Topic: Are these points still good? and how important is static timing?

[Kenzo]

Turning over the engine using the "nut" on the points end is right there in the service manuals, and I've been doing it for years with zero issues.

I think the problem is that people tend to push too hard on it, instead of easing it over carefully.

I'm more worried about stripping out the two little nub things where the back of that fake nut thing engages the advancer.

mystic_1

Does it say the plugs should be loosened or removed?

TIA,
Kenzo

[Deltarider]

Turning over the engine using the "nut" on the points end is right there in the service manuals, and I've been doing it for years with zero issues.

Same here and I never bothered to remove the plugs. When cold, turning is very easy. Mine is a CB500.

[mystic_1]

Turning over the engine using the "nut" on the points end is right there in the service manuals, and I've been doing it for years with zero issues.

I think the problem is that people tend to push too hard on it, instead of easing it over carefully.

I'm more worried about stripping out the two little nub things where the back of that fake nut thing engages the advancer.

mystic_1

Does it say the plugs should be loosened or removed?

TIA,
Kenzo

The manuals seem to be silent on this matter, i.e. I've never seen an instruction to remove the plugs first.

mystic_1

[ChopSticks]

Turning over the engine using the "nut" on the points end is right there in the service manuals, and I've been doing it for years with zero issues.

I think the problem is that people tend to push too hard on it, instead of easing it over carefully.

I'm more worried about stripping out the two little nub things where the back of that fake nut thing engages the advancer.

mystic_1

Does it say the plugs should be loosened or removed?

TIA,
Kenzo

The manuals seem to be silent on this matter, i.e. I've never seen an instruction to remove the plugs first.

mystic_1

Does the hondaman manual state anything about this? what actually happens if the plugs are still in the bike? I figured turning the motor clockwise is just a natural rotation of the engine movement

[grcamna2]

Turn the engine over very slowly w/ a wrench & it shouldn't bother it much w/ the compression.

[gregimotis]

I know some will scoff at new fangled gadgets but....

Replacing those points with Hondaman's or dyna s or any good electronic ignition will make your life easier from here on out.  Just putting it out there.

[jonda500]

I also have gently turned my engine both clockwise and counterclockwise by the big nut under the points cover without removing the plugs and it hasn't hurt it one bit. That's just in my experience... John

[Airborne 82nd]

I use the kick petal just take the slop out and bump it easy with your fist

[seanbarney41]

I use the kick petal just take the slop out and bump it easy with your fist

+1

[PeWe]

I check and adjust the points gap with a dwell meter when engine is running. Both will be exactly the same very easy. When I adjust 2-3, that point change ign timing when it is not as fixed as 1-4 point. Check dwell 2-3 again and ign with timing lamp. I have complete TEC points

Synced carbs and the engine will run very smooth.

just googled "dwell meter" and it looks very similar to a multimeter, how do you check the gap with a dwell meter and the engine running? Assuming dwell and timing light serve the same purpose?

This thread MRieck initiated made me to do the dwell
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,147444.msg1678696.html#msg1678696

[ChopSticks]

I know some will scoff at new fangled gadgets but....

Replacing those points with Hondaman's or dyna s or any good electronic ignition will make your life easier from here on out.  Just putting it out there.

Agreed, but one of the selling points of the HMI is that you can always revert back to the stock points set up worst case scenario and that the points need to be correctly set prior to implementation, so just want to make sure the ignition is in good working order prior to installing any new fangled gadgets 

[ChopSticks]

I use the kick petal just take the slop out and bump it easy with your fist

+1

What is the real difference from using the ignition nut or the kick pedal?

[therobbstory]

I know some will scoff at new fangled gadgets but....

Replacing those points with Hondaman's or dyna s or any good electronic ignition will make your life easier from here on out.  Just putting it out there.

+1 for the HondaMan box. Installed one a few weeks ago and not only is my bike idling like a well-oiled sewing machine, I got a raise at work, my girlfriend stopped complaining about how I spend more time with my bike than her, and I've lost fifteen pounds.

[ChopSticks]

just googled "dwell meter" and it looks very similar to a multimeter, how do you check the gap with a dwell meter and the engine running? Assuming dwell and timing light serve the same purpose?

This thread MRieck initiated made me to do the dwell
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,147444.msg1678696.html#msg1678696
[/quote]


Ahhhhhhh okay I think I have a better understanding now, so basically timing light is a more accurate way to adjust the points plate than the manual static timing and dwell meter is a more accurate way to adjust the points gap than using feeler gauges?

How do you adjust the gap with the engine running? I'd assuming the points are open/closing really fast no?

Also did you choose analog or digital dwell meter?

[flybox1]

Use your screwdriver in the notches, just as you do when adjusting the points gap with the engine off.

[seanbarney41]

I use the kick petal just take the slop out and bump it easy with your fist

+1

What is the real difference from using the ignition nut or the kick pedal?

absolutely no chance of bending or breaking the points shaft, plus you don't even need a wrench

[flybox1]

Before tightening down the small nut at the end of the advancer shaft, twist the advance unit clockwise, so the knock pin in the back of the advance unit has no play against the end of the crank.  Then snug down the nut on the end of the advance shaft.  With this setup, there is no pressure on the advancer shaft when turning the big nut.  All the pressure is on the knock pin.

True, using the kick lever is a smart choice.

[ChopSticks]

Before tightening down the small nut at the end of the advancer shaft, twist the advance unit clockwise, so the knock pin in the back of the advance unit has no play against the end of the crank.  Then snug down the nut on the end of the advance shaft.  With this setup, there is no pressure on the advancer shaft when turning the big nut.  All the pressure is on the knock pin.

True, using the kick lever is a smart choice.

So am I supposed to untighten the small nut before using the big nut to turn the motor?

Since I never did any of that to begin with, how can I tell if the points shaft is bent or broken?

[mystic_1]

NO!

Do not loosen the small nut, that's the only thing holding the big nut in place.  You'll break one or the other if you try to turn the motor over with the large nut when the small nut is loose.


The Flybox seems to have been talking about re-seating the advancer assembly onto the end of the crankshaft in such a way as to remove any play between it's locating pin and the hole it fits into (which there shouldn't be much to begin with). 

mystic_1

[mystic_1]

Oh, and if the advancer shaft was broken, the advancer assembly would fall off.

To check if it is bent, spin the motor with the starter while observing the end of the advancer assembly.  Does it wobble while it spins?  If so it's bent.

mystic_1

[grcamna2]

You can't go wrong by very slowly putting pressure on the end of the 'kicker' lever w/ your hand(especially if you have long arms )until your points line up w/ where you want them;a small 4" mirror in your left hand viewing the action of the points while you're crouching over the seat w/ your head(close to the seat) looking down to the left can help..
I think it will help if you loosen and check to see the advance unit is right in it's 'notches' where it should be & then make sure that your advancer is tightened down w/ the small bolt to the correct factory torque. Have you had the points plate off and serviced/lubed your advance mechanism and checked it for the correct spring tension & movement,etc. ?
I would do that before you set the points/dwell and timing.

[ChopSticks]

Oh, and if the advancer shaft was broken, the advancer assembly would fall off.

To check if it is bent, spin the motor with the starter while observing the end of the advancer assembly.  Does it wobble while it spins?  If so it's bent.

mystic_1

Thanks, just to clarify the advancer shaft / assembly, is just the big bolt I've been moving right?

https://www.google.com/search?q=advancer+shaft+cb750&biw=1280&bih=953&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjDzsbkvILLAhXGaRQKHaK_Cr8Q_AUIFCgB#imgrc=ZWPKTYOiJjELvM%3A

I've been trying to google before I ask newbie questions, but some of the results here so the shaft without the bolt at the end which I'm assuming is not a good idea to use the starter then but then again the video flybox linked shows it without the bolt on being spun by the starter

[mystic_1]

Well, the advancer shaft is this, it screws into the end of the crankshaft:


Onto this mounts the advancer assembly, then the large "nut" and then the smaller nut that holds it all in place:



It's just fine to spin the motor over with the advancer assembly removed, to check the runout of the shaft as shown in the video.

The key lesson here is that the large "nut" is really a cast metal shape that is somewhat thin where it engages the "ears" on the advancer assembly, and all of this is mounted on a fairly thin shaft, so it's important not to hulk out on it when turning the motor, or you can bend or break something.


The kick starter is not at a 1:1 ratio to the crankshaft, as it's geared to the clutch basket, which then turns the primary transmission shaft, which then spins the crankshaft via the primary chains.  With all that i find it annoying to turn the motor over that way, and if you go past your mark accidentally then you have to make a complete revolution to get lined up again.  I find it easier to sneak up on things slowly with the wrench on the "nut".


mystic_1

[ChopSticks]

Ah that makes much more sense now, I'll def check for any wobbling this weekend. Is it really that easy to bend the advance shaft?

[yellowjacket]

I am right at this same point with my CB550 and I do believe the shaft is bent.  Someone mentioned earlier that it could be straightened by double nutting it.  I am not familiar with this technique. How do I go about doing this.
thanks