Topic: 1972 CL350 Ground up Restoration

[mrbreeze]

Sweet lookin' scoot Seaweb! Hope mama enjoys it and you have good rides together!

[seaweb11]

The Saga continues. "This one has been a #$%*"

* New Carb kit put on just before Restoration.
* Stock exhaust
* Older air filters

The dealership had re-set the cam timing a week ago, so I assumed that the timing / electrical was looked after. Before the dealership re did the cam timing it ran quite
well in the lower to mid range, but couldn't get past the 5000-rpm range without the in/out cyl problems. Dealership was unable to test ride the results because I
did not have a seat on it the day I picked it up. (Long story) I live on an Island.

Got the seat on it and IT Still ran like a bag of nails!

Went into the carbs and set the float heights at 26 and tried again, they were off.  IT Still ran like a bag of nails!
Well now I have set the floats at 25 and put it all back together. This is the second re and re of carbs.
This time I checked the point gap and found them to be a tight .12 , I reset them at .15,  still withing the .12-.16 specs and it ran a bit better.

The problem as of now is as follows.
* Starts and idles nicely on both cylinders.
* Good spark off both plugs, based on grounding to cyl heads. Good blue spark between both plug and cyl
* In neutral, you can rev the #$%* out of it, but with a little bit of popping.

* Starting on a hill from my shop, as soon as you start to let the clutch out under load it seems to pop and complain.
* Once you have made it up the 15 ft.  slope, it cuts in and out in low gear getting to the end of the driveway, "still an incline".

* Starting out on a level road, you can get it going through the gears. BUT WITH LOTS of cutting in and out between one cylinder and two. If you hold on
long enough to get through the popping and cutting in and out, it smooths out NOW at 7000 rpms and will go on both cylinders like a bat out of Hell running
smooth till you drive like a normal person again. Then you are back to the on again...off again cylinder issue.

So close and yet so far.

Any thoughts on this would be most appreciated.

[Raul CB750K1]

I don't think you have a carb issue but an electrical issue. Check that the points wire to the coils are not grounded, that the connections are tight and clean and that the plug cap is well connected. After a test remove the plugs; if one is wet that is probably not firing. Also, check if the time advance unit works freely. A xenon light would definitely help. If it's stuck, the spark could be occurring very late, when the piston is in past TDC and the compression is not the highest. That would explain the good start but the poor performance.

Raul

[snorklefork]

i would also consider replacing the condenser if you haven't recently. when they wear out the symptoms resemble carb issues . they are easy to find on ebay and cheap...cheers

[seaweb11]

Thanks for the wise advise guys.

The Honda dealership Service Mgr. called me yesterday.   I told him I was disappointed with where the bike was left after their last look at it. He agreed I had already paid a fair amount to sort out a bike and asked that I return it and they would fit it in between other jobs at no charge.

 Better than a kick in the Ass I suppose. Dropped it off yesterday and will leave it with them for a bit and see what they come up with.

As I have indicated before, there is an old timer mechanic there who should be able to sort this final issue out.

[mrbreeze]

Right on Seaweb! Glad to hear they will stand by their work.You put alot into that bike and damn well deserve to get it straightened  out if the dealership got involved!!!!Hope ya'get good results.

[Raul CB750K1]

Well, I hope not to piss anybody off, but these bikes seem to me fair enough to fix. I wonder why, anybody able to tear down an engine, clean it, replace parts, and reassemble everything together, needs to take the bike to the mechanic to fix an erratic behaviour. Seaweb, weren't you able to try things before taking it to the mechanic? Or maybe you are just like me, short of time...


Raul

[seaweb11]

Well, I hope not to piss anybody off, but these bikes seem to me fair enough to fix. I wonder why, anybody able to tear down an engine, clean it, replace parts, and reassemble everything together, needs to take the bike to the mechanic to fix an erratic behaviour. Seaweb, weren't you able to try things before taking it to the mechanic? Or maybe you are just like me, short of time...
Raul

1st. I was in a rush to get the bike to a show when I initially took it in.
2nd. I'm tired of seeing it in my workshop instead of under my wifes ass
3rd.  It's been a 6 month project. "I'm kind of over it" mentally at least. You can only suck the gas out of the tank so many times. Each time the carbs needed another look, you have to completely disassemble the side exhaust and air filters...(8 times now?)
4th. I'm tired of seeing it in my workshop instead of under my wife's ass

No one pissed off here;D

[Raul CB750K1]

HAHAHAHAHA, Under your wife's ass, that's a good one!!!

I see your point. I also don't mind to take my car to the garage for the oil changes. I can do it, but I can't learn anything new and I rather spend the time shopping or whatever than changing the oil. I didn't think about the exhaust though; that would not happen had you bought a CB350... 

And I understand the mental fatigue. My CB350 is getting near the first year, and the frame parts are yet not painted nor is the engine reassembled. I'm crossing the borderline of the "basket case", that's when people get tired of the project and decide to sell it. Anytime I hurry to do anything on the bike, I sit down and say to myself "this is the moment where it's important not to rush things. Wait for the part to arrive. Use the right sealant. Better replace that tranny."

It helped a lot that I received yesterday a complete NOS rear mudguard and it's a beauty. When I saw it I could see the whole bike reassembled; it was a great moment.


Raul

[HondaMan]

This sounds like classic "350 carb-itis".

Look very closely at the diaphragms in the carbs. A pinhole leak or crack in the rubber will cause exactly the symptoms you describe. Also, mis-balanced cables (uneven) will cause this same set of symptoms.

Here's what happens sometimes in those carbs: they are a vacuum piston that should pull up about 1/2 second after any given throttle opening change (revving up). This lets the mix run rich briefly when jerking the throttle, stopping the famous "SuperHawk choke" of the slide carbs. BUT, if the cylinders are not perfectly balanced, one piston moves before the other, which, since the crankshaft ties them together by stroke, jerks the other up, while the first drops down slightly, and so the battle between them begins. Above 6000 RPM or so, the pistons are all the way up, so the problem goes away under load. With light loads, the piston movement doesn't make the rev changes so apparent.

Several things can cause this vacuum imbalance, here's my whole list:
1. Intake valves set too tight. Should be .002" to .004".
2. Tiny cracks or holes in the vacuum rubber diaphragms. Very common. Temporary relief can be had with rubber cement, especially a product called Walther's GOO (honest!), available from most model train or airplane shops. Dap some on the cracks, let it dry 24 hours first.
3. The seat of the diaphragm (the chromed top carb cover) may be leaking or the diaphragm may be pulled out of its sealing groove from age and shrinkage. These seats must be PERFECT.
4. The tiny passages that deliver vacuum to the top area of the carb (to lift the piston) may be blocked or partially blocked, causing slow piston response. These are especially tough to clean. Use very small wire, carb cleaner and some patience.
5. Make sure the cable operation is very smooth, even on both carbs, especially through the midrange. Back the idle screws all the way out, then adjust the slack on the cables until they are dead even at the beginning of throttle opening. Then adjust the slack out of each cable carefully until it is almost zero. Then set the idle screws. I think the standard setting was 3/4 turn from closed on the idle speed screws and 1 turn on the air mix screws.

These pistons were also prone to getting stuck in the bores when moving. This can be checked by removing the air filter and watching them while you rev the engine. They should move dead together, smooth and even, and never, never stick anywhere, or the "imbalance battle" begins. It's classic CB350....

[seaweb11]

Thank you very much Hondaman.

I really appreciate you taking a moment and offering your feed back. I have copy/pasted it into a folder of some of the other ideas.
Now at least I could be looking in the carbs for something in particular, not just general.

[bill440cars]

                     I totally see seawebs predicament with that bike. Sometimes a problem arises that keeps
           hounding you until you don't know which end is up. That's a good time for either some sound
           advice from a fellow SOHC4er or a local shop to cast theirs thoughts (or eyes, as the case may
           be) on the situation to be able to see what the solution is. If you keep trying to solve a pesky
           problem, you can get to the point that you're so bent out of shape, you can't see the what
           needs to be done. When I have something hassling me, 1st I back off and try to regroup (clear
           my head) and approach it again. If, after a few tries, I can't get past it I call on you guys and if
           that didn't work, then I might take it to a shop. I'm sure seaweb did what he felt he needed 
           to, all things considered. Maybe he canget things going after getting his response from
           HondaMan. Good Luck, seaweb, we hope you get this thing licked soon and get things back to
           normal (What ever that is)            Later on, Bill

[Raul CB750K1]

                     I totally see seawebs predicament with that bike. Sometimes a problem arises that keeps
           hounding you until you don't know which end is up. That's a good time for either some sound
           advice from a fellow SOHC4er or a local shop to cast theirs thoughts (or eyes, as the case may
           be) on the situation to be able to see what the solution is. If you keep trying to solve a pesky
           problem, you can get to the point that you're so bent out of shape, you can't see the what
           needs to be done. When I have something hassling me, 1st I back off and try to regroup (clear
           my head) and approach it again. If, after a few tries, I can't get past it I call on you guys and if
           that didn't work, then I might take it to a shop. I'm sure seaweb did what he felt he needed 
           to, all things considered. Maybe he canget things going after getting his response from
           HondaMan. Good Luck, seaweb, we hope you get this thing licked soon and get things back to
           normal (What ever that is)            Later on, Bill

Yeah, but it's so sad to work hard on a restoration, just to take the finished bike to the shop for something that maybe you would be able to find by yourself after a little struggle... I don't know, it is all or nothing for me. It's not the same to get some advice from friends or forum than to have somebody give the final touch. It's just my 2 cents...


Raul

[seaweb11]

In order to remove the gas tank, you have to suck every drop out due to a cross over hose under the tank that leaks gas every where...all over the new engine 5 times now!

I've discussed the issue with the pipes to get at the carbs.......This model bike is not the most work friendly once they are together

I have rebuilt it 8 times now, set the points, checked the plugs, rebuilt the carbs, looked, prodded, changed things here, changed things there. Since I had taken it to the dealership for the show because I was at wits end and out of time and they offered to look at it again at no charge, why would I still be re-and re-ing everything again. It's my bike, I built it, but I obviously #$%*ed up somewhere along the line and now I want it to run GREAT.  Not just so-so.

When I put up my last "help" post it was after 4 days of  trying on my own again, then the dealership called and said bring it back.

If the dealer locates a short somewhere, or anything for that matter, I will still be the happy builder/rider/husband of owner
As I indicated earlier, I have put all the advise into a folder and it will not go to waste.

[bill440cars]

         
                  If we could walk a mile in someone else's shoes, it'd give a whole new perspective. I'm sure seaweb would be more than happy to finish this on his own, and with HondaMan's input, He may just do it. I mean, check it out, seaweb, ProTeal and paulages (I think) ran into problems. It happens, sometimes they are easily solved and sometimes not. Haven't you ever had a problem that you just couldn't pin down? I have and when it was finally discovered, I was really amazed that I didn't figure it out sooner. I just think anyone who goes through a bike, the way the guys on this site do, deserve credit and not harassed because something stumps them. It could happen to anybody. Myself, I give them credit for being totally honest about the situation. They could have left that part out. They didn't and then they are hit on for taking the problem to a shop. Come on, give them a break. Later on, Bill

[ohiocaferacer]

...beem me over Scottie!!!

If only I could Start Trek it over there......not saying I could fix it......but i'd love to try....esp on a gem like the Seaweb jewel.

Sometimes I feel like a crack addict when it comes to these bikes......wheres my next fix?

Greg

[Raul CB750K1]

How about plugging both crossover pipes until the bike is finished? It only makes a difference when the bike is running out of fuel, and that way the removal would be much easier...

Raul

[Hyseman]

I just bought a 72 CL350 from a guy I work with. It was given to him by a relative after her husband died. Payed only $75.00 for the bike. 2 problems the bike is completely torn down and the motor has been re-built (good thing). But no one can find the title. I live in Ohio and have been told the only way I can get a new title is to have the original owner get it not the spouse. Does any one know where I can get a good frame with a clean title?

[Raul CB750K1]

Search in the general forum, there are lots of thread about getting a title for an old bike without having to replace the frame


Raul

[Green550F]

In Iowa a person can get a "Bonded" title. Basically you are issued a title with a 2 year insurance pollicy costing 2X the value of the vehicle.  If someone comes up with a valid claim on the vehicle, they collect on the bond. Either way you keep the vehicle and are issued a fresh title at the end of the bonding period.

This was done with my grandmother's 66 Fairlane after the estate was closed and the title was found to be messed up.

[seaweb11]

Update on bike:
The bike has been at the shop since my last post as the dealer had said bring it back and we will fix it.

Seems I didn't rinse out that spanky newly painted "cleaned"  tank as well as I should have. My carb re-build was for not, as some crap got past the screen on my 1st few weeks attempts at getting it running well. I did clean the filter, but it was to late.

They ordered another carb rebuild kit.....5 days.......kit was missing some parts....ordered a couple of other missing pieces.......5 more days.

Still not right.
I took them a spare set of carbs for 2 parts still needing attention and no longer available.
They then found a ground issue with the condenser. Finally the bike ran well

Not the end yet.
I had had some difficulty in shifting gears when I was finished and was trying to get it to run right.
Turns out the gear shift drum had a piece broken off of it, a screw had undone itself and fallen down into the poo at some time in this bikes past. I had not gone that deep in my project during the winter as it had worked before the breakdown.

They split the cases and I brought them a spare drum I had from one of the 3 bikes I started with.
Looks like it will be done by Saturday.

For the builder purists I apologise, I was at the end of my rope.
I would NEVER have figured out the condenser ground problem. I am no electrician, but I have rebuilt 2 wiring harnesses. Some of the stuff they did on the carbs was beyond my experience. I couldn't  and wouldn't have solved it.

There's some stuff I can do and some stuff I haven't learned well enough yet.
I know my limitations, and after 6 months in my shop I really just want the wife to ride.

I'm out of here..............don't rag me, I told the truth

photo is the replacement, not the broken one,

[scunny]

there is no shame in knowing when your beaten, it's enough to have tried.
or words to that effect, should be sweet when you finish it.

[mrbreeze]

Hey you know Seaweb....you are one of my favorite posters here.You can admit when you're beat and get on with it(it does'nt matter...you got stumpted!!!!You pressed on ,got it fixed and even learned something new!!!)Hope the 350 turns out as cool as the 750.

[ohiocaferacer]

Dude....your A+ in my book!!!!

Keep in touch,
Greg

[bill440cars]

there is no shame in knowing when your beaten, it's enough to have tried.
or words to that effect, should be sweet when you finish it.

Hey you know Seaweb....you are one of my favorite posters here.You can admit when you're beat and get on with it(it doesn't matter...you got stumped!!!!You pressed on ,got it fixed and even learned something new!!!)Hope the 350 turns out as cool as the 750.

Dude....your A+ in my book!!!!

Keep in touch,
Greg

            What else is there to say? These guys beat me to it. It's a very small person who won't admit it when they hit a snag. I'd venture to say that there might be some who'd take it to someone else and never tell but, Nobody's perfect. Everybody has something that they are really good at and things that they aren't good at. That's life.
            After all is said & done, You've done very well and should be proud of what you've accomplished.                                            Later on, Bill