, and kmb69, of course Norton Riders are delusional, that's how we get the Chics.  Ya gotta admit the Norton Girls were much hotter than the Honda Farm Fare.

[Don R]

 I went to a boiler school at Wiel Mclain, they sandcast all the cast iron boiler sections and they also did thousands. The mold makers made the outside and inside shapes and put them together making the intricate section. Then the inside sand mold was vibrated out with air hammers. It was very interesting and has nothing to do with this discussion except, yes it is commonly done.  The foundry was located there because that's where the good sand is.

[kmb69]

I own 7419 and it definitely has diecast crankcases. The crankcases are the principle part in question regarding the casting process as several of the original parts, case covers and such, were diecast from the very beginning. Not claiming to be the end all to know it all or bragging, but I have a collection of Sandcast 750's, including VIN 33 E 67, which was probably made on the first or second day of production and several additional Sandcast motors. The variation that exist in the crankcases between CB750E-1000067 (my lowest) and Cb750E-1007179 (my highest) would indicate that permanent molds were NOT used. Not to mention the obvious "sandcast" finish, inside and out, where they were not machined. Permanent molds normally do not produce that "sandcast" finish and normally do not produce the variation these Sandcast crankcases exhibit. This link, http://www.meteorfoundry.com/blog/casting-competition-sand-castings-vs-permanent-mold-castings/ ,has a brief but pretty good explanation of the difference in the 2 mold types. Note the part about the surface finishes produced by permanent molds.

Powderman, we've been down this road previously: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,132595.msg1484942.html#msg1484942

Vic World is likely the most knowledgeable expert on the subject and he also concludes they used the sandcast molding process. Believe what you will but the evidence supports Sandcast!

[kmb69]

According to this, there is sand casting and there is gravity casting, which is a sub category of die casting which uses sand. If this is true, and I surely don't know but I suspect it is, then sand casting and gravity casting are not the same thing, other than they both use sand.
http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=1392

Both sandcasting and permanent mold processes use "gravity" pours as opposed to diecasting where the pore is usually done under pressure.

[kmb69]

.....
Oh, and kmb69, of course Norton Riders are delusional, that's how we get the Chics.  Ya gotta admit the Norton Girls were much hotter than the Honda Farm Fare.

"Possibly" delusional. Powderman asserted the possibility first. Norton Girls definitely rule!

[kmb69]

.....
When the casting came out of the sand the mold was destroyed and the next kid had to make a new mold out of the sand box from what I remember. I may be wrong but it would seem to be pretty inefficient even in prototype stage to make and remake over 7,000 sand molds. I could see the original gravity molds being sand cast and then gravity molded cases from that, could that be a possibility?
.....

Maserati and Farrari sandcast their cylinder heads to this day. Kool video with Ferrari heads being sandcast near the beginning: http://www.fluxauto.com/?p=2108

The sand is reused. They mix it back up and use patterns to remake the mold. Or in some of the more sophisticated foundrys, they "print" the sand molds with 3D printers.

[Powderman]

I own 7419 and it definitely has diecast crankcases. The crankcases are the principle part in question regarding the casting process as several of the original parts, case covers and such, were diecast from the very beginning. Not claiming to be the end all to know it all or bragging, but I have a collection of Sandcast 750's, including VIN 33 E 67, which was probably made on the first or second day of production and several additional Sandcast motors. The variation that exist in the crankcases between CB750E-1000067 (my lowest) and Cb750E-1007179 (my highest) would indicate that permanent molds were NOT used. Not to mention the obvious "sandcast" finish, inside and out, where they were not machined. Permanent molds normally do not produce that "sandcast" finish and normally do not produce the variation these Sandcast crankcases exhibit. This link, http://www.meteorfoundry.com/blog/casting-competition-sand-castings-vs-permanent-mold-castings/ ,has a brief but pretty good explanation of the difference in the 2 mold types. Note the part about the surface finishes produced by permanent molds.

Powderman, we've been down this road previously: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,132595.msg1484942.html#msg1484942

Vic World is likely the most knowledgeable expert on the subject and he also concludes they used the sandcast molding process. Believe what you will but the evidence supports Sandcast!

Wow, Thanks for that link. I totally forgot about that conversation and don't really know why I showed so much interest in it at that time. I had forgotten that my brother had provided that info to me and helps answer a lot of questions I had pertaining to the bike. He has since passed away and I own all the bikes now. I was misinformed on a bunch of the info I provided. The Triumph was not a 69 Bonny, but a 70 Tiger. Didn't remember him explaining the wreck on the CB. When I physically looked at the cases the only thing I noticed was the usual broken case from broken chain repair.
Thanks again

I thought I remember reading you saying yours was 7419 and was definitely a sandcast, I must have read it wrong. I see there were differences between the 1st 1000 and later units of the sandcast, this was due primarily to the fact that the first 1000 units were made in Calif and then the rest in Japan.

[kmb69]

.....
I thought I remember reading you saying yours was 7419 and was definitely a sandcast, I must have read it wrong. I see there were differences between the 1st 1000 and later units of the sandcast, this was due primarily to the fact that the first 1000 units were made in Calif and then the rest in Japan.

That "first 1000 units were made in Calif" is also TOTAL BS. Never happened. Came from the same misinformed BS artist. ALL SOHC CB750's were made in Japan. I will try to find a link to quite a discussion on that subject as well.

[Tews19]

I've been on this site for jeeze 4 or 5 years now. KMB69 doesn't post much but if I were to be a betting man he is most likely the Sandcast expert here. I would go off what he states and now I am curious about his collection! Mind sharing a pic or two?

[kmb69]

I take that as a serious compliment Tews. Thank you. Not an expert, still learning, but I have been involved with the Sandcast since I assembled the first we got at Pasadena Honda in 1969. I LOVE them. They set the motorcycle world on it's head when they were introduced. The most advanced motorcycle to hit the planet at the time. Soichiro got it right! With a little help from Bob Jameson and Bob Young who were both visionaries as well.

My Sandcast collection numbers 22 bikes (a few disassembled but complete) and a few extra engines at this point in time counting one bike I still have to retrieve from Wisconsin. The bike shop is a real clutter right now but we are in the process of making it presentable. I just retired in January and we are working on it. Been focusing on the machine shop, Jr's rear wheel, and some other parts for the racers right now. A special NASA project interrupted everything for a couple of months but it's done now. Will post some pics before long.

[HondaMan]

.....
I thought I remember reading you saying yours was 7419 and was definitely a sandcast, I must have read it wrong. I see there were differences between the 1st 1000 and later units of the sandcast, this was due primarily to the fact that the first 1000 units were made in Calif and then the rest in Japan.

That "first 1000 units were made in Calif" is also TOTAL BS. Never happened. Came from the same misinformed BS artist. ALL SOHC CB750's were made in Japan. I will try to find a link to quite a discussion on that subject as well.

KM:
I have an interesting one: it is (E)#1007808, but the crankcases are clearly sandcast. It's my resto toy project (very slow). Yet, it uses the later-style oil pan, indicating it was the 'final' configuration. Very interesting! Do you have any special info about these "near-sandcast" ones? I hope to pull apart the engine this winter to see the insides and its curiosities as I make enough room to enshrine it, so I can start working on the rebuild.

[Restoration Fan]

My Sandcast collection numbers 22 bikes

[kmb69]

.....
I have an interesting one: it is (E)#1007808, but the crankcases are clearly sandcast. It's my resto toy project (very slow). Yet, it uses the later-style oil pan, indicating it was the 'final' configuration. Very interesting! Do you have any special info about these "near-sandcast" ones? I hope to pull apart the engine this winter to see the insides and its curiosities as I make enough room to enshrine it, so I can start working on the rebuild.

Very interesting indeed if they are truly Sandcast cases. Never heard, read, or seen anything about such a specimen. Is the engine number a factory stamped font? Does it have a 10 hole clutch cover? Be interesting to see if the insides appear to be Sandcast as well. Maybe it was sandblasted for repaint? Just guessing.

7419 is as smooth as a baby's butt coming out of the new diecast molds. The wizards over on the SOOC Forum have identified over 90 distinct differences that were made during the Sandcast run. Not all engine differences, but still shows Honda was developing along the way. Maybe they were prototype cases that were Sandcast to set up the changes in the manufacturing line. Again, just speculating. If they are Sandcast with later covers, it would be an EXTREMELY RARE specimen IMHO.

Please post some pictures.

[beemerbum]

Man, I love this site. Since getting involved with the CB750, most everything I know (not very much yet) comes from the folks who post here. Conversations, such as above, by knowlegeable enthusiasts keep me sitting at the Imac for hours! Thank you all!

[754]

Here s what i think.
 There was usually a numbers spread , between motor and frame.
 In some cases it was due to bikes being rejected off the assembly line.  Which might have meant installing new engine, and sending it off.
 The pulledengine then gets sorted out and goes back on the line..out of sequence.
 
 I often wondered if they kept a few for training, classroom purposes..

[Powderman]

Here s what i think.
 There was usually a numbers spread , between motor and frame.
 In some cases it was due to bikes being rejected off the assembly line.  Which might have meant installing new engine, and sending it off.
 The pulledengine then gets sorted out and goes back on the line..out of sequence.
 
 I often wondered if they kept a few for training, classroom purposes..

The frame and engine numbers never correlated to each other. They engines were made in one factory and the frames another. Then they went to the assembly plant where the next engine in nline got pulled for the frame they were working on. It is extremely rare to have a "numbers matching" CB 750. If anyone here has one I'd like to see pics of the VIN's.